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Post 80

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 8:33pmSanction this postReply
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I find Christianity's teachings very close to Objectivism.
Premise of Objectivism:
Existence exists. I have consciousness. A is A.

Premise of Christianity:
God exists.

Primary goal of an individual practicing Objectivism:
To maximize one's own values, and through harmony of interest increase other's ability to acquire their values.

Primary goal of an individual practicing Christianity:
To maximize God's values, and through giving up your own values and requiring your values to be the same as God's, still maximize God's values and hence maximize "your" (forced) values.

Post 81

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Dean, go for it. I want to see this.
(Sorry, selling wolf tickets...I'm instigating. Bad, bad...).
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 10/05, 8:57pm)


Post 82

Wednesday, October 5, 2005 - 11:39pmSanction this postReply
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=============
an Auckland bookshop called Aristotle's that isn't there anymore.
=============

well, shame on NZ (if predominant culture was involved in the demise of a "bookshop called Aristotle's")!


=============
Yeah, Ed - you did it peacefully...
=============

Yes Robert, though I have not left 'every' interlocuter at peace in doing it ...

Ed


Post 83

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 2:08amSanction this postReply
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I don't know what to say about folks such as yourself though (apparently healthy, attractive, sense of humor, kind, witty).

I do. Make "apparently" into "apparently" in the case of this person.
 
Rick, methinks thou dost protest too much.
You come from a similar part of the world -- but do you know her, Rick?

I got my Phil Donahue interviews and a swag of other material from an Auckland bookshop called Aristotle's that isn't there anymore.
 
well, shame on NZ (if predominant culture was involved in the demise of a "bookshop called Aristotle's")!
If you would please lay the weight of that sentiment onto the word "apparently" in the above context, my work here is done.


Post 84

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

You'll have to do better than simply make up what you think Christianity is to be persuasive.  I don't think there is a Christian out there who would recognize what you claim to be Christianity.  That goes double for certain ex-Christians who have put a lot of thought into it.

Seeing that you made a hash a few weeks ago about the fundamentals of Objectivist ethics, perhaps it's not a surprise you have done the same with Christian beliefs.  You'll recall that you thought Objectivist ethics sanctioned murder if your survival was at stake.  Unlike that issue, I'm not interested in discussing how well Christianity does or does not compare with Objectivism.

The purpose of my response is nothing more than advice in making a good argument.  You'll not be persuasive unless you counter Christianity's strongest arguments.  Trying to dress Christianity in Objectivist terms and then announce that the clothes doesn't fit is at best preaching to the choir.  If you want a Christian to listen to you, you'll need to address what he actually believes in terms he's familiar with.

Whether or not that exercise is worth your time and trouble is another matter.

Andy


Post 85

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 10:50amSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Ed! I missed this!

For the record, though, I am not a Christian. I booked out of there when I was 12. I'm a Unitarian Universalist, in terms of belonging to a religious community. But I have only my personal religious consciousness, and those bear no names.

best,
rde


Post 86

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Madeline isn't afraid to stick her finger in the fan:

I find Christianity's teachings very close to Objectivism.
 
Good girl. Me too. Now, brace for impact.

Blessed be


“If the mystical truth that comes to a man proves to be a force that he can live by, what mandate have we of the majority to order him to live in another way?                                   -William James



(Edited by Rich Engle on 10/06, 10:59am)


Post 87

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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to answer James - because the others claim the same, even as theirs' is different to yours... and causes strife to you and yours'...

Post 88

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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Primary goal of an individual practicing Christianity:
To maximize God's values, and through giving up your own values and requiring your values to be the same as God's, still maximize God's values and hence maximize "your" (forced) values.


In a very, very crude way, that could be an accurate statement, if you left the  whole "giving up" thing and "forced" out of it.

You also have to realize that there are many Christians who aren't even deists or creationists. And I wouldn't go for a "Bible says" response- that is just more of the same, really. If there is one thing that personal religious consciousness is not about, it's being forced or giving up. That's totally 180.





