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Post 100

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 12:59pmSanction this postReply
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They should no longer be considered as my opinion of you.
That's gracious of you, Michael.  Thank you.

Andy


Post 101

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 1:02pmSanction this postReply
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Sarah,
Don't abuse that fact.
I'll think about it.

Andy


Post 102

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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Am I the only one here who finds Andy's sense of humour very funny?

Andy, fwiw, I thought you got a bit of a hard time on the "Sarah gets a reading lesson" thread. The humour in it was immediately apparent to me.


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Post 103

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 1:49pmSanction this postReply
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Andy is a clever dick pomo Saddamite limp dick old woman. He acts like a jackass, baiting people, and then points and says 'ha ha, it was a joke' or 'aha, it was an experiment.'

Post 104

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the compliment, Tim.  As for the hard time, I was asking for it.  I know full well that an already dry sense of humor can evaporate quickly in the ether of the internet.

Andy


Post 105

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 1:53pmSanction this postReply
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I love you, too, Scott.

Andy


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Post 106

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Pomo.

Post 107

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
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Evaporate !  

Never

Mr Postema,  you are still ARE very much a legend.

Louise


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Post 108

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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Tim,

I offered the story in good faith, as a case of ‘gauging’ (what the media, or our culture at large would call ‘gauging’) performed by the customer, the party regarded as exclusively prone to gauging. You never hear stories in the media where someone ‘gauges’ the store, the salesman, or the business. I thought my story would thereby illuminate the silliness of the limp’s premises, including the premise that it’s customers who are at risk because they suffer under the superior power of the business.

You are correct that I wasn’t really looking for feedback, I already know the ethics of what I did, they’re impeccable. So, yes, my *second* motivation in offering the story was to provoke some already upset people. Not different from your hilarious, ‘Yeah, but what if the guy wants to sodomize the boy for the video?’ comment. You are right that at least one of my follow-up postings was strong. As explanation, I was genuinely shocked—I expected criticism only from limps. (Note that my response to Glenn was polite, and that I didn’t tear into Lance.)

I am posting this in good faith. I am now genuinely interested in what any hard thinks about the following analysis. And I will not respond at all for 24 hours, because I want to prevent myself from coming back strongly if I get shocked again.

--

A negative judgment of my actions depends upon positing that I created a bona-fide contract when I uttered, “OK, fine. I’ll see you this afternoon.” I would argue that no such contract was created—only a whetting of his appetite for one, but that is not essential—so I’ll grant that a contract was created. Had I called back *immediately* to reverse myself, I would be in breach of contract. (And you would have to judge this act as equally treacherous to what I actually did do.) I would owe him his damages, namely, nothing. Fifty minutes later, I reversed myself in person, in breach of contract. I therefore owed him his damages; again, nothing. If reliance on my intentions would cause him to order more cars, or affect his business prospects in any substantial way, the case would be different. Context.

This is not meant as a put-down, and it is aimed at no one specific. People who have not experienced industries like used car lots or commercial real estate cannot appreciate the full impact of being eyed as potential toilet paper. You have to experience it. And then you get a very different mindset. One aspect of that mindset is: ‘This deal ain’t over ‘till it’s over.'

Jon

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Post 109

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 3:54pmSanction this postReply
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Andy,
I'll think about it.

Is this supposed to be a joke as well? Even if it is, you're not earning points in my book.

And no, I don't find Andy's sense of humor funny, I find it malicious.

Sarah

Post 110

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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Jon

OK, good response. Let's start over then.

The first thing is, your story is different from the price gouging theory. "Price gouging", whether true or not, has nothing to do with dishonesty. The alleged gouger is quite up front about raising the price, so honesty isn't the issue.

Your story concerns the separate issue of honesty in dealings. Given they are different matters one can easily be a "hard" in terms of the price gouging notion, but what you might call a "soft" in terms of the honesty issue, although I think the hard/soft dichotomy is a false one when it comes to honesty, since I wouldn't call it soft to uphold honesty as a virtue.

I understand the point that you can't let yourself get walked all over in business. There is a balance to be struck somewhere between being an outright crook and being naively honest. And to be honest, whether you crossed the boundary or not is for you to decide, and you clearly have anyway.

I try and avoid doing business at all with people I don't feel I can trust. That certainly would have been my response had I been in your situation, because it sounds like the only other options were to either get ripped off or to rip the other guy off yourself. Neither sounds particularly appealing to me.

Tim

PS. Scott, thanks for the big laugh on post 106.

