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Friday, July 24, 2009 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Is sexual orientation immune from moral evaluation, or can someone's sexual preference be criticized as immoral or inappropriate?! Nowadays, when virtually any form of sexuality demands tolerance if not celebration, the very idea that certain forms of sexuality might be wrong or inappropriate is viewed as secular heresy -- indeed as shockingly offensive.

How far has the so-called sexual revolution taken us? Is "whatever turns you on" an acceptable sexual ethic? Or can some forms of sexual expression be criticized as objectively immoral or inappropriate?

To be sure, any sex acts that violate the rights of others are clearly immoral. No one today would countenance rape or child molestation (well, practically no one!). But what about certain fringe sexualities, like S&M, bestiality, or fantasies of rape or molestation? Granted, these do not violate anyone's rights, but are they a "legitimate" form of sexual preference? And if they are not, then the question arises: What standards are we employing to evaluate a non-rights violating sexual preference as either good or bad, right or wrong?

Of course, someone will be quick to reply that this is the province of psychology, not philosophy, but do people really believe this? If a psychologist were to criticize homosexuality as a retarded form of sexual development, he would be roundly condemned by virtually every liberal in our society. He'd quickly be labeled a sexual bigot and a homophobe! Most people do consider sexual orientation to be the province of philosophy (i.e., of morality). So what standards should be employed in order to evaluate it? What standards should psychology itself employ?

Nathaniel Branden has criticized S&M as unhealthy (whether he still would is another question), because it involves the desire to give and receive pain rather than pleasure. It is true that the respective participants receive pleasure from the pain, but it is the genesis of that causal relationship that is the problem. Why does the infliction of pain give the sadist pleasure, and why does the corresponding experience of pain give the masochist pleasure? There is a psychological disorder at the root of that relationship. The sadist gets pleasure out of inflicting pain, because he enjoys the feeling of power over others that it gives him, which is a sign of low self-esteem. The masochist gets pleasure out of being mistreated, which is also a sign of low self-esteem. So this kind of sexual orientation is inappropriate, because it reflects a bad psychology, a bad self-appraisal.

If this kind of evaluation were carried forth in the analysis of other forms of sexual preference, it could conceivably be used to validate or invalidate them. But today, this research would be treading on dangerous, politically incorrect ground, so there is a prejudice against pursuing it in a free and dispassionate manner. The social pressure to arrive at the politically correct conclusion is simply too strong to allow for this kind of free scientific inquiry.

Just imagine the reception a psychologist would get who today expressed a view that homosexuality or lesbianism had inappropriate psychological underpinnings. He would be ridden out of town on a rail. The same reception would befall anyone who considered a bisexual or transgender orientation psychologically deficient. Howls of protest would arise and his very job and professional standing would be at risk.

The question then is, disregarding the prevailing orthodoxy, should a person's sexual orientation be open to moral evaluation? And, accordingly, is a sexual ethic one that is worth developing and promoting?

- Bill




(Edited by William Dwyer on 7/25, 10:02am)


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Friday, July 24, 2009 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
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The morality is simple in concept, though a bit tricky in execution -- if the parties involved in the sexual act are all consenting adults, it is moral.

One could argue that, say, the spouse of a person who is having an extramarital relationship is harmed by that act, but I don't believe that such an extramarital act is an immoral initiation of force. (You might say it is immoral due to religious considerations, but that is not the same thing as NIOF immorality.)

A marriage is essentially a contract, not an agreement to indentured servitude or slavery, and if either party finds the terms unacceptable, they can either modify the terms or dissolve the contract. An affair may have unpleasant consequences, and lead to very hard feelings (though not necessarily), but it is not immoral in the sense of being an initiation of force.

What would be immoral would be saying that a marital "contract" could not be modified if either party no longer consents to it, since that would be a form of slavery, and one cannot morally "sell" oneself into slavery, even partially.

A lot of women have the mindset that, hey, we got married, and so I can force him into fidelity and all that. Not so. Marriage is a contract that both partners have to choose to continue every single day, a contract that requires a constant, continuing desire for a mutually agreeable melding of interests based on ongoing consent.

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
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To the question of whether sexual orientation should be open to moral evaluation, I would say no. However, I would say that ethical behavior should govern one's sexual practices - and by this I mean according honest respect for one's partner.

