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Post 20

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 5:57pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the comments. I have also considered moving to NH, not in small part because of the Free State project.

When I lived in Maine, I found it to be extremely gay-friendly in the places I went - I lived in a couple towns in S. Maine and traveled around quite a bit, although not to the very back (north) wood much. I had a few gay couple friends who lived just over the border in NH and thought all was quite well for them. And took some classes in Durham and found it to be fine. It is worth considering that most of the places I traveled I had gay friends so maybe they just settled in the friendlier areas of Maine, NH, Vermont, and Mass. And I suppose that many people are more tolerant of lesbians than gay men. I am not sure what to say except that this doesn't describe my experiences.

Post 21

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 6:28pmSanction this postReply
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Is any country's land for sale? Land one could live on?
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 10/01, 6:28pm)


Post 22

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Forget all this B.S. about trying to work within existing political structures. Buy a country, be a shareholder and become a Founding Father..

http://solohq.com/Articles/Hibbert/Cutting_the_Gordian_Knot_-_A_Hypothetical_Press_Conference_with_Donald_Trump.shtml

Sam



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Post 23

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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Bleh. Screw Galt's Gulch. Imma build me a spaceship.

Sarah

Post 24

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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"Is any country's land for sale? Land one could live on?"

Not explicitly, that I know of.

But would Canada turn down 1 billion dollars for like 20 square miles of otherwise-not-inhabited or marginally inhabited land? Why WOULDNT they sell unused land of no use? They have plenty of it. And what about Mexico? They have more land than they have billions. I'd prefer Canadian land to avoid the immigration issue. I would think former Americans starting a new nation on former-American soil would be too great a threat to American powers-that-be. So buy some land and start your own country. Didn't the US buy land in the Louisiana Purchase? SAme concept. Might be the only peaceable founding of a nation in the history of civilization.

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Post 25

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 8:14pmSanction this postReply
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"Bleh. Screw Galt's Gulch. Imma build me a spaceship."

Good idea, but Malcom Reynolds already throught of it on Firefly. We aint there technologically, yet.

What about land just north of Maine?

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Post 26

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
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In the event I can't afford to purchase Colorado, I certaintly plan on buying one of these:


Post 27

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Good idea, but Malcom Reynolds already throught of it on Firefly. We aint there technologically, yet."
I never said it was an original idea. :P

As for the technology, if it means getting a spaceship the only thing that'll stop me from creating the technology is me.

Those islands are looking pretty good though. Hmm... decisions, decisions.

Sarah

(Edited by Sarah House
on 10/01, 8:45pm)


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Post 28

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 9:04pmSanction this postReply
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I would want to take Cuba.

After all, it can be rationalized that Cuba isn't run right. We (as an Objectivist militia) could fly over and drop brochures, giving residents 2 months to get out or at least get into pre-defined areas that we won't attack.

As the nation isn't free, it is morally okay to invade it. We invade and take over -- using as much force as is necessary to remove the collectivists there. Remember, the long-range goal is the increasing of human happiness. Some humans are likely to die, but it is worth it. The humans that are left will TRULY live.

Needs List:

-somewhere between 1 billion and 1 trillion dollars (to pay for the weapons, etc. -- necessary for successful invasion/takeover)

-the pre-agreement of about a dozen corporations (food, medicine, etc)

-the pre-agreement of at least 1 thousand initial settlers (with another 10 thousand more, after the 'takeover' dust has settled)

That is it. It (Cuba) is there for the (moral) taking. We only need procure the 3 needs above. Heaven awaits.

Ed

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Post 29

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 9:44pmSanction this postReply
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As the nation isn't free, it is morally okay to invade it.
You can't actually believe that, do you?  If so, I'm aghast.


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Post 30

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

============
"As the nation isn't free, it is morally okay to invade it."

You can't actually believe that, do you?  If so, I'm aghast.
============

Be aghast, Robert, be very, very aghast. Just as it was morally okay (but not optimal) to invade Iraq -- it is morally okay (and perhaps optimal) for freethinkers to invade/colonize Cuba.

Unapologetic,

Ed


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Post 31

Saturday, October 1, 2005 - 10:33pmSanction this postReply
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If there are any morally superior extra terrestrials following this thread please do not invade my planet. Only Ed is saying this.

As for his country, be my....be his guest.



ps has your brain gone on holiday or what?!


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Post 32

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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The Isle of Merit would be a wonderful place for Galt's Gulch.  It is a beautiful island off Florida's Atlantic coast. There is already an active Objectivist Club as well as a space center nearby.

