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Post 80

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
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My two cents to sort of 'sort' the arguments:
First of all - yes Rand did think these rigid gender roles as part of Objectivism. She expressed them far too often in too great detail to assume she was just using them as 'personal illustrations of her characters'.
But that does not keep you from doing your own evaluation.
If you want to sort sexes and genders and assign relationships (no matter what sphere: physical, psychological, social, etc.), figure out a few basic facts and you'll soon see how pointless any further discussion will become - of course in our sex/gender biased world nothing is pointless when it comes to this classification :)
(arguments presented only in favor of the 'deviation' from the 'not-so-fixed' rule - rule-supporting arguments are galore and don't need repeating)
 
Even the most basic physical distinctions are not as clear-cut as we wish. Selective breeding over generations has created a broad spectrum of acceptable male and female, but few people (even doctors and scientist) bothered to look 'under the hood'.
 
- physical: genetic and biological
genetic males (xy) become biological females (with functional female reproductive organs) - hormonal changes to foetus (e.g. estrogen inundation when continuing on the pill) during first weeks of developement decides male or female development of xy foetus (week 8 or 13?) - of course the xx foetuses are stuck with female ;)
=> physical proof only in linear/matched combination possible
 
-- genetic:
XY, XX, XXY, XXX, plus all the xx/y xy-x derivations - many of them without identifiable influence on biological sex (see above)
=> no genetic proof possible
 
-- biological: hormonal and corporeal (to avoid 'physical' again)
hormonal: estrogenes (plus estriols and assorted gestagenes) and testosterone (plus other androgenes) with all possible combinations in varying degrees present in both sexes - individual circumstances decide hormonal balance or in some cases 'imbalance'
--- corporeal: sexual organs identical except turned inside out with males ('they dropped a few things') - vagina, clitoris, uterus, follicles, glands all have more or less the same corporeal setup and even function - if you include intersexuals (with or without functional reproductive organs of both sexes) and neuters (no functional genitalia whatsoever) you get the picture
--- secondary corporeal: breasts, hair, muscles, voice, bone-structure, etc. there's even less conclusive classification into polar sexes - some of these traits even sociologically in-bred over generations and / or varying with every individual even within his/her lifespan
=> no biological proof possible
 
- individual: gender and purpose
gender identification of self and other and purpose of that identification decide outcome of sexual classification
=> individual proof only in linear/matched combination possible (e.g. you default to the described sexual categorisation)
 
-- gender: personal sexual identiy role - influences our perception of ourselves in the sexual spectrum and our relation to the perception of other's sexual spectrum (took me two minutes to get that our right) - not related directly or indirectly to genetic or biological sexual spectrum - gender-roles are going back as far as native societies where 'gender-mismatches' did not only occur, but were tolerated and in some societies even highly integrated (men living as women and vice-versa or non-gendered at all though those were rare)
=> no gender proof possible
 
-- purpose: strongly depends on personal point of view - e.g. if indeed women are more pain-sensitive (that study did not give a valid classification of male/female to start with) it can be a biological purpose to better alert to damage to the body (both mother and child) ... or could be very personal to make a better female masochist (higher sensitivity to the infliction of pain as an erotic turn-on - not the social/emotional war going on everywhere) - of course males might fare better here if your purpose is to inflict higher damage without overstepping the slaves pain-threshhold - after all: pain is 'only' a warning to iminent or inflicted damage to your body - and reaction to pain and pain-threshhold can be 'learned' ...
=> intention defines purpose - no sexual/gender classification possible
 
- evolution: one possible explanation why this whole mess got started in the first place
to vary mutations through genetic intermixing of DNA when externally triggered mutations (radiation, volcanic, etc.) were declining due to thickening atmosphere and stabilizing biosphere (among other factors) - females still able to reproduce single-celled - double DNA helix already present in some unfertilized female eggs - only need trigger to start splitting (see parthogenesis - virgin births)
=> an experiment by nature that left non-sexed reproduction fully intact - just added a few bits
 
- social: endless field - all interpretations possible - don't even get me started :)
=> always remember that you are relating any sex/gender classification to an arbitrary social component that may be quite recent in personal developement or can be 'in-bred' over generations - make sure you clearly delineate which classification of sex and / or gender you are using before linking it to any social phenomena ...
 