(Edited by Tim Sturm on 9/08, 4:24pm)


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Post 111

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Tim:

"I try and avoid doing business at all with people I don't feel I can trust."

If more people lived by Tim Sturm rules, the market for clever dick car dealers and pomo limp dick double dealing business-people would evaporate faster than you could say "old woman Saddamite!" But people pay LIP SERVICE to the "I value customer service" and "I value businesses with integrity"--and the plans go out the window for less than 10% difference in purchase price. Chances are, the clever dick pomos are picking your lef tpocket while you pay with your right, or are screwing someone else to give you your 10%.

Tim, important words to live by, and also an extremely MORAL thing to do. Fucken Saddamite.

Post 112

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 5:16pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,
I agree with you in principle, but quite honestly I can't imagine obtaining 90% of the goods and services I do without dealing with (partially) dishonest people daily.  Clearly, honesty, like all virtues is a matter of degree in the real world we presently occupy. Used Car Salesman, statisticallly tend to be one of the more egregious and obvious examples, but (as you well know) they are far from the only one.  (Most people would prefer not to deal with car sales personnel at all, but currently it's a toss up between Internet shopping and locking in the specific car desired at a less than ideal price, vs. a lot of unpleasant haggling and getting a better price.  You're balancing the value of your time (and sanity) vs. the value of your hard earned dollars.  Never an easy calculation.)

And doing business with, or restricting myself to, the 10% would represent a sacrifice. It's the dilemma of the modern world.  It's what gives Marxists most of their bogus plausibility and provides rationalizations for most business regulation. Regrettable, but true.

Jeff


Post 113

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Two hours later and I'm still LMAO @ Scott DeSalvo. Fucking hilarious Scott.

Post 114

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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"I agree with you in principle, but quite honestly I can't imagine obtaining 90% of the goods and services I do without dealing with (partially) dishonest people daily"

We agree, Jeff. But an intersting point raised by my scowl-buddy Jon is: so what guides your conduct when dealing with someone who is immoral in their business dealings? Must you, for integrity's sake, 'play by the rules' when haggling with a scoundrel, or should you play by the same rules in that context only?

My position is that when you KNOW you are dealing with a scoundrel, they have set the rules. The preference is not to deal with him. The fall back position is fuck or be fucked, if you will pardon my potty mouth. Once the deal is done, make sure you retain your integrity in all other dealings.

Maybe I'm wrong, though, because principles or morality do not change based on context. Maybe the proper road IS the high road, period.

Post 115

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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Tim Sturm is cool, and one of the sharpest guys on this site. And very benevolent, from what I've seen. Tim, you should post more often. I could take a benevolence page out of your playbook, what, with my incessant pomo Saddamite old womanish wanker limp dick namby-pamby subjectivist whim worship and all.

Post 116

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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And here I go again, but I will be boiled in 25 year old single malt scotch if Jeff Perren doesn't seem like about the nicest, most laid back guy in the world. I've told him that in private correspondence, and the rest of you should read his posts and articles, because the guy is a mensch, and I dont even speak yiddish. He is one of those guys you just take a liking to, and wish you lived closer cuz theres a bottle of vino with our names on it, you know?

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Post 117

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,
I've only time for a brief reply to your excellent question. (I'll try to make time for a fuller answer tomorrow.) One point, though.  Moral principles may not change with context, but their proper application certainly does.  I'm sure you know this already and just mis-spoke.

Jeff


Post 118

Thursday, September 8, 2005 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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Scott,

Good of you to think so, but if you knew me better you'd know I was one of the most cantankerous hard-asses alive.  I'm only 'nice' to people I evaluate as worth it, which isn't often, I'm sorry to say.  And as for being 'laid-back' -- no one who knows me (myself included) would recognize the person you describe as bearing any likeness to me.  I am high-strung, intense, driven, constantly searching, inclined to pessimism (which I struggle against daily), and generally think the world went to hell roughly around 1965. (Though of course the roots go back much further, and the beginnings of  a renaissance seem to be underway.)  It requires a perpetual philosophical reminder to avoid becoming a cynic.  Fortunately, I learned (from a wise young female) in my teens that cynicism is the last resort of the idealist. So I chose not to go that route, since it represents surrender, which I will never do.

But, I've already said too much, so I'll stop here.  But thanks for thinking well of me.  It means a lot coming from you.

Jeff


Post 119

Friday, September 9, 2005 - 1:19amSanction this postReply
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Hey! What did I miss?

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