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Monday, March 27, 2006 - 8:08pmSanction this postReply
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In the Dissent thread, "Tossing Around A Tautology," originally conceived as a discussion on the the law of identity, several side issues have emerged, among them the common contention (common in the philosophical profession, at any rate) that ethical naturalism is fallacious. British philosopher G.E. Moore (1873-1958), author of Principia Ethica coined a term for this view; he called it "the naturalistic fallacy," and students of philosophy are sure to encounter it in their ethics courses. The view can probably be traced to David Hume's classic argument that one cannot get an 'ought' from an 'is.' Joel Catala has echoed Hume in a recent reply to Michael Kelly in the above named thread:
"I read and analyzed the Objectivist view of morality. My position is that morality cannot be based on sensory data, as you seem to assert. The philosophical name given to your fallacious view is 'naturalistic fallacy', and it is based on the intrinsic independence of ought and is. It was once described by David Hume."
It is a testament to the bankruptcy of modern philosophy that Moore's faux fallacy has acquired the kind of currency it has, for contrary to Catala, the misnamed "naturalistic fallacy" is itself a fallacy. All meaningful statements, which refer to reality, are factual statements. If I say, "Murder is bad," that is a factual statement. I am saying something about reality, namely, that murder is in fact bad. That assumes, of course, that "bad" is not a floating abstraction -- that it is anchored to concrete reality. "Bad" in this context means immoral, and "immoral" refers to actions that one ought to avoid. What do we mean when we say that one "ought" to avoid a particular action? We mean that the action frustrates a valuable end or goal. Similarly, if we say that one "ought" to take a particular action, we mean that it serves a valuable end or goal -- that it is a means to that which one values. So a "prescriptive" statement is simply another kind of "descriptive" statement.

Consider, for example, the following propositions: "I ought not to smoke, if I want to avoid cancer and heart disease." [Translation: Not smoking is a means to health and longevity, which is a value.] "I ought to look for a job, if I want to make money." [Translation: Looking for a job is a means of making money, which is a value." "People ought to respect each other's rights, if they want to live in a free and peaceful society." [Translation: Respecting each other's rights is a means to a free and peaceful society, which is a value.]

In brief, all normative statements are factual statements. Contrary to Hume, an "ought" statement is simply another kind of "is" statement.

The origin of Hume's is/ought dichotomy probably lies in the implicit assumption that "ought" statements are ultimately unconditional and categorical -- that they do not depend on any antecedent values, which they are intended to serve. Such a view was subsequently made explicit by Kant, who defended categorical imperatives as against purely hypothetical ones. In fact, of course, the idea of a categorical -- or unconditional -- imperative is itself a floating abstraction. To say that one ought to do something just because one ought to do it makes no sense.

If, for example, someone tells me that I ought to drink eight glasses of water a day, it would be reasonable for me to ask him "why." What I would be asking is: "for what purpose?" If he cannot answer me -- if he says that I ought to drink eight glasses of water a day simply because I ought to -- for no reason whatever -- then his statement is a meaningless prescription with no normative content. In order for me to take him seriously, he has to give me some reason for accepting his advice. He has to tell me what I have to gain by following it.

So, the idea that morality cannot be based on facts -- on actual human needs and values -- owes its origin to the bankruptcy of modern philosophy -- to the legacy of Hume and Kant, and their lesser progeny, G.E. Moore. But if ethical naturalism is viewed as a fallacy, what's left? You guessed it: supernaturalism, as exemplified in Joel Catala's view that morality requires the commandments of a supreme deity. Perhaps, we should christen this view "the supernaturalistic fallacy"!

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 3/27, 8:28pm)

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 3/27, 8:30pm)


Post 1

Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Great rebuttal. I posted a shorter anti-Moore response in that thread, only to find that you did me one better and created this more appropriate, more comprehensive thread-answer.
 
==============
Perhaps, we should christen this view "the supernaturalistic fallacy"!
==============

That's a good one, Bill. You can be a real hoot, you know!

Ed


Post 2

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Ed, you wrote:
Bill,

Great rebuttal. I posted a shorter anti-Moore response in that thread, only to find that you did me one better and created this more appropriate, more comprehensive thread-answer.
Thanks, Ed. I wonder if Joel is aware of this thread, since he has yet to comment on it.
==============
Perhaps, we should christen this view "the supernaturalistic fallacy"!
==============

That's a good one, Bill. You can be a real hoot, you know!
Thanks again, buddy, but that's due to my nocturnal participation on OWL -- Objectivism at We the Living. Speaking of which, I just got my 2006 Hooters calendar, which is worth checking out, if you already haven't seen it. Just click on the following link.

http://img480.imageshack.us/my.php?image=file0016ys.jpg

- Bill

Post 3

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Hey William, I saw your new thread. Will check it... after I answer your reply to my rebuttal of Branden's "anti-Creation" argument.

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 3/29, 11:50am)


Post 4

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Bill!!!

