About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 20

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 9:08amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Question Jeff - does a dog see a mirage? If not, then that implies only conceptual beings so see, which further implies it is more than just the perceptual usage of the senses in determining knowing reality correctly - which makes Rand's assessment of Kant correct...
(Edited by robert malcom on 9/06, 9:09am)


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 21

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hong Zhang left after posting this.

That's too bad. I liked Hong.

Btw, is there a discussion list to which the vicious scum, maggots, Brandbourne Christian Temperance Unionists, Saddamites, duh celebs, namblaphiles, weasel-worded, clever-dick smart-ass pomos, appeasers of evil, and other assorted creepy-crawly Linz-bashers and betrayers have moved?

J


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 22

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Try www.thoughtsonobjectivism.com ...

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 23

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

“I am tired of the outright callousness I have seen on Solo.” [Kat, above]

So, you’ve reconsidered your tone and maligning of Phil and his motivations, back when you wrote:

‘Phil, if you hate it here so much, why don’t you just leave.’ [Kat, from memory]

It’s different when the punching bag is you.

Don’t leave, Kat.

Jon

Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 24

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I like poking hornets nests to see what comes out, so I might not be the best judge of this epidemic of hurt feelings over Linz's volcanic fulminations.  Even if, for the sake of argument, we say that Linz's flames are always unjust and unwarranted, the boo-hooing over them strikes me as womanish.  Why not instead take some interest in how you provoked fury over the mere exchange of words?  Why not let curiosity rather than wounded pride drive your response?

I'll tell you why.  No one can get his pride wounded by a flame unless he has foolishly invested a part of his ego in what distant people posting messages to each other in the dessicated medium of the internet think of him.  Go ahead and cry over getting your ass torched by Linz, but remember you and you alone exposed yourself.  If you hadn't, Linz's flaming, fair or unfair, wouldn't have mattered to you.

I'll give you another reason.  Your flamer is right and is letting you know that with all the obnoxiousness he can muster.  It drives you up the wall that you got nothing but your indignation to show in response.  (Actually you would be wrong.  You also have your integrity, which you could heighten by graciously acknowledging your mistake.  Check the paragraph above as to why that doesn't appeal to you.)  So you grandstand and exhort the others to tsk-tsk your opponent's flames.

None of this reflects well upon an Objectivist, who should be fireproof if self-respect means anything.

Andy


Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 25

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 10:45amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Okay - rewind.   I just want to clarify that this is not a grandstand exit and I am not leaving Solo.  I am simply resigning myself to a more feminine role, like shutting up.   I simply refuse to feed the trolls or engage in conversations with assholes and the guru-wannabes who delight in taking an innocent comment as an invitation to a lynching.  They will not run me out.

I come here to learn and interact with others who share my core philosophy.  I have never presented myself as an intellectual or anything more than just an everyday gal trying to apply Objectivism to everyday life.  I don't appreciate being called a communist because I have not read a certain book yet or am too mainstream in my thinking.  I am not here to debate or split hairs. 

I will talk to my friends and the many good people here.   I still love Linz, Solo and most of the people here....especially MSK.    I have no use for Steven, Rick or Andy or any other mean person who enjoys taking a self-righteous randroid tone.   I don't have to talk to them and they are not welcome in the kitchen.

Kat


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 26

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 11:00amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kat,
I have no use for Steven, Rick or Andy or any other mean person who enjoys taking a self-righteous randroid tone.   I don't have to talk to them and they are not welcome in the kitchen.
If you were expecting me to treat you with kid gloves, you were mistaken ... and hypocritical.  Your posts are not shining examples of fair-mindedness and civility.

Andy


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 27

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Even if, for the sake of argument, we say that Linz's flames are always unjust and unwarranted, the boo-hooing over them strikes me as womanish. 

Excellent point, Andy. Expect more womanish boo-hooing over your use of the term "womanish."


Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Post 28

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andy said in post #24:
Why not instead take some interest in how you provoked fury over the mere exchange of words?  Why not let curiosity rather than wounded pride drive your response?

I'll tell you why.  No one can get his pride wounded by a flame unless he has foolishly invested a part of his ego in what distant people posting messages to each other in the dessicated medium of the internet think of him.
Since we're psychologizing here, let's look at the possible motives of the flamer.  Why does he flame?  I would say that he flames because much of his ego is tied up in his ability to come up with yet another nasty adjective to describe those who disagree with him.  He is unable to support his opinions with rational argument, so he maintains his pseudo-self-esteem by exercising his ability to insult in a clever, creative way. 

Since he prizes intelligence, but has neither the desire nor the patience to acquire real knowledge, he uses his quick, mercurial mind to come up with clever,but uninformative, responses.  He also has
foolishly invested a part of his ego in what distant people posting messages to each other in the dessicated medium of the internet think of him.
(Great line, BTW.)
Glenn


Sanction: 22, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 22, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 22, No Sanction: 0
Post 29

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 2:31pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hrm.  So we've added a new word to the SOLO vocabulary:  womanish.  Yay, rational culture!

Here's a thing:  seems like a lot of men and boys on this site have gotten it into their heads that they shouldn't care about the feelings of others.  Well yes, there are folks out there who would hypocritically claim that other people's feelings are the most important things in the whole wide world and must be protected at all costs, blah, blah, blah.  Such people have little integrity and likely haven't reasoned much (if anything) out for themselves.  And yes, there are times when a healthy self-esteem demands that we disregard another's feelings in favor of getting our own needs met.  And there are places like SOLO where the founder encourages you to proclaim it loudly and often.

HOWEVER, this does not mean that a total disregard and outright disdain for the feelings of others is admirable.  It does not mean that every demeaning bigoted term in the lexicon is fair game for every discussion.  It is not courageous.  It is not heroic.  It does not demonstrate an uncompromisingly coherent philosophical vision.  It is simply very tiresome and draining for people to put up with.  It is simply another way of saying "fuck you" to a whole sector of humanity.  Very reasonable people, a disproportionate number of them women, are leaving this site because this behavior has run amok.  This kind of thing is not unique to SOLO, it is at least as old as the first "no girls allowed" sign on the first tree house.  I doubt that any self-respecting woman would want to have anything to do with a boy who still got off on using words like "womanish" in conversation.  For most of us, that kind of talk fell by the wayside when we stopped using the term "cooties." 

-Kevin


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 30

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hmmmmm - isn't that right up there with "girlie-man"?

Post 31

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The kettle called... you're black.

---Landon


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 32

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I don't think a lot of people are leaving SOLO, but rather that some are leaving SOLO. Of course, there is some publicity that is amplifying the facts.  That is common in all forums. The reasons behind the leaving I don't usually understand, they often seem to involve claims of abuse by the management. It must be pretty focused, if they are talking about Linz, because from what I can see his postings are pretty minimal, if you consider the total membership. Even if every single one of them were full of venom (which they are not), it still doesn't really account for a mass exodus. Unless people are that thin-skinned. My gut feel is that people come into SOLO with preconceived attitudes, and sometimes are in fighting mode. Not always a bad plan, but first one must be aware of what the battle is, if any, in order to argue. SOLO is an intellectual forum, and it goes without saying that it will take many twists and turns. That is part of the beauty of it.

Maybe I just haven't experienced the full wrath of Linz. He put me on moderation once, but I think he just pulled the trigger too fast and they took me right off anyway. I like his scathing style. It reminds me of me. Well, parts...


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 33

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Excellent point, Andy. Expect more womanish boo-hooing over your use of the term "womanish."
Thanks, Andrew, and kudos on your insight which was quickly proven out.

As for all of you New Puritans who would whitewash all the color out of the English language in the name of namby-pamby political correctness, take note of the second definition of "womanish" from the 10th Edition of Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary:  Unsuitable to a man or to a strong character of either sex.

