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Post 120

Saturday, October 8, 2005 - 2:30pmSanction this postReply
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Rich, clearly you define "Christianity" differently then I do.

Post 121

Sunday, October 9, 2005 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
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Anyways... Would You Move to Galt's Gulch?

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Post 122

Sunday, October 9, 2005 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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  I moved the religion portion of this thread here since it is a major digression from the original topic.  I apologize for my complicity in the hijacking!  :-) 

(Edited by Pete on 10/09, 6:14pm)

(Edited by Pete on 10/09, 6:15pm)

(Edited by Pete on 10/09, 9:16pm)


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Post 123

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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Glenn,
I don’t follow this logic.  Dean is stating his opinion about “sex without marriage”; he says that it is ridiculous.  That is his opinion, based (I assume) on his objectivist orientation.  What is the relevance of the Catholic viewpoint to what Dean says?
Clearly the context of Dean's statement was that he thought the Christian beliefs regarding sex and marriage were ridiculous.  Because I understand the Catholic position on the matter, which is the most rigorous among the Christian denominations, I pointed out that the belief is not ridiculous from a Catholic perspective.  Because no Catholic advocates that anyone but a Catholic adhere to the discipline of no sex outside marriage, Dean is left with ridiculing the personal choices of others that are none of his business.  I think an Objectivist should know better than to poke his nose into the bedrooms of others.
Likewise, Jody is saying that, from an objectivist point of view, belief in God is arbitrary and mystical.  What is the relevance of the Christian’s viewpoint to what Jody says?  The fact that Christians consider God to be the answer to the question of why we exist has no bearing on the objectivist idea that belief in God is arbitrary and mystical.  And this is what I take Jody to be supporting.

Again, Glenn, Jody's remarks were about what Christians believe.  His ridicule is premised upon the fact that Christians answer a metaphysical question that Objectivists don't think needs an answer.  He's going to have to do better than before dismissing a couple billion people as adherents to an evil creed.

 

And speaking of that, let's get to the bottom of this.  It's more than silly for Objectivists to frivolously pronounce Christianity to be evil.  By doing so it lessens the judgment to be passed upon genuine evil such as the murderous creed of Communism that rationalized the slaughter of 100 million in the past century.  It also paints in shades of gray the evil of the Islamists.  It's the same sort of wretchedness that sucks the evil out of rape when radical feminists decry all sex as rape.  Furthermore, it alienates rational theists who are in more agreement than not with Objectivist metaphysics, ethics, politics, and aesthetics.  It is a lack of benevolence that reduces one to a miser of goodwill.  (See my upcoming article for more on that point.)  Such a foolish judgment enlightens no one and produces nothing of value for anyone.

 

Andy


Post 124

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 12:19pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,
I think it doesn't lead to constructive discussion to try and blur CHRIST-ianity into a definition of deism.
I agree, which is why I criticized you for damning Christians for nothing more than their belief in God.  As I said you'll have to do better.

What I'll also say is that I don't see the point.  I understand the threat that Communism had posed and its malignant Marxist offspring in postmodernism, multiculturalism, etc. continue to pose.  Show me an environmentalist and I'll show you a fascist who'll let me keep my property so long as I use it the way the state dictates.  And they are winning.  Hell, they've already won.  Small property owners have been bankrupted by fines and have actually gone to prison in this country for draining swamps.

Show me anyone who's in jail because Christians want this or that taught in state-run schools their children are forced to attend.  Show me how anyone has been persecuted because some town put a creche in front of city hall during Christmas.  Identify one single person in the United States that has been coerced through the government to practice a belief he does not hold.

So, whatever negative critique you and I can make of Christian beliefs, at the end of the day, they are no threat.  Meanwhile, the Marxists have hoisted new flags and are continuing to win their battles for control of the state.  Reality must dictate upon whom we focus our attention.  Making a fuss over Christianity is a useless distraction.

Andy


Post 125

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,
I told you my definition of Christianity. I pronounced no such thing. If a person who doesn't meet my definition of Christianity claims to be a Christian, then they are using the word with a different meaning then what I define it as.
Well, yes, I suppose you can define words any which way you want, but that would be subjectivist.  Of course, if you want to define Objectivism as subjectivism, you can win this argument too. ;-)
If I used a Christian's definition of "evil" to describe the belief in Christianity, that would be nutty.
Interesting.  What is the Christian definition of "evil"?

Andy


Post 126

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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[anything that is not Christian]


Post 127

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah,
Second, given the choice between vacuum fluctuation and a being in the sky as the cause of the universe, which one makes more sense: the one that we can test in a lab or the one that we'll only be able to find through faith?
A thought experiment for you.  Have you ever read Abbott's Flatland?  What if our universe were Flatland and God the sphere?

What if our universe has more than three spatial dimensions (as M-theory claims) or exists within a higher dimensional space (as the brane hypothesis suggests)?  Maybe there's already some evidence of these higher dimensions.  What if gravity appears so weak in the three dimensions of our universe compared to the other three forces, because most of its force leaks out into higher dimensions?

Because electro-magnetism, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force operate only within three-dimensional space, they can't be used to detect other dimensions.  Yet, if gravity is being sapped out by higher dimensions, they do have a profound effect upon our universe.  But we can't test for any of this.  We may never be able to test for any of it.  Does than make M-theory or the brane hypothesis irrational?

All I am saying is that there may exist a realm of reality - i.e., higher dimensional space - that we cannot detect but may have a profound effect upon us - i.e., draining the force of gravity.  Is it possible that reality is a lot wilder than any of us have considered?