:-))

Aaagh! I fell for that one. Hooters, I thought. I've seen calendars like that before. Vavava-voom. Ooo-lala. I'm going to be able to see some pretty ladies -- scantily clad, mind you -- if I just click on this link that Bill provided here! I'll bet some of them will be all wet, too. I love it when they're all wet and giving me that sultry look. You know the one. Head cocked to the side somewhat, or perhaps down, but with the eyes looking up at you. Okay, okay, I can't take the suspense ... [click (click, click) and ...]

Who???

;-)

Ed


Post 5

Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:23pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Ed, they were making owl eyes at you, right? And what big eyes they were too!

- Bill :)

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Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Having once worked for Hooters, let me attest that we all find these delightfully funny....;-))

Post 7

Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 2:16pmSanction this postReply
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That's an excellent explanation. I have a couple of thoughts, though. Bill, you write, "To say that one ought to do something just because one ought to do it makes no sense." Wouldn't this apply to any case? Your point seems to be that if there is no logical foundation for prescriptions, then "meaningless prescription with no normative content." I agree with this conclusion, but if a logical foundation is your reason, then you need a qualification to prevent facts themselves from applying such that "A fact is a fact because it's a fact." Arguing for the other side for a moment, I might argue that I agree that prescriptions and descriptions jointly refer to facts, but that doesn't seem to solve the problem of getting from a prescription to a description given that there seems to be no basis on which to exclude descriptions from falling into the trap of prescriptions.

I'm finding the same problem in the philosophy of logic. Logic is said to determine truth-values and truth-values are said to be true as determined by good reasoning practices, which are themselves established by logical analysis. So you get something crazy like

[logic <=> (truth-values] <=> [reasoning) <=> logic]

which makes me feel like

my => brain => might => implode.

UK

Post 8

Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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[logic <=> (truth-values] <=> [reasoning) <=> logic]


That's when you take a break and go to Hooters. Or, if you were me, that's when I go read some science articles. :p

Post 9

Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, do you mean that you worked for Hooters, or that Hooters 'worked' for you? ;-) wink wink, nudge nudge.

Post 10

Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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... say no more, say no more!


Post 11

Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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That's when you take a break and go to Hooters. Or, if you were me, that's when I go read some science articles. :p

There is an XX and an XY such that for every XX that binds with an XY the result is XXX + Y. (Law of Surprise Conception*)

*a.k.a. the Principle of Catholic Guilt

UK

Post 12

Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 8:45pmSanction this postReply
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(Edited by John Dailey on 3/30, 8:47pm)


Post 13

Friday, March 31, 2006 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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UberKuh, you wrote,
That's an excellent explanation. I have a couple of thoughts, though. Bill, you write,
"To say that one ought to do something just because one ought to do it makes no sense."
Wouldn't this apply to any case? Your point seems to be that if there is no logical foundation for prescriptions, then "meaningless prescription with no normative content." I agree with this conclusion, but if a logical foundation is your reason, then you need a qualification to prevent facts themselves from applying such that "A fact is a fact because it's a fact."
I wouldn't say that "A is a fact because it's a fact." If I said that it's a fact, "because...," the "because" would refer to my reasons for saying that it's a fact. "Your honor it's a fact that the defendant stole my client's purse, because he was caught running down the street with it after grabbing it off her shoulder."
Arguing for the other side for a moment, I might argue that I agree that prescriptions and descriptions jointly refer to facts, but that doesn't seem to solve the problem of getting from a prescription to a description given that there seems to be no basis on which to exclude descriptions from falling into the trap of prescriptions.
All meaningful statements are descriptions. What distinguishes a prescription from other kinds of descriptive statements is that the former describes a necessary means of gaining a value, whereas the latter do not. "If (or since) your goal is X, you must (or should, or ought to) choose Y, in order to get X." But it is pointless and nonsensical to say that since your goal is X, you must choose X, in order to get X; X is already your goal. There's no real prescription in this case.
I'm finding the same problem in the philosophy of logic. Logic is said to determine truth-values and truth-values are said to be true as determined by good reasoning practices, which are themselves established by logical analysis. So you get something crazy like

[logic <=> (truth-values] <=> [reasoning) <=> logic]
We can lay this problem directly at the feet of rationalism. Truth is the correspondence of an idea to a fact of reality, and is established ultimately by direct observation, or by logical inference based on direct observation. Also, we have to be clear on what is meant by "logical analysis," by which I take it you mean logical inference. Logical inference is based on the laws of logic, which, in turn, are self-evident truths. How do you know that your reasoning practices are sound? By whether or not they conform to the laws of logic. How do you know that the laws of logic are true? By recognizing that they correspond to reality: Existence is identity. The law of identity is a law of reality.

Does this address what you had in mind, or have I missed the point entirely? :-)

- Bill


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Saturday, April 1, 2006 - 2:41amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

You touch on something I have been mentioning recently elsewhere. Axiomatic concepts do not exist to somehow "fix" reality into place. They exist merely as a starting point for our minds to think properly. They are a validation of our mind and rational faculty, essentially stating (waving an arm all around and including myself) "All this is reality" and (pointing to my head) "This is what I use for awareness of it and it is the right tool." Using this starting point, we can then develop independent conceptual thought.