VSD
 
PS: sorry for not following Ed's great example of providing further references for the examples cited above - if you absolutely need more material let me know and I'll try digging through my archives


Post 81

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 10:51amSanction this postReply
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Luke,

I thought women also had more connections between brain hemispheres than men.  Can anyone confirm that?
Got it ...

A novel index to estimate the corpus callosum morphometry in adults: callosal/supratentorial-supracallosal area ratio. Diagn Interv Radiol. 2005 Dec;11(4):179-81.

There was a statistically significant difference between the area for corpus callosum [the "brain bridge"] and supratentorial-supracallosal regions in males and females, although the calculated ratio (index) had no sex-difference. When compared to the literature, the variation coefficient was relatively lower (12.0%), with good interobserver agreement (Pearson correlation analysis, r=0.83).
Also of interest ...

Influence of X Chromosome and Hormones on Human Brain Development: A Magnetic Resonance Imaging and Proton Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy Study of Turner Syndrome. Biol Psychiatry. 2005 Aug 31; [Epub ahead of print]

BACKGROUND: Women with Turner syndrome (TS; 45,X) lack a normal second X chromosome, and many are prescribed exogenous sex and growth hormones (GH). Hence, they allow us an opportunity to investigate genetic and endocrine influences on brain development.
CONCLUSIONS: X chromosome monosomy, imprinting and neuroendocrine milieu modulate human brain development-perhaps in a regionally specific manner.
... and ...

Parasagittal Asymmetries of the Corpus Callosum. Cereb Cortex. 2005 May 18; [Epub ahead of print]

Results showed significant rightward asymmetries of callosal thickness predominantly in the anterior body and anterior third of the callosum, suggesting a more diffuse functional organization of callosal projections in the right hemisphere. Asymmetries were increased in men, supporting the assumption of a sexually dimorphic organization of male and female brains that involves hemispheric relations and is reflected in the organization and distribution of callosal fibers.
... and ...

Sexual dimorphism and handedness in the human corpus callosum based on magnetic resonance imaging. Surg Radiol Anat. 2005 Aug;27(3):254-9. Epub 2005 Jan 29.
 
The most striking morphological changes concerned left-handers, who had larger areas of the anterior body, posterior body and isthmus than right-handers. In addition, right-handed males had larger rostrums and isthmuses than right-handed females. These significantly increased areas were related to handedness in right-handed males. However, left-handed males had larger anterior and posterior bodies than right-handed males. In contrast, there was no significant difference between left-handers and right-handers in females. The areas of the rostrum and posterior body of the corpus callosum increased significantly with sex in males. Moreover, there were no significant age-related changes in the total corpus callosum and sub-areas of the corpus callosum. In conclusion, these anatomical changes in corpus callosum morphology require taking the sexual definition and dominant handedness into consideration.
Can anyone attest to the "lefties are more creative/less analytical -- righties think via linear logic" phenomenon?

Ed



Post 82

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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And another ...

Sex differences in the brain: implications for explaining autism. Science. 2005 Nov 4;310(5749):819-23.

Empathizing is the capacity to predict and to respond to the behavior of agents (usually people) by inferring their mental states and responding to these with an appropriate emotion. Systemizing is the capacity to predict and to respond to the behavior of nonagentive deterministic systems by analyzing input-operation-output relations and inferring the rules that govern such systems. At a population level, females are stronger empathizers and males are stronger systemizers. The "extreme male brain" theory posits that autism represents an extreme of the male pattern (impaired empathizing and enhanced systemizing). Here we suggest that specific aspects of autistic neuroanatomy may also be extremes of typical male neuroanatomy.
What do you guys think of this? My problem with it is 2-fold ...

