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Post 220

Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 2:54pmSanction this postReply
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Malcom

To accept the fact one is in emotional pain is not the same as being sympathetic to it, which is what pity is.....
Which is precisely what Branden is advising, are you dense?




Post 221

Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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Joel, thanks for your help!

Post 222

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 1:56amSanction this postReply
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Joel, thanks for your help!
Hey Ciro, you're welcome.

A reveure --'see you' in Catalan language--,

Joel Català


Post 223

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 2:37pmSanction this postReply
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Joel wrote,
The position of Ayn Rand & orthodox Objectivists is considering free will as genuinely "free." But that point of them is contradictory with their position with causation, in where they are 100% determinist.

For more information on this Objectivist contradiction, you may check this link.
Since I can't duplicate the link, given my Safari browser, please refer to Joel's post, #188. Let me say here that I am a compatibilist and therefore not an advocate of libertarian free will, so I think that Keikeben raises some important questions that Objectivists need to address. I do, however, think that he gives short shrift to the idea of an entity's nature as being necessary to causality. Without any connection to an entity's nature, causality quite literally goes out the window, because then anything is possible a la Hume, and we have no basis on which to identify a "law" of nature. An entity's action to be understood at all must be understood as governed by its nature - by the kind of entity it is - otherwise, there is no way to make sense out of the concept of causality. To say that an entity's action is governed by something other than its nature makes no sense, because then who or what governs the governing agent, if not its nature? And so on.

But if an action is determined by the nature of the acting entity, then only one action is possible to it under a given set of conditions. To say that more than one action is possible implies that the same thing acting under the same conditions can yet perform a different action, which is like saying that the same thing existing under the same conditions can yet possess a different attribute, which is a contradiction. If it is the same thing under the same conditions, then it must have the same attributes. This may be easier to see if one imagines something existing at a particular point in time, say yesterday at 12 Noon. If one were to turn back the clock to exactly that point in time, one would duplicate the thing and the conditions under which it existed exactly. Given the thing's character and the conditions at that time (12 Noon), it would then have to possess the same attributes, including the same action. Its action is no less a part of its identity than its size, shape or color. Just as its size, shape or color could not be different, so neither could its action. And since time is irrelevant to a thing's attributes if the conditions under which it exists are the same, it follows that given exactly the same conditions, exactly the same entity must possess exactly the same attributes.

Does that mean that man does not choose his actions and therefore is not responsible for them? No, but it does mean that the choice he makes is necessitated by his values at the time he chooses it. In other words, it means that his choices are the product of what Aristotle referred to as "final causation." A choice presupposes an end for the sake of which one makes the choice. There must be something motivating the choice - something that one is seeking to gain or keep and for the sake of which one chooses it.

The argument typically made against determinism assumes that the determining factor (or factors) is what Aristotle termed "efficient causation," which refers to a causal agent that "makes" us act a certain way, in lieu of our own choices. Given this view of determinism, as one of efficient causation, it follows that man is not responsible for his actions or for his beliefs. He cannot be praised or blamed for his actions, nor can he have confidence in the accuracy of his judgment, since he has no control over it. "Efficient" determinism is thus self-refuting, because if one has no control over one's beliefs - if they are determined by a causal agent other than one's own knowledge and understanding - then one cannot know whether any of one's beliefs is true or false, including the belief that one is (efficiently) determined.

In contrast to the advocate of libertarian free will, the compatibilist holds that what governs human action is final causation, which is perfectly compatible with causal necessity. By the same token, the concept of final causation is also compatible with self-responsibility and self-direction, because it implies that a person's choices are determined by his knowledge and values. He can be held responsible for his choices if they are determined by his knowledge and values, but not if they are determined by something other than his knowledge and values, because in that case, his choices would not reflect his true intentions - what he is truly seeking to accomplish. We hold a person responsible for actions done intentionally, but not for those done accidentally, unless the accident was itself the result of negligence, which was due to actions involving prior intent, e.g., the refusal to take adequate precautions or to acquire the relevant knowledge.

So causal necessity in human action is not incompatible with moral responsibility, nor is it incompatible with praise and blame or with rewards and punishment.

- Bill

Post 224

Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 9:50pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, well stated. I do have a question for you, though, regarding this section of your response ...
 
=======================
But if an action is determined by the nature of the acting entity, then only one action is possible to it under a given set of conditions. To say that more than one action is possible implies that the same thing acting under the same conditions can yet perform a different action, which is like saying that the same thing existing under the same conditions can yet possess a different attribute, which is a contradiction. If it is the same thing under the same conditions, then it must have the same attributes.
=======================
 
While this is definitely true for all of material existence -- what about the immaterial (ie. mental) existences of intellect, will, desire, pleasure and pain? There are covering law models (ie. retroactive deduction of formerly-inductive premises) for the physical universe, but are there covering law models for the mental universe (you seem to be saying so)?
 