Andy


Post 34

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Great line, BTW.
Thanks, Glenn.

As for examining the motivations of the flamer, I predicated my screed against the womanish boo-hooers upon the judgment that the flamer was in the wrong.  My point was not to exonerate the flamer but to get the flamed to look beyond the flame.  Of course, if there is nothing there, then there is even less reason to be upset about empty insults.

Andy


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 35

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 3:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"I don't appreciate being called a communist because I...am too mainstream in my thinking."

Ahh, that blessed middle ground. Good for you, we're all a bunch of randroid radicals and you're the voice of reason. And we're supposed to treat this invective with respect?

How fair-minded of you to call me a troll. That's respectful. If you can't take criticism and have to sulk and pout instead of engage in actual conversation, well, bye then. It's your choice to leave, and I am not going to apologize for what I said and I am not going to belittle myself and beg you to stay.

On a larger note, I am exhilarated by the passion here. It's natural for individuals as strong-minded as Objectivists, and as intelligent, to resort to heated words. I live off of the debate and what it brings to me intellectually. If you want somewhere boring and dry, try TOC. They'll respect someone no matter what he says. Me, I prefer to be a barking-mad dogmatist than a softie. So be it.

Post 36

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Okay, I'll take this as a legitimate pursuit of knowledge at this point.  That being said, we must define our terms else it will spiral.  By the way, I have read Kant.

 What he maintains is that because our sense organs are what they are, because they have the particular makeup, the particular character, they do, they cannot bring us knowledge of the way reality is in itself;
First question-What do you mean by "the way reality is in itself"?


Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Post 37

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 4:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Looks as though I need to clarify a few things.

First, Mr. Riggenbach wrote:

Seriously, Donald, I'm not angry at all. I'm somewhat exasperated by the SOLO "editor" who put up this post ("Can't This Pompous Ass Take What He Dishes Out?") *after* posting my reply to Linz, at a time when it was now irrelevant and no longer applied.

The person to be exasperated with, Jeff, is not the SOLO editor, Andrew, but me. I posted your reply as soon as I saw it, which was clearly not soon enough for you but was a function of the fact that moderated posts can't get posted till a moderator sees them. Duh! A short while later I spotted Can't This Pompous Ass Take What He Dishes Out? I considered it relevant still because it showed that a self-proclaimed intellectual giant couldn't figure out the aforementioned fact about moderation—duh!–and then threw a puerile tantrum at one of his hosts (me). Since so many have been belittled by this intellectual giant as intellectual pygmies, I thought I would allow this insight into the nature of their belittler to go through, best described by you yourself Mr. Riggenbach in your words immediately following those above:

And I'm annoyed by twits and ignoramuses who strut around and pound their chests, amid delusions of their vast knowledge.

No Kantian distortion in your mirror, Mr. Riggenbach!

As to the fitting cap-post of mine that Mr. Riggenbach so angrily donned, let me quote it in its entirety, just in case folk think the only thing I had to say about For the New Intellectual was that anarcho-Saddamites wouldn't like it:

For the New Intellectual is a KASS masterpiece. It's a tour de force, a polemical call to arms that easily surpasses, say, The Communist Manifesto from one of the opposing camps. To hell with the carping nay-sayers who say she misinterpreted Kant! Everyone who interprets Kant says that about everyone else who interprets Kant! Given that he was so effing convoluted he deserves every misinterpretation that he gets. Point is: Did he teach a reality/perception dichotomy? Yes! Did he preach a duty/self-renunciation ethic? Yes! That makes him a witch-doctor, sight unseen.

Rand's Attila/Witch-Doctor/Producer distinction is right on the money. I would expect clever-dick smart-ass anarcho-Saddamites who specialise in snide one-liners to have a problem with something so fundamentally decent, but not TOC or ARI. TOC probably allow the nay-sayers to speak, as we do here, but I'm sure that doesn't mean they, any more than we, want to turn the other way when FTNI is mentioned.