1) it sounds way too simplified (even for a rationalist-sympathizer like me)

2) I've seen a level of apparent cruelty in women -- a cruelty for its own sake -- that I have yet to see replicated in men. I realize I'm downplaying those awful (man-orchestrated) public amputations in the Middle East, but I'm contextually doing that because the level of fear needed to secure dictatorships there seems to partially, ie. instrumentally, justify that kind of heinous crap. What I'm saying is that I've seen women engage in evil on what seems like pure whim, I've seen them seem to enjoy it more, and I've seen more (apparently) completely conscience-free women than men. Though it's true that, by far, most mass-murderers are men -- I'd argue that more evil is done by the folks who are crafty enough to avoid explicit crime.

This is a bit of a stretch, but when I went to buy books on evil folks (the main devils of history) -- one publisher had 2 books: a book on the top-10 evil dictators (men & women), and a book on the top-10 evil women; there wasn't a book on the top-10 men. Go figure. What stood out for me was the real-life vampire-ess who slowly killed girls by taking and using their blood as a cosmetic, the gal who kept killing her kids (more than 10 kids!), and the gals who found victims for their boyfriends to violate/kill. It seems more rare for guys to kill their own kids (though they probably beat them more). It also seems more rare that a guy would be a persistent, willing accomplice for someone else's evil.

One caveat regarding the gals who produced victims, they were deceiving victims into horrid pain and death -- but the guys we're actually performing (most of) the heinous actions. To that I would respond with the case of Myra Hindley & Ian Brady: Brady, the existentialist/moral nihilist, says he deserves life in prison for what he did, Myra thinks she ought to go free. It is this ability to believe that (your) evil is good -- or at least benign -- that I see actualized more in women than men.

If you're literally fuming right now (over this apparently sexist post), then please post comment to me here so that I can let you know exactly where I stand (and clarify for onlookers). The take-away message is that it seems (to me) that women can more easily (and totally) de-systemize -- as alluded to in the quote above, and that this allows for a more "total" moral subjectivism in women.

I'm just thinking aloud here, I may be way off with my thoughts on this matter, I'm hoping to refine them based on insight from others, and I'll say no more than that.

Ed
[not a woman-hater]

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 1/02, 12:17pm)


Post 83

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Let me restate the take-away message (before the bricks are thrown) ...

It seems (to me) that, statistically, women can totally empathize with their selves ( a kind of total moral subjectivism) -- moreso than men. This postulated "total-empathy-for-self" would preclude having any care in the world for any other beings (except as meat-puppets for personal entertainment).

Ed
[again (for effect): I am not a woman-hater]


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Post 84

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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deleted

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 1/02, 3:02pm)


Post 85

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 7:04pmSanction this postReply
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Vera had contacted me with good counter-points to the position I have tried to defend. My short response to her may help folks understand where, exactly, I stand ...

Vera, thanks for the detailed response. I agree that the pigeon-hole effect is fallacious. There are many women with more of the "typically-male" pscyhe than men (biometrics can't explain that).

You also make a great point about the potential terror of systemization. Religion and Political Collectivism are excellent examples of the terror that systemization is capable of bringing about.

I disagree that retributive punishment is cruelty (I'd argue it's the most respectable way to treat folks).

Cruelty really isn't the target though (I shouldn't have interjected it here) -- evil is cruel, but often indirectly. The point of evil is absolute avoidance of all pain & discomfort. It is performed by casting these onto others and then rationalizing that. That others suffer is not always the point. That you don't ever suffer is. In short, I'm interested in evil, not cruelty per se.