Ed


Post 225

Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 12:57amSanction this postReply
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Ed, I don't know what you mean by "covering law models." Do you mean like the law of gravity? So, are you asking if there are similar laws governing cognitive activity, such that we can predict what a person will do from these laws?

No, because the causal factors affecting human action are too complicated. We can, however, make predictions within a high degree of probability, given our knowledge of someone's stated beliefs and values. For example, I can predict with reasonable certainty that you will not be campaigning for socialist or green-party candidates in the next election, because I know your politics. Similarly, I can predict that you won't be attending church regularly, because I know your views on religion, and that you won't be holding up the nearest Seven-Eleven, because I know you're morally opposed to robbery.

By the same token, I can predict that people will generally stop at traffic lights, open their stores for business, drive at a certain rate of speed and generally live in a manner that is similar to the way they have been living. If there were no causality operative in human behavior, we would have no reason to expect people to act in one way rather than another, but we do have these expectations and with good reason: people's actions are determined by their values and beliefs, which is why spreading the right philosophy and the right ideas is so important. The way people act is determined by how they think and by what ideas they've adopted.

I hope that answers your question. If not, feel free to clarify or expand on the point that you were making.

- Bill

Post 226

Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
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Bill, you answered my question (human behavior is -- operationally -- indeterminable).

I was worried that you hadn't integrated the fact that the quality (on what?) and quantity (how much?) of focus is repeatedly 'chosen' (in real time) by individual minds.

Ed
['free to focus']


Post 227

Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, you wrote:
Bill, you answered my question (human behavior is -- operationally -- indeterminable).

I was worried that you hadn't integrated the fact that the quality (on what?) and quantity (how much?) of focus is repeatedly 'chosen' (in real time) by individual minds.

Ed
['free to focus']
Yes, chosen, but the choice is made because you value focusing more than not focusing. It is the value that you place on it that determines your choice. You choose to focus - to raise your level of awareness - because you want to increase your knowledge and understanding. Conversely, if you choose not to focus, you do so because you consider the benefits of focusing not worth the effort. You are "free" to focus only in the sense that you are "capable" of doing it, if you consider it worth doing. But you are not "free" to focus in the sense that you can choose to focus, even if you don't consider it worth doing.

- Bill

Post 228

Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Your argument -- as stated -- leaves something to be desired: no focus on the 'real-time' dynamic that I had mentioned before. In constructing your argument then, your description of this 'Value Determinism' comes off as just too static, but in reality, our value focus is dynamic.

You see, from one minute to the next, I could go from valuing something to dis-valuing that same thing. In reality, this will appear as a 'change of heart' or 'change of mind.' WHO changed my mind? I changed my mind. Indeed, every adoption of every value -- was preceded by a moment wherein the object was not previously valued.

Ed
[free to change his mind]

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 5/11, 7:56pm)


Post 229

Friday, May 12, 2006 - 1:26amSanction this postReply
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Ed, yes, you are free to change your mind in response to new information or a new evaluation; there has to be a reason why you change it, doesn't there?

- Bill

Post 230

Friday, May 12, 2006 - 9:45amSanction this postReply
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I think that at this time, we don't have the answer(s) yet to the questions of consciousness and free will.  There is no scientific explanation, and because QM does not yet integrate gravity, does that prove that gravitational force must be magic?  No, it proves we do not know, just like the fact that we don't know (exactly) what consciousness is.  So, while the debate is interesting, until we know more it will remail just that - a debate.  Some things that I think need to happen are:

1)  A Unified Field Theory of Physics (provable with empircal evidence backing it up)

2)  A genuine AI that is conscious, or the proof that no AI can actually be created (though difficult to prove a negative, if more and more advances still prove nothing can be accomplished, it may become obvious it cannot be done).

3)  From the mystic's perspective, proof of some "spirit" universe (or, to take the universe as everything, some seperation of consciousness and material) that actually exists.  For example, there could be this alternate "spirit" universe that only interacts with the material portion of the universe in particular ways (such as via a neural network like a brain).  I cannot for certain say this is impossible, just that as of yet I have seen no such definitive proof.


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Post 231

Friday, May 12, 2006 - 1:09pmSanction this postReply
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I think that at this time, we don't have the answer(s) yet to the questions of consciousness and free will. There is no scientific explanation...
As in all such issues, you have to define your terms. What do you mean by "free will"? If you mean the ability to choose either of two alternatives under precisely the same conditions, then I think the law of causality rules that out, for the same reasons that it rules out indeterminism in subatomic physics. If, however, you mean by "free will" the ability to make conscious choices, then that ability can be verified introspectively, just as consciousness can. Consciousness is defined ostensively - by direct awareness - and can be understood in no other way.
...and because QM does not yet integrate gravity, does that prove that gravitational force must be magic? No, it proves we do not know, just like the fact that we don't know (exactly) what consciousness is. So, while the debate is interesting, until we know more it will remail just that - a debate. Some things that I think need to happen are:

1) A Unified Field Theory of Physics (provable with empirical evidence backing it up)

2) A genuine AI that is conscious, or the proof that no AI can actually be created (though difficult to prove a negative, if more and more advances still prove nothing can be accomplished, it may become obvious it cannot be done).