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Post 89

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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CHRISTIANITY AND OBJECTIVISM DO NOT MIX. RAND WAS THE ANTICHRIST.

Have you READ Atlas Shrugged? John Galt is the Jesus who would not be sacrificed, the Prometheus who broke his chains, the Titan who shrugged.

Post 90

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 8:49pmSanction this postReply
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Rich,

"In a very, very crude way, that could be an accurate statement, if you left the whole 'giving up' thing and 'forced' out of it."

I call it "forced" because the people who made up God threaten that if you don't do what he wants, and not do what he doesn't want, God will torture you for eternity (minus whatever "salvation" counteracts).

What happens when a person is "sinning", but he doesn't know it, then he finds out God doesn't wan't him to do it, so he stops, for only that reason? Why does the person end that behavior? Is it because they have now realized the behavior isn't best for them? Well maybe they are choosing what is best for them, under the premise that if they don't do it, they will be tortured for eternity after this life.

From what I just discovered (not novel I'm sure), Objectivism could be compatible with Christianity, given the following:

Objectivism includes the idea that you should only base your decisions on your knowledge base (but less thinking and more doing when time is critical), and that your knowledge base should be based on facts and consistent inductive evidence. So if a Christian somehow knows "God exists" is true from such a knowledge base... then yep, a Christian can be an Objectivist. Haha, an Objectivist who's values are forced to be another's by the threat of eternal torture of maximum unhappiness, (and promoted by eternal perfect happiness).

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Post 91

Thursday, October 6, 2005 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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But Galt! No sex without marriage? Ridiculous. No same sex intimate love/sex? Ridiculous. That God chose himself being killed as the way to make sins be removable from men: ridiculous. Requiring that you must believe that Jesus was God and died on the cross for you, and that you accept him as a savior, to be saved? Ridiculous. That he gave men that option after 4000 years of not, ridiculous. That he exists, but doesn't actually communicate with me, or show me any reliable evidence that he exists, ridiculous. That he said he was coming "soon", but hasn't come after more than 2000 years? Ridiculous. That he made the earth, fossil record, universe, etc... evident to be much older than billions of years, but thinks we'll ignore that and believe the Bible, ridiculous. That Moses existed and did what the bible says even though the Romans made no record of such a thing anywhere... ridiculous. That Jesus existed and things happened as said in the bible without the Jews in power making a record of it, ridiculous...

I could go on-- but enough. Now, how could adding "the Christian God exists" and "the Bible is true" to your knowledge base result in one that is fully consistent? The answer: you must throw out things of reality that are well supported by evidence.

Madeleine Flannagan, why have you added "the Christian God exists" and "the Bible is true" to your knowledge base?

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Post 92

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Dean,
No sex without marriage? Ridiculous.
Why is that ridiculous for a Catholic, for instance, who believes sex is more fulfilling by following that discipline?  Why do you assume what is ridiculous for you is ridiculous for everyone else?
That he made the earth, fossil record, universe, etc... evident to be much older than billions of years, but thinks we'll ignore that and believe the Bible, ridiculous.
Ridiculous except that most Christians are not Biblical literalists who believe the world was created in 4004 B.C.
That Moses existed and did what the bible says even though the Romans made no record of such a thing anywhere... ridiculous.
The Romans didn't exist at the time Moses is claimed to have existed (circa 1300 B.C.).  They were of no consequence until at least a thousand years later.
I could go on-- but enough.
Yes, you could go on making it plain you have ignored my advice.  Knock down all the straw men you want, Dean, but what's the point?  You do no service to Objectivism, if promoting it is your purpose, by recycling this village atheist humbug.  You are not on solid ground in your ridicule of Christian beliefs.  So why do it?  All it exposes is your angst over the beliefs of others that pose no threat to you (regardless of the paranoid tales that Adam Reed has mortgaged his sanity to)?  You are building walls against which you need no defense.

