Is Rand's take on gender roles in romance part of Objectivism?

Luke,

Have you read any fiction lately?

Michael

Post 181

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 8:26am

What do you mean by "lately," Michael Newberry? According to my records, I read Angels and Demons and The Da Vinci Code, both by Dan Brown, in November 2004 via Audible.

Why do you ask? I usually consume nonfiction works.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/08, 8:59am)

Post 182

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 8:43am

Luke,

I thought integrity was a basic precept of Objectivism too.

Sarah

Post 183

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 8:58am

Sarah, you need to articulate in what way I have violated integrity, i.e. loyalty to rational principles.

Post 184

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 9:46am

Luke,

"Sarah, you need to articulate in what way I have violated integrity, i.e. loyalty to rational principles."

The way you've presented "communications skills" looks kind of manipulative. That is, you're getting the other person to communicate lots of information about themselves while giving them nothing in return, while giving the false impression of being a good "communicator". My wife has impressed on me VERY strongly that she very much wants to know MY feelings about things. She says she divorced her first husband because she never knew how he really felt about anything. Your description of a good "communicator" looks like you're setting up that situation in spades. It also seems like, from your perspective, that's ok, because you can get what you want out of the woman [sex] and then decide whether they meet your long term values in the woman you want to be with. In other words, maximize getting your short term goal, while putting off pursuing your long term goal, if any.

Post 185

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 9:59am

Ah, well, obviously I did not "communicate" my ideas fully. I meant that the suggested strategy would start rapport from which to build a relationship -- especially for shy or quiet people. Naturally I would expect more of a balanced stream of talking as they got to know each other. In addition, one key hunger people have is to feel fully understood, and this can only come from intense listening. So even if a shy person cannot talk much about himself, he can still learn to listen intensely and reflect back the values the speaker conveys so that the speaker feels fully understood. Note that I did not say accepted, but just understood.

We all know annoying blowhards who talk endlessly about themselves with no regard for others. I do not see mastery of intense listening and reflection as a bad trait at all.

Post 186

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 10:08am

Sorry Luke, not you. I was referring to Dennis. I would very much like to see Dr. Neder's credentials: At which institution he got his "Doctor of Metaphysics" (DM) degree, what a DM is and why The Patient as a Consumer from Yale warns patients to be wary of them, what his doctoral thesis was on, what publications he has in peer review journals, where I can find the numbers from his "many years of research." If he is going to present the majority of women as ignorant and superficial based on this research, I'm going to look critically at it and him.

Sarah

Post 187

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 10:30am

Sarah, having read his book, I will suggest that his "research" is anecdotal rather than formal, i.e. based on his "many years of" dating as well as his conversations with clients and his e-mail discussion list. I do not look at this as inherently bad, but I agree that more rigorous studies would paint a more accurate picture. But his book overall has merit for men who want some kind of blueprint to follow.

If we are going to criticize Neder for baseless assertions, then the same needs to go for John Gray and others involved in the mass media cash cow called "the business of love." I will say that I like Neder much more than Gray given that the former implicitly accepts egoism and the need for an overall "life plan" context into which to fit romance. Too many people, male and female, try to build their lives around their lovers rather than standing on their own two feet as independent human beings with their own unique vision and mission.

The only Objectivist book I have seen published on romance is The Psychology of Romantic Love by Nathaniel Branden. I have read that Dr. Kenner and Dr. Locke are co-authoring an Objectivist book on romance. But certainly Neder offers value in this marketplace as well.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/08, 10:31am)

Post 188

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 10:47am

Luke,

Regarding Gray, you're right. I only mentioned Dennis because his work has been the most prominent on this site.

Based on your review of his book, certainly there is some value in helping men escape the influence of feminazis. Since I've only read his website, I can't comment more on the book itself. However, if his book contains the sort of belittlement of women that his website does, any value would be negated from my point of view. What good is a self-assured man if he has no respect for the woman he's with? (Assuming heterosexual relationships, yada yada...)

Sarah

Post 189

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 10:56am

I will let Dennis defend himself here. Suffice it to say that his material can help a man to sort the wheat from the chaff when searching for his soul mate -- and practice the virtue of self-assertiveness in the process. Perhaps you should read the book to judge for yourself.

EDIT: I should add that Neder encourages men to let the women in their lives decorate their bachelor pads and help them to select the clothes they wear. Women usually have better taste than men in those regards, such cooperation boosts the self-esteem and feelings of bonding of the women, and if the relationships end, the men have learned some lessons in decor and fashion to serve them in future relationships.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/08, 11:28am)

Post 190

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 11:03am

I'll see if it's at my local book store next time I'm there. I'm not motivated to pay $20 for it without looking at it first.

Sarah

Post 191

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 11:32am

I flipped through the book via Amazon (thank you technology), and I was so close to changing my opinion thinking that maybe Dennis really was just talking about childish women, then he had to go and say "Women are pre-programmed to be jealous and untrusting." Back to square one.

Sarah

Post 192

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 11:47am

Depending on what theory you buy, Sarah, they might have genetically pre-programmed responses of jealousy and distrust that only reason can redirect.