3) From the mystic's perspective, proof of some "spirit" universe (or, to take the universe as everything, some separation of consciousness and material) that actually exists. For example, there could be this alternate "spirit" universe that only interacts with the material portion of the universe in particular ways (such as via a neural network like a brain). I cannot for certain say this is impossible, just that as of yet I have seen no such definitive proof.
It is logically impossible for a pure spirit to exist, because, in order to exist, a spirit or consciousness requires a physical means of awareness, e.g., eyes, ears, nose, taste buds, etc. An animal is necessarily conscious in some particular form, which depends on the nature of the physical sense organs that give rise to its particular form of awareness. For example, the experience of sight depends on the proper functioning of the eye, its lens, optic nerve, etc.; the experience of sound, on the proper functioning of the ear, its tympanic membrane, auditory nerve, and so on. There is no sensory experience that is possible without the operation of these physical sense organs. The same is true of our thoughts and feelings, which depend on a brain, a central nervous system, neuroendocrine metabolism, etc. One cannot detach conscious experience from the physical body which makes it possible, any more than one can detach attributes from their entities. There can be no disembodied spirit or consciousness any more than there can be a disembodied shape or color. In fact, one cannot even conceive of a spirit that is not conscious in some particular form and therefore by some physical means. The very idea is a classic example of a floating abstraction - an abstraction anchored to nothing in concrete reality.

- Bill



Post 232

Friday, May 12, 2006 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

==============
Ed, yes, you are free to change your mind in response to new information or a new evaluation; there has to be a reason why you change it, doesn't there?
==============

Good reply, Bill. There does appear to have to be a reason for everything -- but some reasons may be operationally -- if not, existentially -- indeterminable. Part of my problem with your theory is that it seems to necessitate a persisting omniscience, with regard to introspective data. Your thoughts?
 
Ed


Post 233

Friday, May 12, 2006 - 1:21pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

============
I think that at this time, we don't have the answer(s) yet to the questions of consciousness and free will. 
============

And I think that you were determined to say that, Kurt -- in all possible senses of the term.

:-)

============
A Unified Field Theory of Physics (provable with empircal evidence backing it up)
============

This has already been done -- haven't you heard of Gravity Field (tachyon field) theory -- where 'gravity' is actually a pushing, rather than pulling, force?

:-)

============
A genuine AI that is conscious, or the proof that no AI can actually be created
============

Good luck (you'll NEED it).

:-)

============
From the mystic's perspective, proof of some "spirit" universe
============

Aaah, now your just being a conduit here (a vessel).

:-)

Kurt I do get your points, just tryin' ta' raz' ya' a lil'.

Ed


Post 234

Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, yes, you are free to change your mind in response to new information or a new evaluation; there has to be a reason why you change it, doesn't there?
Good reply, Bill. There does appear to have to be a reason for everything -- but some reasons may be operationally -- if not, existentially -- indeterminable. Part of my problem with your theory is that it seems to necessitate a persisting omniscience, with regard to introspective data. Your thoughts?
Why omniscience? If you change your mind, don't you do so for a particular reason, based on some new evidence, insight or understanding? How does recognizing this imply omniscience?

- Bill

Post 235

Friday, May 12, 2006 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Your theory involves acting to gain and keep things (ie. it involves values). But folks -- due to imperfect focus and introspective realities -- don't always act according to their actual (available to hindsight) hierarchy of values. Your theory doesn't account for this -- and that is a problem for me.

Ed


Post 236

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, you wrote
Bill,

Your theory involves acting to gain and keep things (ie. it involves values). But folks -- due to imperfect focus and introspective realities -- don't always act according to their actual (available to hindsight) hierarchy of values. Your theory doesn't account for this -- and that is a problem for me.
Sure. But how is that a problem? Sometimes, people lose focus and do things they later regret. But at the time they acted, they valued the choices they made, even if with better focus, they wouldn't have made them.

- Bill

Post 237

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, I was positing that the spirit interacts with the material through that very means - as a "gateway" from spirit to material.  Once the gateway is damaged or destroyed, the spirit can no longer interact.  It is kind of like what we would experience in a "virtual" world environment - we can interact with that environment as long as the means exists.  If it is damaged, such that our ear speaker for instance is disconnected, then we cannot hear.