The mechanics of sex is such that male-female sex is the natural/intended way (it is how we're designed). Nevertheless, homosexuality appears in abundance throughout nature also, so while it may be counter-intuitive, it must be accepted as another facet of nature. The why of homosexuality is - and should be - thus a moot point.

Unquestionably, other practices like sadism, masochism, etc. are the result of psychological needs, and are forms of darker, evolved play. Playfulness is certainly more than okay, in my opinion, although most play doesn't usually generate sadomasochistic risks. Those couples mutually agreeing to those risks, though, are as entitled to their choices as any other conventional bisexual or heterosexual couple.

On the morality of an extramarital affair, it can be seen as a breach of contract, but it is essentially a breach of trust. Yet in many marriages the trust may have already been breached in other ways - one reason why extramarital affairs occur.

Consenting adults is a fine term for legal adjudication, but doesn't necessarily cover the ethical issues of when a couples fall into bed together. It is very common that one partner is consenting to make passionate love to one who fills their senses, while the other partner is only consenting to get their rocks off. Disappointments and conflict abound. I would say that anything sexual is ethically and morally okay, so long as the two willing participants are on the same page. Where deceit is involved, there is an ethical breach.

jt

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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I agree with Bill, and disagree with Jim.

Jim stated:

The morality is simple in concept, though a bit tricky in execution -- if the parties involved in the sexual act are all consenting adults, it is moral.

Staying inebriated is immoral, even when its done with the full consent of a substance abuser.  Deliberately hurting oneself is immoral, even when it's done with willful consent. Evasion is always immoral.

To ignore, or to never examine the cause of what gives one pleasure is evasion, and is thus immoral.

Bill isn't talking about contractual relationships, Jim. That isn't the issue at all, but if it were, I'd say that having an affair is essentially an act of evasion, especially if it involves lying to your spouse or partner.  


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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
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I don't think you can make a top down statement that things such as rape fantasies or other types of "kinkiness" are immoral as if that judgment were true for all people based on universal human nature. You have to judge the individual and his circumstances.

For example, I personally find the idea fun, but in reality handcuffs just get in the way.

If you find that you need handcuffs in order to function, then you might have reason to examine yourself further.

But biblical "thou shalt not" commands in sexuality are not helpful except in the obvious wider case of physical harm or lack of consent, where the question is not the sexuality per se but the obvious self-abuse or criminality.

Maybe you could give us a more concrete example of what is concerning you?

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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Humiliation isn't sexy, even if it's by consent.  

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 7/25, 10:59am)


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Post 6

Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 8:19pmSanction this postReply
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My favorite flavor of ice cream is vanilla. Always has been. Given the choice, I'll take vanilla. However, the other day my ex-boyfriend and I were out shopping and stopped for some ice cream and he got some coffee flavor. I was afraid of it. I'm not much on taking chances with my flavors. I was going to stick with vanilla. It has never wronged me before. But this time, this one time, I went for something new. I ordered the coffee flavored ice cream too and I'm glad I did. Wow. It really knocked my socks off.

Sex can be very much like ice cream. Nothing wrong with vanilla, but a coffee might be nice too. And boy is rocky road out of this world! Since we're on rocky road, and no one else will, I'll come out of the closet on this one: I enjoy "aggressive" sex. I'm not really sure why. Perhaps it's because I'm such a dick in my everyday life and like the contrast of being controlled now and again in bed. Or, maybe it has something to do with being somewhat of a thrill seeker. Is jumping out of an airplane much different than having a rape fantasy?

There is nothing wrong with rough sex, as far as I'm concerned. If a psychologist ever comes up with a reason why it's unhealthy I'll probably remain unhealthy. I smoke anyway. What's one more vice?

As far as homosexuality, I'm very willing to concede that more is going on than might appear. Maybe we do choose it. Or, maybe we are born that way. Perhaps it's a collection of this and that which causes someone to have a sexual and emotional attraction to the same sex. Here again though, if it is ever discovered that this can be changed, that somehow, through some means, a homosexual can be made to be heterosexual, I'll pass. Other than being more comfortable I don't really feel any different now that I'm an "out" homo than I did when I was a closeted one.

Besides, who would want to get rid of the gays? We're so damn cute.

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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Cigarette holders, three ways, rough sex? Rand's sexuality seems much more like that of an oversexed gay man than your average heterosexual woman.