I'll tell you this.  It is irrational to get upset because a Christian like Madeliene finds a large well of truth in Objectivism.  You always benefit by another knowing the truth rather than rejecting it.  It is the mark of an Objectivist truly confident in his grasp of Ayn Rand's philosophy that he can identify the common truths expressed in other beliefs rather than muster righteous indignation (which sometimes is barely concealed fear) over the differences.

Andy


Post 93

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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Dean,

(Seinfeld impression) "Who are these people?" :) "...The people who made God".

You are focusing on a pretty specific segment of Christianity. Basically, you're working off of a Fundamentalist view.


Post 94

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
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No one has stopped to ask Madeliene what she means when she says "Christianity" since she has made it clear that she disagrees with Rand. Wacky idea here, how about we ask her?

Sarah

Post 95

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Madeleine said:

As you can imagine I disagree with Rand's portrayal of Christianity in Atlas Shrugged, while some branches of Christianity are like that, as someone with more than a token interest in theology I find Christianity's teachings very close to Objectivism.
The words "Christian" and "Christianity" do not appear in Atlas Shrugged.  The terms "religion" and "religious" appear once each, and in both cases not in a negative way.  The term "faith" appears often, but in most cases with a nonreligious meaning (as in, I have faith in you).  So, I'm not sure what Maleleine means by Rand's portrayal of Christianity in Atlas Shrugged.
Thanks,
Glenn




Post 96

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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I think this is correct. Atlas isn't the place where you find that kind of thing.

She mainly used the term mysticism when she wrote about things in that area.


Post 97

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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I would say that Galt's speaking of the Garden of Eden and the essence of what is the Christian view of man's relationship to God speaks much regarding Christianity - you cannot have Christianity without the Cross, and cannot have the Cross without the Original Sin gambit of the Garden of Eden, and that bespeaks not of just the fundamentalists, but of all who call themselves Christians...

Post 98

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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For the record, the Garden of Eden story comes from the Old Testament, which both Christians and Jews purport to believe (maybe Moslems, too).

Peter

(Edited by Peter Reidy on 10/07, 2:23pm)

(Edited by Peter Reidy on 10/07, 2:24pm)


Post 99

Friday, October 7, 2005 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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I would say that Galt's speaking of the Garden of Eden and the essence of what is the Christian view of man's relationship to God speaks much regarding Christianity - you cannot have Christianity without the Cross, and cannot have the Cross without the Original Sin gambit of the Garden of Eden, and that bespeaks not of just the fundamentalists, but of all who call themselves Christians...
 
Shit, you're right about that part of the book, how could I have forgotten. This has got to be what she's talking about, no?

As far as the statement itself, it is not universally accurate, it cannot be applied to all Christians.

Universalists, for instance, acquired their name because they rejected damnation. As in universal salvation. Unitarians theirs because they rejected the Trinity.

There are Christians who reject pretty much the entire Old Testament. It's important to realize how much mainstreaming and cleaning up got done in the interest of political expediency- consider what Constantine did, he's responsible for most of it. The deleting part (say, gnostic scripture) has been going on forever, it's part and parcel of the history of organized Christianity. Which leads me to Peter (not the biblical one) saying:

For the record, the Garden of Eden story comed from the Old Testament, which both Christians and Jews purport to believe (maybe Moslems, too).
 
The Garden of Eden is a story/myth that is duplicated in one form or another all over the world. As it appears in the Old Testament (which is like saying after it went through the world's biggest editing and translation clusterfuck), it evolved from earlier myths. I'm not a theologian or a Christian, but I do dig in pretty deep sometimes. If you go down to the very earliest texts and really sweat out learning translation conventions, what you see is something that is at a much more what I'd call "core" level of myth. I mean, sometimes you have a very different situation with the snake, even... :) I'm not kidding! If you ever want to get a feel for that, go online somewhere and look at the gnostic scriptures. And that's not even where it started, that's just some of the earliest writing that has been recovered. It's the same thing with Jesus, and the Gospel of St. Thomas (that's the most high-profile example). You start to see a very different picture of Xstianity. Not suprising that many of the people who look into these things are Christians, and it very much modifies and enriches their understanding.





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