The trouble I see with postulating the divine is on how to do so and validate the mind. The only person I know who does this in a rational manner does not suspend his reason, but adds the experience of a mental event that happens to him that is so strong he cannot deny the existence of it. He calls it mysticism and that is a horrible word to say around Objectivists. Kneejerks galore.

However, in his case, he is talking about a mental state that he can observe and analyze through reason, and he groups with others who report the same experience. He does not define it as a suspension of reason, but as an addition to it. Altered brain waves have even been measured and studied during this mental state. So when he thinks about a Creator, he imagines it as something (maybe not even a Creator) but he cannot yet say what that something is. All he has to go on is that mental experience, which is pretty vague in terms of logical clarity, but extremely intense.

In the case of Joel, he is postulating a Divine Creator who communicates through divinely inspired holy writings. The only way to accept the truth of this is to suspend our sense-based cognition and accept the existence of a Divine Creator (and the writers of the scriptures) on faith. With that door open, he can claim that moral commandments are metaphysical in nature and that reason is a gift from the faith-accepted Divine.

I believe that Joel is sincere in his beliefs and may even have mental experiences similar to what my friend has. He goes much further, though, as he postulates many more specific things about the Divine.

He will not convert any Objectivists, just as Objectivism will  not convert him. He sounds like a very good man, but he has hitched his wagon to a star and that's just the way he is going to think. On the fundamental issue of the existence of a Divine Creator, he is literally beyond the influence of logic, so using logical arguments with him - like starting with axiomatic concepts instead of God as a foundation of cognitive awareness - is a waste of time. However, he can be reached through logic in other areas. Still, conflicts will arise when logic clashes with holy writings.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/01, 2:47am)


Post 15

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
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Michael, you said, about me:

"[...] he is postulating a Divine Creator who communicates through divinely inspired holy writings."

Not exactly: I am just considering this possibility, and studying it. At the moment, I am exploring Judaism, and at the moment I could find rational answers to the apparent contradictions I saw. (Trust me, or not.)


"The only way to accept the truth of this is to suspend our sense-based cognition and accept the existence of a Divine Creator (and the writers of the scriptures) on faith."

I don't proceed that way. That would be the literalist/fundamentalist interpretation. Of course, blind faith-based interpretations are no interpretation at all, and are wrong.


"With that door open, he can claim that moral commandments are metaphysical in nature and that reason is a gift from the faith-accepted Divine."

Indeed, I think morality is metaphysical. Precisely, my discussion with Ed here will (hopefully) encircle the core of this issue.


"He will not convert any Objectivists, just as Objectivism will  not convert him."

Never mind: I am here at RoR to trigger my thinking processes with you.


"He sounds like a very good man, [...]"

Thank you, Michael. You act as a good man, and that's the best way to be a good man.  ;-) 

Cheers,

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 4/05, 6:55am)


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Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 7:09amSanction this postReply
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Joel,

Thank you. I return the compliment.

I want to be clear about the faith comment. I wasn't referring to "blind faith" type fundamentalism. I might have expressed that poorly. I was talking about a method of cognition. You cannot verify the existence of a Creator through sense-based reason like you can the chair you sit on. And the writers of the scriptures claim that they are divinely inspired. You either take them at their word on that or not. If you do, it is on faith, not on any kind of sense-based proof. That doesn't mean you blindly follow what they write (fundamentalism) and never use reason. I was talking about the "existence" premise only.

Michael


Post 17

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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  "I was talking about a method of cognition."

Deduction combined to observation is the real thing.


"And the writers of the scriptures claim that they are divinely inspired. You either take them at their word on that or not. If you do, it is on faith, not on any kind of sense-based proof."

You can take them at their word --whatever you mean with this-- as a working hypothesis. Then, following the proper method of scrutiny, you eventually arrive at the most probable option --whatever it is--, and take it as the right one... until eventual new inputs make you reevaluate the issue.

(Edited by Joel Català on 4/05, 9:03am)


Post 18

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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William, great article, I have a friend that is going to discuss this issue with me and a couple friends, so I'll be giving the link to this thread for their viewing pleasure. :)

-- Bridget

Post 19

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 9:06amSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer said:
 
"If I say, "Murder is bad," that is a factual statement."
Not correct: you are making a moral statement about a fact.
 
Fact: a given murder. Moral judgement: that fact is bad.

Instead, "This is a murder" is a factual statement. And then, you may judge it using your morality.
  
Indeed, you yourself fell into the "naturalistic fallacy"; see, e.g., from the link:

"The Naturalistic Fallacy mimics good reasoning by claiming to be "factually based," i.e. by appealing to well-established facts, but it is doing so in a context in which a choice of ideals is  actually the issue. It does not so much recognize the interplay between fact and value as try to reduce questions of value to questions of fact."

(Edited by Joel Català on 4/05, 10:10am)


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