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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 9:14pmSanction this postReply
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The world would be excruciatingly dull without gay people.  And probably a lot less pretty.

 Is jumping out of an airplane much different than having a rape fantasy?

Jumping out of an airplane is a productive sporting accomplishment, like winning the Indy 500 is a productive sporting accomplishment, or running the Boston Marathon is a productive sporting accomplishment.  The idea of bungee jumping makes me want to vomit, but it's still a sporting accomplishment. 

A rape fantasy is not a productive sporting accomplishment, or any kind of accomplishment at all. That isn't to say that I think they're destructive in some way, because I don't think they necessarily are.  I do have a problem with defining sex as a sport, however.

If you liked shit flavored ice cream, Steve, you'd have a problem in my book. We aren't talking about making a moral distinction between things that are actually good, like vanilla or coffee flavored ice cream. They're both good. We're talking about enjoying frozen shit in a cone instead of vanilla.

I'm sure you've heard of it: "Two Girls and a Cup?"  There's no way to convince me that's morally neutral sexual territory.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 7/25, 9:27pm)


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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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That's a strange notion of productivity. And neither sport nor sex is commerce, but closer to art, a spiritual exercise engaged in for its own sake. I can't speak for Steve, but if you think the mere fantasy of being dominated in sex is wrong, then you have a problem with Dagny and Dominique as well.

Also, as regards "productivity" you should read I, Claudius. Graves relates the tale from Tacitus of the Empress Messalina competing with the whore he calls Scylla to see who can bed the most clients in one night. The Empress won.



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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 9:37pmSanction this postReply
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I've jumped out of a plane twice in my life. It is nothing like sex. It is about freedom and exhilaration, though...

What the heck is two girls and a cup? Or do I even wanna know?

jt

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Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 10:50pmSanction this postReply
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Come on, Teresa, fill us in. What the heck is "two girls and a cup"? Or is this too pornographic for RoR? Geez, what I have walked into?!

In answer to Ted's question, my interest in starting this thread was to see if there were any thoughts on the morality of sexual preference, and how that morality might be justified. There's a tendency to think that anything involving sex is moral or legitimate, so long as it's consensual. Are we really prepared to say, for example, that there is nothing wrong with bestiality, with sex that involves physical brutality to a willing participant or with fantasies of rape or molestation?

Religionists have a sexual ethic, which they claim to be derived from God. What is Objectivism's sexual ethic? What view of (consensual) sex can be defended or criticized, according to Rand's philosophy? I'm just curious.

To date, Objectivism doesn't seem to have developed any clear or comprehensive view on this issue, which I find interesting, especially since Nathaniel Branden in his early association with Rand had developed a very assertive and comprehensive theory of sexuality, which Rand evidently endorsed as part of the Objectivist philosophy. See his 20-lecture course on "The Basic Principles of Objectivist Psychology" given in 1967, specifically Lecture 14, "The Psychology of Sex." Branden no longer holds the same views today. And no other prominent Objectivist has weighed in on the issue since then.

- Bill

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Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 6:50amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Go to youtube and search for "two girls one cup reaction." You will find thousands of videos of people watching and reacting to the "two girls one cup" video. Watching their reactions will tell you that you don't want to see the original.

E.


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Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 7:23amSanction this postReply
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That's a strange notion of productivity. And neither sport nor sex is commerce, but closer to art, a spiritual exercise engaged in for its own sake.

Keeping score is appropriate in sport, because it allows one to keep track of how productive they are at those activities. Lots of jokes are make of this regarding sex, but in reality, I don't see this as proper, or selfish, or value driven.  

I completely agree that sex and sexuality is closer to art.

What Ethan said about "Two Girls, One Cup."  The reaction videos alone are enough to tell you this isn't morally neutral idea or activity.  In fact, making fun of it with those reaction videos is exactly what it deserves.  Rand would approve.  I only watched the reactions, which is completely sufficient to make a moral judgement about the original.

Obviously, sexual preference can, and should be morally defined.


