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Post 100

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

This is the same thing again. It's anthropomorphism. Most people get what is meant by Rand's writing.

Ethan


Post 101

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:30amSanction this postReply
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How would you know if you were being obedient?

Post 102

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Sharon,

It's simple. Laws of nature cannot be disobeyed. Evasion of reality, which is what Rand was talking about leads to poor results and/or death.

Ethan


Post 103

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

Is that how the negative proves the rule?

Post 104

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding some posts here, but I do get the impression that some people think that "nature to be commanded must be obeyed" is an original formulation by Rand (while it is of course a Francis Bacon quotation).

Post 105

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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The butterfly is correct. Rand did use the quote though, so this discussion is in that context.

Ethan


Post 106

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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Ethan,

I understand what you're saying and you're correct, I haven't read the whole thread.

"but it's not wrong per se."

I think the super literal take on things IS wrong. Einstein stated one time that he did not think in words, but in IDEAS. And it was sometimes difficult to translate his ideas into words. The IDEAS are important. We have to read and listen and try to comprehend the ideas behind peoples words. The literalist's are simply obfuscating. There is absolutely a ton of that going on. Which is why I'm reluctant to read these long threads.

Post 107

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 8:47amSanction this postReply
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Heh,

Mike, I agree. At some point its obfuscation or evasion, it can also be confusion. Defining terms is of absolute importance if you ever hope to have a reasonable argument. Most arguments are simply over terms rather than ideas.

Ethan


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Post 108

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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Einstein stated one time that he did not think in words, but in IDEAS. And it was sometimes difficult to translate his ideas into words. The IDEAS are important.

Yes, and a good litmus test for understanding is the following Einstein quote:

"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother."

Mike Erickson, I would urge you to read the thread before making too hasty conclusions. Ethan and myself resorted to dictionary definitions, which is an enlightening exercise.

And if by recognizing that benevolence is not an actual attribute of the universe Ethan has become an apostate of Objectivism, good for him.

(Edited by Joel Català on 4/19, 9:04am)


Post 109

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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Heh,

I'm hardly an apostate of Objectivism.

I understood clearly what Rand meant and do not disagree with what she meant.

I think she could have used a better word for the purposes of literal clarity.

There is a world of difference between those two points.

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 4/19, 9:07am)


Post 110

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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I think she could have used a better word for the purposes of literal clarity.
Yes, and here lays one problem for Objectivism: Ayn Rand's grand-mother, and some of her followers, could have understood that she was attributing moral traits to the universe.

Philosophy requires accurate language. Inaccurate language may lead to flawed thinking, and ultimately wrong decisions.

(Edited by Joel Català on 4/19, 9:17am)


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Post 111

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
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It's only a problem if you assume that Rand really believed the universe is a being. I don't. It's clear to me what she meant in context of her other writings if not her statement there.

You see, Objectivism is not about rote repetition of Rand's writings. It's about thinking and understanding.

What she said makes complete sense unless you take it as a completely literal dogmatic commandment.

This is not a flaw in Objectivism.

The flaw is in your intrpetation of what was written.

Ethan 


Post 112

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
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The flaw is in your interpretation of what was written.
Ethan, are you retracting from the affirmation that her use of the term "benevolence" for the universe is wrong?


Post 113

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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No,

I'm pointing out that your claim that Objectivism is flawed is wrong.

This simply doesn't constitute a flaw.

 



Post 114

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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This simply doesn't constitute a flaw.
To me, an inaccurate use of language is a flaw. It may eventually lead you to an incorrect understanding of reality.

As I pointed out, competent philosophy requires accurate language. Only an individual in denial mode can't recognize this.

The universe is not benevolent: the universe is good --indeed, very good.

And if that remembers you the Book of Genesis, just face it.

(Edited by Joel Català on 4/19, 9:47am)


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Post 115

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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Joel said:  To me, an inaccurate use of language is a flaw. It may eventually lead you to an incorrect understanding of reality.

As
I pointed out, competent philosophy requires accurate language. Only an individual in denial mode can't recognize this.
 
Now you are just degenerating into a complete ass.  I don't understand at least half of what you say, clearly that means you are a half-wit.



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Post 116

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
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I don't understand at least half of what you say, clearly that means you are a half-wit. 
Kurt, I know you are not a half-wit. But, as John Locke wrote, understanding cannot be compelled.

Please follow the thread record and calm down. It is a fact that competent philosophy requires accurate language; otherwise, you eventually get superficial thinking, circular arguments, and flawed conclusions. All this is present in Objectivism.

(Edited by Joel Català on 4/19, 10:28am)


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Post 117

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 12:27pmSanction this postReply
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Personally, I love Ayn Rand's use of the term, "benevolent universe premise", to describe our universe.

 

A 'benevolent universe', yes, I think it's a wonderful play on words born from her ingenuous artistic-literary flair; and yet it conveys, wonderfully, a deeper philosophical message.

 

It's as precise as it needs to be, but more importantly: it sings!

 

To me, it’s perfect.

 

Anyone with the slightest modicum of understanding into the context in which she was using the term, and yet continues to claim misunderstanding; well, trust me, they are  feigning a misunderstanding purposefully, in order to advance another agenda altogether.

 

George


Post 118

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 3:39pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan: “It's simple. Laws of nature cannot be disobeyed. Evasion of reality, which is what Rand was talking about leads to poor results and/or death.”

If the ‘laws of nature’ cannot be disobeyed, nor can they be evaded. Anthropomorphism seems to run deep in the human psyche, and can be a powerful tool of expression as long as one remains aware of its metaphorical nature.

The mischief occurs when the metaphor is conflated with philosophical principle, as in this case. Disobedience connotes rebellion against human authority, so it would be more accurate to say that it’s impossible to act contrary to the laws of nature. But in that case, either it’s impossible to evade reality, in which case nothing can come from it, or evading reality is not the same thing as acting contrary to the laws of nature.

The important point here is that while one cannot act contrary to the laws of nature, one can act contrary to the laws of man. Happens all the time.

Brendan


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Post 119

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan,

===============
Disobedience connotes rebellion against human authority, so it would be more accurate to say that it’s impossible to act contrary to the laws of nature.
===============

A further refinement on this is optimific ...

It’s impossible to act contrary to the laws of nature -- and thrive.

Ed


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