Post 238

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, once again an excellent reply. You have sent me back to the drawing board ("No further questions, your Honor").

:-)

Ed


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Post 239

Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:48pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt, you wrote,
Bill, I was positing that the spirit interacts with the material through that very means - as a "gateway" from spirit to material. Once the gateway is damaged or destroyed, the spirit can no longer interact. It is kind of like what we would experience in a "virtual" world environment - we can interact with that environment as long as the means exists. If it is damaged, such that our ear speaker for instance is disconnected, then we cannot hear.
Okay. But here's the problem. Were that the case, a spirit - or consciousness - could exist without any means of being conscious. But a consciousness without any means of being conscious is a contradiction in terms; it is a consciousness that is not conscious, an A that is not A. It's not that the physical senses are required for a consciousness to interact with the material world; it's that they're required for a consciousness to exist. Without sense organs, a brain and nervous system, etc., there is no awareness, consciousness or spirit. It is for this reason that the idea of a consciousness' or a spirit's interacting with the material world is incoherent. In order for such an interaction to occur, the spirit must exist as an autonomous entity independently of the material world, but that is clearly impossible, because it would then have to exist without the material conditions that make it possible in the first place.

This is the fallacy in Nathaniel Branden's latest view of consciousness, as expressed in his book The Art of Living Consciously, in which he writes:


Materialism is the doctrine that all that exists is matter and its motions. It maintains that all phenomena of consciousness can ultimately be "reduced" to these motions. Because the concept of "matter" has become increasingly troublesome and elusive in modern physics -- one might say it has become "dematerialized" -- many now prefer to say that all that exists is physical reality. Most of the books being written these days to "explain" mind or consciousness are written from this perspective or are heavily influenced by it.

However, we need to realize that these two theories do not exhaust the possibilities. We are not obliged to subscribe either to some form of materialism or some form of Idealism. We are not compelled to seek to "reduce" consciousness to matter or matter to consciousness. We can justifiably maintain that neither matter nor consciousness is reducible to the other. There are powerful intellectual arguments against any such reductionism and no good reason to make the attempt. Metaphysically, mind and matter are different. But if they are different in every respect, the problem of explaining their interaction appears insuperable. How can mind influence matter and matter influence mind if they have absolutely nothing in common? And yet, that such reciprocal influence exists seems inescapable. This dilemma played a role in the attempt to reduce one of these two to the other.

Without going into details, I will suggest a possible way out. There is nothing inherently illogical -- nothing that contradicts the rest of our knowledge -- in positing some underlying reality of which both matter and consciousness are manifestations. The advantage of such a hypothesis is that it provides a means to resolve a problem that has troubled philosophers for centuries -- "the mind-body problem," the problem of accounting for the interaction of consciousness and physical reality. If they have a common source, then they do have a point of commonality that makes their ability to interact less puzzling. How we would test this hypothesis, or provide justification for it, is another question. However, to call this underlying reality "God" or "Spirit" would clarify nothing and would further obscure what we are trying to understand.
(pp. 201, 202)


Since consciousness is a property of a material organism, it makes no sense to talk of it in contradistinction to a material organism - in contradistinction to matter - except as an abstraction. Consciousness no more exists apart from the physical body than attributes exist apart from entities. Attributes, like action, color, shape, size, etc. are properties of entities; they are what an entity is; they are not alternative substances that "interact" or "combine" with it; they are the entity. There is no such thing as an entity divorced from its properties; an entity without properties does not and cannot exist. Consciousness is simply one of an animal's many properties which constitute its identity. It makes sense to speak of consciousness as material only in the sense that it is a property of a material entity, not that it is a material entity itself. It is no more a material than a spiritual entity.

Branden talks of a "reciprocal influence" of mind and matter, presumably on the premise that a mental phenomenon like fear can cause physical reactions, like an increased heart rate and perspiration, and that physical changes, like bodily injury, can affect one mentally and emotionally. But this does not constitute a reciprocal influence of mind and matter; mind is not interacting with matter, because the mind is simply the manifestation of a certain part of the material brain. For example, fear is a mental and emotional response, but it is simultaneously a physical response involving the brain and central nervous system. One's mind does not interact with one's brain nor one's emotions with one's central nervous system, any more than one's eyes interact with one's vision or one's ears with one's hearing. One's experience of vision and of sound just is the function of one's eyes and ears, in the same way that the flash of lightening that one sees on the horizon just is the thunder that one hears several seconds later. The alleged "reciprocal influence of mind and matter" is simply one part of the body influencing (or interacting) with another. Again, the mind no more interacts with the body than does an attribute with an entity. The so-called "mind-body problem" reduces to an attribute-entity problem for which the solution is simply to recognize that an entity comprises its attributes.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 5/14, 1:10am)


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