Men might have their own responses in the same vein unique to their own gender.

Would you criticize Neder for buying into widely accepted, if perhaps faulty, theories of genetic influence on human responses?

Post 193

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 12:22pm

If it were on a website or in some other informal setting, no I wouldn't fault him. However, I have higher standards for books. I expect a reasonable amount of research and understanding to go into such a statement. If it was based on a theory, which theory should have been stated and resources for further information should have been provided.

Of course, what you're saying goes back to much of what's been discussed in this thread. I would criticize a few of the assumptions in the statement: dimorphic gender, ignoring environmental influences on behavior (genes or reason false dichotomy), a causal relationship between gender and behavior rather than a correlational one. That's just off the top of my head. I may think of more later.

Sarah

Post 194

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 12:35pm

I didn�t think I was subtle with Luke or Ed, but apparently I was or, at least, to them. An anonymous person who understood my train of thought, forwarded this synopsis to me...and it names the possible connotations that scream at me from Ed's and Luke�s recent posts here.

Michael

Diary of the Superfulous Man - by Ivan Turgenev

Below is a brief synopsis of the book by unkown author:

Set in a corner of nineteenth-century Russian society, Diary of a Superfluous Man is the poignant story of a man's struggle to find meaning in his experiences.

A clerk named Chulkaturin, nearing the end of his life, writes in his diary, "I have nothing against happiness; in fact I have tried to approach it from every angle:' Yet things never worked out right for Chulkaturin. Afraid of expressing his thoughts, insecure, self-preoccupied, he not only was unable to win the woman he loved but also stood in the way of her happiness as well.

When Turgenev published Diary of a Superfluous Man in 1850, he depicted a life in which the tragic and the foolish intertwine. Failure as a lover, along with painful self-consciousness, is a central fact for the ailing Chulkaturin, and we are given here one of the first literary portraits of the alienated man.

(Edited by Newberry on 1/08, 3:32pm)

Post 195

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 12:42pm

Sarah wrote:

I have higher standards for books.

Evidently the average reader does not. Perhaps you can locate a good book for us that meets all of your rigorous standards and also provides excellent, step-by-step instructions for creating a life blueprint and locating a partner who fits "the plan." In the meantime, I will take the best -- meaning most readily useful --of what the market currently offers.

Post 196

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 12:48pm

After reading through this thread, I have the strangest desire to reminisce about a girl I met in high school.

Her name was Cathy B., and she was a cheerleader. She was astonishing, you know, in that way that a cheerleader always is - to a teenage boy. Cathy was sweet, bubbly, and slender; she had the brown eyes of a doe and silky blond hair. In fact, if I close my eyes tight enough and focus, I can still smell her. Against the odds, and to the pissed off envy of many a male classmate, for a few months, Cathy was mine.

On my personal list of the most fortuitous events that have ever occurred in my life, wooing and winning Cathy makes my top 5. Unfortunately it has had a bad side effect. You see, having had the good fortune of pulling off a �Cathy� at 17, it has forever predisposed me with a terrible bias in favor of women. To me, there is nothing on this earth better than the company, friendship, depth and soulfulness of a woman; they intoxicate better than Jack Daniels, and I have never regretted any hangovers I may have paid as a price in knowing any of them.

So here I am years later, completely unable to participate meaningfully to a simple topic posted on an internet philosophy forum; hopelessly and irrationally of the view that in general, in terms of beauty, decency, honesty, compassion, and joyfulness - men don�t come even slightly close to women. No fucking way.

Thank you, Cathy, wherever you are.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 1/08, 12:57pm)

Post 197

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 12:53pm

Michael Newberry, I can see why an engineer like myself and an artist like yourself would have trouble communicating. I have a woman in my life that I love and I do what I can to contribute to her happiness within the bounds of reason. I am basically happy whether alone or with others -- or if I do find myself in an unhappy social situation, I have enough assertiveness to change that situation quickly. I am working steadily toward the successful achievement of my chosen values. Unlike the fictional character you describe, I consider myself neither unhappy nor superfluous nor do I consider my life a failure.

Whether you judge my life otherwise is, well, superfluous.

I have no idea what I said in my posts that led you to make your remarks.

Post 198

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 12:58pm

Luke,

While not exactly what you asked for, I found a book that has potential for laying the groundwork for such a book: Social Development Of Self-assertion by Hitoshi Yoshimura -- places to buy it

Book Description:
This book examined human interactions in relation to adjustments to groups. Especially, these studies focused on self-assertion as a factor produced the difference in human interactions. As a consequence, following results were obtained. People who asserted themselves clearly were satisfied with their human interactions. In addition, people, who were satisfied with their human interactions, were also satisfied with their groups. Moreover, they tried to achieve their tasks diligently. Therefore, I have suggested the importance of self-assertion with respect to the adjustment to groups.

I'll try to pick it up and let you know how it is and I'll let you know if I find the other half of the book you want. :)

Sarah

Post 199

Sunday, January 8, 2006 - 1:06pm