Ed

Ed


Post 86

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 7:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I'm having a hard time trying to understand you. For example: The point of evil is absolute avoidance of all pain & discomfort." "Evil" is not an intelligent being, nor does it live. How can it have a point? Maybe you're trying to say "All people who are evil want to (minimize/make it impossible) for people to experience the feelings pain and and discomfort." Which one is it? Minimize? Make it impossible? Am I anywhere near what your are trying to say?
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 1/02, 7:25pm)


Post 87

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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I'm having a really hard time trying to understand you.

I'm glad it's not just me!

Sarah

Post 88

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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Again, I'd like to point out how vast the behavioral characteristics vary between each individual, whether you are comparing any individual to another, or comparing a man to a woman. If I am about to meet a new person, and I'm told the person is male or female, I haven't gained the slightest bit of information about how much I'll like them, how smart they are, how just they are, and on and on. Some roles are generally more suitable for one sex, because of sex appeal or strength.

As for posting on this forum, I don't care at all whether you are male or female. I would prefer that you made yourself presentable/appealing in your portrait. Sarah!

Post 89

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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Why? Can't your imagination 'see' her as the goddess type of person, in agreement with her ascerbic personality and intellectual wit?

Post 90

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Didn't Ayn Rand more or less praise the differences of the sexes? Just read her novels. Yes, her heroes and heroines exemplified reason, but she also kept their gender differences intact. Who wants to live in a hermaphroditic world where the sexes were completey objective, but indistinguishable? It's not just about 'objectivity', but also about sexual individuality and celebrating the masculine and feminine, masculine being the dominant male trait, femininity being the dominate female trait.

Post 91

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

"Evil" is not an intelligent being, nor does it live. How can it have a point? Maybe you're trying to say "All people who are evil want to (minimize/make it impossible) for people to experience the feelings pain and and discomfort."
Sorry for being unclear. Evil is actually the willful adoption of a method in life (willful evasion). So when I say the point of evil is absolute avoidance of pain & discomfort (we might as well add hedonism, too), then I'm saying that the reason a person adopts evil (as a method in life) -- is to avoid pain at all costs, and to gain pleasure at no cost. I think that few evil folks are sadists, for instance (deriving pleasure from inflicting pain) -- though all those thoroughly sadistic, are evil.

You don't have to desire the harm of others -- in order to be evil. You just have to be a rampant, evasive pain-avoider/pleasure-seeker. In being rampant & evasive, you will (without exception) force others to pay for your mistakes, and prevent others from gaining from their virtue. The 5 necessary ingredients for evil are:

1) sentience (ability to feel pleasure & pain)
2) sapience (ability to be crafty -- so you can scapegoat well, making others pay for your pleasure seeking & pain avoiding life)
3) victims (for scapegoating -- though evil corrodes your soul, too)
4) evasion (rationalization for self; intentionally duplicity for others)
5) choice (the choice to live as a parasite)

Ed


Post 92

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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I don’t mean the potential offense that this post may, operationally, cause.

 

Some onlookers may feel that I’m merely a willfully-ignorant misogynist -- talking out of my #$%-hole. I admit that there is a chance that I’m totally wrong & deluded. That said, I can’t seem to turn away from the matter. Informed reasons for statistical differences – that is my quest here. Understand, understand, understand – that’s why I beat my brow.

 

I want to share quotes from others that appeal to, or validate, my experience -- in trying to understand the opposite sex well. I think it offers perspective and some potential validation of my inquiry/comments here in this thread. Here are some quotes, mostly from great-quotes.com …

 

Quote:  

Woman is not born: she is made. In the making, her humanity is destroyed. She becomes symbol of this, symbol of that: mother of the earth, slut of the universe; but she never becomes herself because it is forbidden for her to do so.

Author:  

Andrea Dworkin 1946-, American Feminist Critic

 

 

Except one from www.bartleby.com

 

QUOTATION:

Virtue and vice suppose the freedom to choose between good and evil; but what can be the morals of a woman who is not even in possession of herself, who has nothing of her own, and who all her life has been trained to extricate herself from the arbitrary by ruse, from constraint by using her charms?... As long as she is subject to man’s yoke or to prejudice, as long as she receives no professional education, as long as she is deprived of her civil rights, there can be no moral law for her!