The last line about nay-sayers is important. It says something important about SOLO. It explains why people can come here & attack SOLO's founder the way they do in several posts on this thread & not be thrown out. The point is, this "pompous ass" cantake what he dishes out, & he does, even though he's under no obligation to.

All I would add is that I stand by what I dish out (or apologise if I subsequently deem myself to have been unjust), but I wouldn't like to have to try to defend the stuff that gets thrown at me.

Jonathan, who can always be relied upon to crawl out from under his pomo rock whenever there's some Linz-bashing going on, lists various epithets I have hurled: "Anarcho-Saddamites," "Clever-dick smart-ass pomo wankers," "Weasel-worders," "Namblaphiles," "Brandbourne Christian Temperance Union," etc.. Well, all of these terms have referents in reality: the people of whom they are an accurate description. Usually, however, the terms are used generically, and again it's fascinating to see how many folk step up wearing the cap that fits.

Adam, always eager to twist the knife in with a smile on his face, lists the women who've left. All five of them. Four, really, since Diana was never a regular poster here. I wasn't aware that Hong had officially left till I followed Adam's link. Seems she was upset by Marty's article about Western civilisation as well as with SOLO generally for allowing "incivility" to occur. So be it. But I need to correct one thing she said: Neither Newberry nor Cordero is in "exile" as far as I'm concerned. If he is, it's self-imposed exile. Those two haven't been banished any more than the Five Fleeing Floozies were banished. The Five Fleeing Floozies fled of their own accord. I mourn only one of them, Kelly Elmore. That woman has fire & balls, & it astonished me that she buckled so readily just because some heat was rightfully being turned on her husband.

The Limp-Dick/Hard-On divide has become sharper since yesterday when I first mentioned it. I suppose it's inevitable that more Limp-Dicks will shrivel up altogether & disappear, since that is what Limp-Dicks do. That's over to them, though.

I always wanted SOLO to be a place where ARIans, TOCites & homeless Objectivists & non-Objectivists & even good-faith anti-Objectivists could engage, since ARI doesn't allow such engagement & TOC qua TOC engages in very little except sleep. We are seeing, in part, precisely such engagement, if I'm not mistaken. But I want to do better than that. I want to see a new Objectivist culture that embodies "rational passion & passionate reason," "the total passion for the total height" (no need to quote the Credo to me, Mr. Dickey—I wrote it). Joe & Jeff & I set up this magnificent site as a vehicle for just that. To the Hards-On I say, "GREAT to have you on board. You're whom we need & value most. Stay here, & stay hard!" To the Limp-Dicks I say, "Don't shrivel up altogether & disappear. Relish the challenge & rise to the occasion!"

(Hint—a thicker hide & a sense of humour will help!)

KASS, everybody! :-)

Linz
(Edited by Lindsay Perigo
on 9/06, 4:52pm)

(Edited by Lindsay Perigo
on 9/06, 4:55pm)


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 38

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"What do you mean by 'the way reality is in itself'?"

The way reality is, irrespective of the perspective or context of any particular observer.

JR

Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 39

Tuesday, September 6, 2005 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kat,

I think that your use of the epithet "randroid" is inaccurate. That term is properly reserved for people with an unhousebroken habit of religious literalism - what Maimonides called "the erudition of earthworms" - who are attempting to apply it to the work of Ayn Rand as though it were their previous religion. It doesn't work, and it is its own punishment, but it is not what we are seeing here on SOLO.

What is going on here is just the fake-macho posturing of people who, while willing to banter with a woman if she seems "macho" enough, simply do not value the "feminine" virtues of contextuality and civility enough to encourage them on SOLO. Or who just do not value women qua women.

There is a lot of value to be gotten from SOLO in spite of the fake-macho posturing of some of its participants and management. I hope that you will not follow the 5 who don't post here any more. I keep hoping that those responsible will be Randian enough to see, in the near future, exactly how counterproductive their fake-macho posturing actually is, and change their ways.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.