Kat


Post 33

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Just as it was morally okay (but not optimal) to invade Iraq
Oh my.  We so very much disagree... but this is not the place for that discussion.


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Post 34

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 8:52amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

=============
If there are any morally superior extra terrestrials following this thread please do not invade my planet. Only Ed is saying this.

As for his country, be my....be his guest.
=============

Hold the analogy Rick, hold it tight and don't let it go. My analogy -- if held tight -- would look like this:

Morally superior E.T.s drop leaflets onto planet Earth. The leaflets instruct people -- people who would be willing to live under free market capitalism -- to gather into safe-zones. The aliens invade and set up a fully-free world. I don't understand why you don't understand the moral superiority here.


Robert,

=============
Oh my.  We so very much disagree... but this is not the place for that discussion.
=============

Robert, I don't see much room for any lengthy discussion about this (unless you're not an Objectivist). Rand's reasoning on war & dictatorship supports my stance. Dictatorships don't even deserve sovereignty.

Ed




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Post 35

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
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Ed, instead of "invading" Cuba, maybe it would be better to follow the steps of the Jews in the Middle East. We settle in an area, and defend ourselves. When individuals want more land, they can purchase it from surrounding individuals. Of course the locals can join too.

We move in peacefully, the Cuban government attacks us, now we have the world on our side.

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Post 36

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

Well ... allllllriiiiiiight. I guess we could take the slower path to human happiness. It's just that I was getting impatient with my own country, that's all.

Ed

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Post 37

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Robert, I don't see much room for any lengthy discussion about this (unless you're not an Objectivist).
One thing I love about Objectivists is that the moment someone disagrees, an Objectivist's default reaction is to throw down the "you're not a REAL Objectivist" card.  I've seen it going on for at least 25 years.  That's what caused the Libertarian Party to slide into irrelevance, and that's what has caused the schisms in Objectivism for decades upon decades.
 
How sad.


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Post 38

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 10:31amSanction this postReply
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I think Rand meant that the government of a dictatorship could be attacked morally, I don't think she meant that the "liberator" could seize the land entirely. Obviously, you can't claim the citizen's homes and such or any private property that may exist.

Post 39

Sunday, October 2, 2005 - 6:20pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, you and I, we don't seem to get along very well. Perhaps you have taken me to be sarcastically disagreeing with you, and not just disagreeing with you (this is a problem with typed correspondence but, even if relevant here -- I would only be willing to take half the blame for it).

To your comments about me (about who l am, or what I do, or what I stand for), which you've gathered from this short interaction with me, I would like to add something (I'm presuming that this is an instance where I would be allowed to speak up for myself -- instead of just taking the accusations that you are willing to shove up my ass). I would like to add that I do, admittedly, err on the rationalistic side of a perfect integration and implementation (of Objectivism -- into my life). I can tell if and when things are perfect (which is both a benefit and a curse), and I can tell that I've been imperfect, and even 'how much' I've been imperfect (how far I've missed the mark).

What you say of me misses the mark. In a knee-jerk reaction, you've accused me of knee-jerk reacting. Robert, one thing I don't have (or want) is control over you -- or your reactions to things in life. I don't want control of whether you are allowed to speak about something. I don't want control over whether you are allowed to carry a discussion wherever it leads. Note how this makes me, fundamentally, different from notable Randroids of which you spoke -- who disavow others and schism.

What I would like from you -- and I can only request it, I cannot force it on you -- is to weight any conclusions/judgments about me as a person (ie. moral judgments), more heavily than you would weight judgment of mere arguments that spring from my head. Trash my arguments first and, if successful, then -- and ONLY THEN -- trash me. The "successful" argument-trashing is an important stop-gap that allows for me to explain myself. You have here acted as if you had no interest in allowing me a chance to explain my behavior.

You may say that I merely did the same to you (and that I "did it" first!), but what was missed was my subtle wording -- complete with its own stop-gap for prevention of escalation in rancor:

I said ...
===================
I don't see much room for any lengthy discussion
===================

... which breaks down (under pressure from opposition) to ...
===================
"I don't see" (I'm sharing MY view, not THE view)
"much room for any lengthy discussion" (which is specifically not: "NO room for ANY discussion")
===================

To recap: I respectfully request that you -- in any future interactions with me -- weight moral judgments heavier than the judgments about the arguments/ideas.

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 10/02, 6:25pm)


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