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Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
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Cigarette holders, three ways, rough sex? Rand's sexuality seems much more like that of an oversexed gay man than your average heterosexual woman.
I'm not sure what Ted is referring to here. "Three ways"? Rand has never endorsed ménage à trois. And as far as "rough sex" is concerned, scenes like the one in The Fountainhead between Dominque and Roark, which has been referred to as "rape by engraved invitation," also appear frequently in Harlequin romance novels. More than one woman I've talked to has told me that being sexually overpowered by the right man, by someone they're interested in and attracted to, is a turn on. Obviously, real rape is out of the question.

Objectivism recognizes the dominant-submissive role in sex. For the man, sex is a self-assertive conquest; for the woman, an emotional surrender. The woman must be assured that it is safe, desirable and appropriate to surrender to the man. She therefore attaches great importance to his strength and confidence. Since being physically overpowered by him can serve as a demonstration of that strength and confidence, women often find it desirable -- but desirable within the context of a consensual relationship.

- Bill




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Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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Brave Steve, that post #6 was a delight.

My lover and I met through the personal ads of a gay newspaper, in the section reserved for people with HIV. He wrote in his ad that he was looking for “someone submissive in bed, but not in life.” I wrote back a one-word reply: “Exciting.” We have made our life together for 13-plus years now. Boy, did we get that right!

I can no longer remember entirely how it came about, but we came very soon to an idiom suited distinctly to us: a god and his angel. Wishing you great breath of life, wings of human nature.

Stephen


(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 7/26, 9:31am)


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Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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I would say that Rand recognizes the dominant-submissive role in sex. It's far from a fully worked out philosophical position attributable to Objectivism as defined by the Randian standing-on-one foot or the Peikovian primacy of existence/objectivity of concepts definitions.

By three ways I meant primarily the Dominique-Roark-Wynand, and the Dagny-Francisco-Rearden triangles. (there are others.) I think Rand would have loved to have been able to bring all three together in one bed, but focused on the woman. Those would have been entirely different stories, of course, and situations that could not be integrated into the respective novels, since conflict, not menage, is the essence of drama. And I am attempting mind reading here, kind of like accusing her of a pattern of defending kinky sex. But the mere supposition is not implausible, and if you google gay/Rand I am sure you will find a lot of gays, a la Sciabarra, who admire her style. This is by way of conversation, not argument.

As for the two and a half men thing that has Teresa so discombobulated, what are we to make of it other than that she finds it icky? Does it involve crushing frogs with high heels? Fetal snuff films? Maybe it truly is disgustingly immoral, but the mere hints don't suffice to show that, and I don't think it's anyone's duty to do google searches looking to be grossed out. (I am not about to.) We need some (preferably non-vomit-inducing) examples of supposedly immoral sexual behavior that doesn't simply fall into immorality by involving self-destruction and lack of consent.

I will repeat my first assertion in this thread. People's values and natures are emergent, not top-down affairs. It is unlikely that we can find anything more than banal truths about sexuality by trying to analyze it in a top-down "thou-shalt-not" biblical command mannersupposedly dervived from universal truths. I think we need some explicit concrete test cases here, otherwise we are discussing floating abstractions.



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Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Stephen, I met my late boyfriend Jay through an ad in the Village Voice. He responded because I specified that I listened to WSOU, the renowned heavy-metal radio station out of Seton Hall University.



We had wonderful times in the mosh pit. If only Linz were here he could call me immoral for that.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 7/26, 9:59am)


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Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I'm supposed to be ignoring you but I must jump in and condemn you for being a headbanging-caterwauler!

Now where did I put my Tool CDs?


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Sunday, July 26, 2009 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
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I will repeat my first assertion in this thread. People's values and natures are emergent, not top-down affairs. It is unlikely that we can find anything more than banal truths about sexuality by trying to analyze it in a top-down "thou-shalt-not" biblical command mannersupposedly dervived from universal truths. I think we need some explicit concrete test cases here, otherwise we are discussing floating abstractions.
No one here is equating morality or ethics with "top-down 'thou-shalt-not' biblical commands." This is an Objectivist forum. But that doesn't mean that there can be no universal morality or universal sexual ethic. I'm not sure what you mean by "explicit concrete test cases." As examples of aberrant sexuality, I mentioned bestiality, S&M, and rape and molestation fantasies. Are you suggesting that whatever occurs in the context of a consensual relationship is moral by definition, irrespective of its relationship to a person's mental or physical health? And if not, then how does one go about arriving at a rationally defensible sexual ethic? What standard or principles are relevant here?

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 7/26, 10:56am)


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