ATTRIBUTION:

Flora Tristan (1803–1844), French author. As quoted in Victorian Women, ch. 90, by Erna Olafson Hellerstein, Leslie Parker Hume, and Karen M. Offen (1981).

 

 

Quote:  

I have always found women difficult. I don't really understand them. To begin with, few women tell the truth.

Author:  

Barbara Cartland 1901-, British Novelist

 

 

Quote:  

When a woman behaves like a man why doesn't she behave like a nice man?

Author:  

Dame Edith Evans American Actor

 

 

Quote:  

Observe this, that tho a woman swear, forswear, lie, dissemble, back-bite, be proud, vain, malicious, anything, if she secures the main chance, she's still virtuous; that's a maxim.

Author:  

George Farquhar c.1677-1707, Irish Playwright

 

 

 

Quote:  

The great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer, despite my thirty years of research into the feminine soul, is ''What does a woman want?''

Author:  

Sigmund Freud 1856-1939, Austrian Physician - Founder of Psychoanalysis

 

 

Quote:  

A woman's whole life is a history of the affections. The heart is her world: it is there her ambition strives for empire; it is there her avarice seeks for hidden treasures. She sends forth her sympathies on adventure; she embarks her whole soul on the traffic of affection; and if shipwrecked, her case is hopeless -- for it is a bankruptcy of the heart.

Author:  

Washington Irving 1783-1859, American Author

 

 

Quote:  

Women are natural guerrillas. Scheming, we nestle into the enemy's bed, avoiding open warfare, watching the options, playing the odds.

Author:  

Sally Kempton

 

 

Quote:  

The strength of women comes from the fact that psychology cannot explain us. Men can be analyzed, women merely adored.

Author:  

Oscar Wilde 1856-1900, British Author, Wit

 

 

Quote:  

When women love us, they forgive us everything, even our crimes; when they do not love us, they give us credit for nothing, not even our virtues.

Author:  

Honoré de Balzac

 

Ed


Post 93

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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Dean wrote,

If I am about to meet a new person, and I'm told the person is male or female, I haven't gained the slightest bit of information about how much I'll like them, how smart they are, how just they are, and on and on.
For the potential stone throwers (who see me as a vile, misogynist woman-hater -- for exploring this matter in such detail), I AGREE with this sentiment of Dean's.

Ed


Post 94

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

So what you're saying is, you want to see the spirits of women everywhere crushed under the collective boot of male domination?

Acerbically,
Sarah

Post 95

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:16pmSanction this postReply
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Erik,
Didn't Ayn Rand more or less praise the differences of the sexes? Just read her novels. Yes, her heroes and heroines exemplified reason, but she also kept their gender differences intact.
Yep.
Who wants to live in a hermaphroditic world where the sexes were completey objective, but indistinguishable?
I want to live in a world where people are free to do whatever they want to their own bodies. No one here has mentioned a desire for everyone to be the same. I like fit & tone bodies of both sexes. "masculine" "femininity" hahahaha : ).
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 1/02, 9:27pm)


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Post 96

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, I'll agree that some women are like your describing. Yet, are you to say that more women are like this than men? Maybe we should take a random survey. Can you put together a survey that would identify which people are like this? We could also include questions like race, age, etc.

Until you collect the data, and until I see your data collecting methods and the data myself, I'm not going to consider these claims as having any merit.

Edit: changed "lots of women" to "some women"
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 1/02, 9:55pm)


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Post 97

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, what weird posts. Perhaps I can match that.

I have a friend who believes that the more uptight a man is the smaller his...

Michael


Post 98

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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True enough, Dean.

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Post 99

Monday, January 2, 2006 - 10:41pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

That's a lot of effort you are expending to explain women. I just slap 'em around when they get out of line.

Michael


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