Andy


Post 128

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 12:44pmSanction this postReply
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No cheating, Robert.  Dean has to answer this one on his own. ;-)

Andy


Post 129

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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This would answer that, and without postulating any 'higher' realm...
           http://www.bigbangneverhappened.org/


Post 130

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Thanks for the link.  I've heard a little about plasma cosmology, but I don't know much about it.  I'll have to read up on it to discuss it intelligently with you.  However, I do note that the objections Lerner raised to the Big Bang seem to be about the standard model, which I agree is pretty creaky.  Inflation cosmology, which may or may not require a big bang, answers most of Lerner's objections and is now evidenced by the extraordinary match between its predictions about small variations in the CBR and recent observations.

Andy


Post 131

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 1:15pmSanction this postReply
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post moved to quarantine thread...


(Edited by Sarah House
on 10/10, 1:21pm)


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Post 132

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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Show me anyone who's in jail because Christians want this or that taught in state-run schools their children are forced to attend.  Show me how anyone has been persecuted because some town put a creche in front of city hall during Christmas.  Identify one single person in the United States that has been coerced through the government to practice a belief he does not hold.

So, whatever negative critique you and I can make of Christian beliefs, at the end of the day, they are no threat.  Meanwhile, the Marxists have hoisted new flags and are continuing to win their battles for control of the state.  Reality must dictate upon whom we focus our attention.  Making a fuss over Christianity is a useless distraction.
Linz posted an article today showing you someone who was in jail due to Christian legislation of morality.  What about the constant war to take away the right to abortion?  What about those prosecuted under the anti-prostitution laws, the anti-sodomy laws, the anti-polygamy laws, the anti-gambling laws, anti-porn laws, "indecency" laws....  What about those of us who would like to get drunk on the revered "day of the lord", but would be prosecuted for buying alcoholic beverages on this day(along with the person who sold them to us)?  Do you think all of these laws stem from Marxism?

So, whatever negative critique you and I can make of Christian beliefs, at the end of the day, they are no threat.
You honestly believe this?  You also posited the Catholic Church as being a to-each-his-own branch of Christianity.  Are you honestly saying that the Catholic Church has made no attempt to insure that our laws are not a direct plagiarism of their 'infallible' interpretation of Biblical law?

Any belief system that relegates metaphysics to the fiat of a god and relegates epistemology to divine revelation is nothing but a philosophy that can lead to a correct logic(based upon the their own premises) that calls for the killing of the infidels.  The Marxist, the pomo's, and any religion is dangerous because they have thrown away objective reality and reason.  Once you do this, any irrational belief goes as long as the guru is convincing enough.


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Post 133

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Jody,

You have it correct. Irrational doctrine is evil. Period. It doesn't matter what flavor it is.

The wars that have been fought in the name of Christianity (including wholesale slaughter of natives who did not convert during colonizations), and so many other disgraces during mankind's history should have relegated it to the trash bin centuries ago. The Spanish Inquisition alone should have been reason enough to abolish the Catholic Church.

A problem arises because most Christians are hypocrites (thank God), and do not take their religion to its final consequences. Sometimes fanatics do. But the irrational monster in the doctrine is always there waiting for someone to read it and proclaim that the true way is that.

What makes Christianity so hard is that many hypocritical Christians are really nice and good people.

But the war is ideological and needs to be fought in black and white terms. There are no lesser degrees when faith and the irrational are proclaimed to be superior to reason and a reality outside the one we live in is proclaimed to be vastly superior.

Sometimes the worst enemy is the one who smiles and is nice before killing.

Michael

Post 134

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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"A problem arises because most Christians are hypocrites (thank God)".
Lol, nice paradox. And yes, the smiling ones can be the biggest threat.
(Reminds me of Helen Lovejoy on the Simpsons: " I won't judge you, that's for an angry God to decide." And why is it that the pastor's children are usually the troublemakers?)

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Post 135

Monday, October 10, 2005 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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Andy wrote: "... it alienates rational theists..."

A theist cannot be rational, unless your talking about rationalism when you say "rational".


Joe wrote "And why is it that the pastor's children are usually the troublemakers?"

It's a sterio-type. : ) Could it be because they are so used to basing their ethics on rules, that they are not against doing something troublesome when a rule doesn't apply? Naw, its because they are sick of living under the ridiculous rules of their parents!

Post 136

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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A problem arises because most Christians are hypocrites (thank God),

Great statement Michael!  Very true.


Post 137

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 8:30amSanction this postReply
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Anyways... Would You Move to Galt's Gulch?

Only if they had a good broadband connection, and somewhere to buy guitar strings...


A lot of the statements made about Xstianity get caught up because they confuse, among other things, organized religion with individual religious consciousness. It's a baby and bathwater thing.

I've said it before- when you look at something like Christianity, you're dealing with a meta-term. A religion that started and grew out somewhere in the Middle East that then got worked into a legal system in Rome. That then spread through Europe as a culture. And so forth. There were also some extremely sharp splits in theological doctrine (Unitarians vs. Trinitarians, damnation/sin vs. universal salvation, etc., etc.).

So, when you make broad statements about it, they don't stand a chance of being fully inclusive.

But I don't think that's what any of this a really about. Andy's got it.


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Post 138

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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A theist cannot be rational, unless your talking about rationalism when you say "rational".

Bonk!


Post 139

Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 2:12pmSanction this postReply
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Use your guts, Rich - make your own strings...

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