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Post 140

Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 3:48pmSanction this postReply
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GBL,

What is not intended (purposed) is necessarily unintended (accident) ...
But 'accident' is a term having at least 2 senses (depending on what you're contrasting it against) ...

1) unnintended things which decrease value (when it's being contrasted against intentional decreases of value -- like intentionally driving off a cliff vs. accidentally sliding off of it)

2) non-essential things which didn't "have to" be a certain way (when it's being contrasted against things that had to be a certain way, due to their "essentiality")

Which sense of the term "accident" do you mean to be using here, GBL?

You bring up intentions, which makes me think you refer to the first -- but you also bring up identity, which makes me think you refer to the second.

Are you equivocating between these 2 senses of the term: "accident"?

Ed



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Post 141

Friday, April 13, 2007 - 5:51amSanction this postReply
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Zorro wrote to me:
Here is something that you and I do agree on: the atheist position of the last 2500 years, and as held by such as Anthony Flew and Bertrand Russell is false. You see, all the top atheists in western society, beginning with certain presocratics, all agree with the definition of naturalism that I gave, none assert your definition.  So, in your effort to save atheism (something you really haven't done), you must reject all prior atheists including Flew, Russell, Ingersol and the like. I am glad that we can agree that they were all wrong.
Zorro wrote to Ed:
Are you now agreeing with Merlin that all atheists for the last 2500 years are wrong?
Zorro is wrong again and trying to put words in my mouth . I have not agreed and do not agree with this gadfly's -- er, godfly's -- sophistry.


Post 142

Friday, April 13, 2007 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Ed wrote:

GBL,


What is not intended (purposed) is necessarily unintended (accident) ...
But 'accident' is a term having at least 2 senses (depending on what you're contrasting it against) ...

1) unnintended things which decrease value (when it's being contrasted against intentional decreases of value -- like intentionally driving off a cliff vs. accidentally sliding off of it)

2) non-essential things which didn't "have to" be a certain way (when it's being contrasted against things that had to be a certain way, due to their "essentiality")

Which sense of the term "accident" do you mean to be using here, GBL?
The sentence you quote is fairly obvious, don't you think? The contrast of antithesis is "intended" with "unintended," as the sentence reads. What is not intended is necessarily unintended is it not? If you would like to leave out the word accident because it is confusing to you, please feel free.

You bring up intentions, which makes me think you refer to the first -- but you also bring up identity, which makes me think you refer to the second.

Are you equivocating between these 2 senses of the term: "accident"?
My comment about identity was not directed toward the definition of "accident," but in regards to Robert's maintaining a contradiction. I wrote:

The problem is what you have written above is a denial of identity! This is because it is a denial of the law of non-contradiction.
 I think that is clear. Wouldn't you agree that it is impossible to have identity without the law of non-contradiction?

Now, how about replying to my to posts 124 and 139.

G. Brady Lenardos



Post 143

Friday, April 13, 2007 - 11:28amSanction this postReply
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Please do not feed the trolls.

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Post 144

Friday, April 13, 2007 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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Wikipedia has an interesting article about this recent internet term, "troll":
The term troll is highly subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. The term is often used to discredit an opposing position, or its proponent, by argument fallacy ad hominem.[citation needed]
Often, calling someone a troll makes assumptions about a writer's motives. Regardless of the circumstances, controversial posts may attract a particularly strong response from those unfamiliar with the robust dialogue found in some online, rather than physical, communities.[citation needed]
Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning "Please do not feed the troll".[citation needed]
The word troll is often and easily (mis)used as an ad hominem attack against someone whose viewpoints and input cannot otherwise be silenced (i.e., via banning). Its successful use and misuse reveals much about how starkly different the world of technicians is compared to normal social and political discourse.

The whole article can be found here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll


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Post 145

Friday, April 13, 2007 - 4:01pmSanction this postReply
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Ed: “…let's take the axiom that "consciousness is identification" (of various existences within reality). How do we come to know the truth of that? By thinking about our perceptions.”

And how do you think about your perceptions? Surely by using concepts. And how do you derive those concepts? It can’t be from the perceptions, because that is to beg the question.

“And though I could validate the truth of this matter a posteriori (with telescopes and whatnot…”

And that’s exactly the difference between truths that are known a priori and those known a posteriori. The latter are justified by appeal to experience. The former are justified independently of experience.

For example, we do not need to investigate round objects to justify the claim that ‘all circles are round’. But the fact that the Morning Star and the Evening Star are both instances of the planet Venus can only be justified by appeal to experience, ie observation.

The axioms are in that case a priori, since they are not justified by any particular experience or observation.

Brendan

Post 146

Friday, April 13, 2007 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin wrote:

Zorro is wrong again and trying to put words in my mouth .
Sorry, didn't mean to.

I have not agreed and do not agree with this gadfly's -- er, godfly's -- sophistry.
I really don't understand your disagreement. The cosmological elements you advanced are different than those of atheists for the last 2500 years. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. The dualistic implications of your Ad Hoc insertion is anathema to the monism of historic atheism. You don't need a Ph.D. in philosophy to see that. So, either you are wrong or all western atheists for the last 2500 years are wrong.

No sophistry here, just a straight forward contrast and compare of the two positions.

G. Brady Lenardos



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Post 147

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 6:02amSanction this postReply
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Zorro wrote:
I really don't understand your disagreement. The cosmological elements you advanced are different than those of atheists for the last 2500 years. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. The dualistic implications of your Ad Hoc insertion is anathema to the monism of historic atheism. You don't need a Ph.D. in philosophy to see that. So, either you are wrong or all western atheists for the last 2500 years are wrong.
From the start I objected to your claim that all atheist cosmologies deny knowledge. You may be entitled to claim that for some, but not for all. I'm not so presumptuous to claim that I know enough about the cosmologies of all atheists, living or dead, even if restricted to recognized philosophers. But it seems you are. In any case, I believe "materialism" is a more common and accurate label for what you call "naturalism." There are atheists who hold that reality is more than simply matter in motion, but you try to make them monist-materialist. I offered "meaning" as something more. Ed T. offered intention and consciousness. Bill Dwyer offered consciousness. Ayn Rand even made consciousness an axiom! We don't subscribe to monism-materialism. The position is sometimes called property dualism, which is not substance dualism. Do you exclude Rand from "atheists for the last 2500 years"? Moreover, she certainly did not deny the existence of knowledge, directly or indirectly.

I call your thesis "sophisty" because you treat all atheists alike or try to stuff every one of them into your two pigeonholes (Negationism and Naturism or Naturalism). I don't buy it, have refuted it, and this is probably my last post on the subject.


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Post 148

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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And the fact that the Horseman has been given enough to chew on and still repeats the same things, over and over....

That's why he's a troll!


Post 149

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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     One conclusion I've come to is that some apparent 'trolls' are inadvertently such; some posters just love to debate fine points just for the sake of doing so. They're not intentionally luring anyone, just looking for others interested in...debating. Such seem to be, but, are not really, 'trolls.' A fine point it is to distinguish such ('motivation'-wise) from actual 'trolls.' A troll is definable by one's (subjective?) induction about the motivation of the neverending debating (including an ignoring of one's own points brought up!)

     An interesting question is: What name to label the seduced 'troll'-feeders (apart from that!) --- Maybe P.T. Barnum can help?

LLAP
J:D


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Post 150

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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I have long believed that there are some people in this world that hold beliefs they don't really believe (hard for most of us to even hold that concept in our mind).  It makes for an increase in feelings of insecurity.  They then want, even need, to debate others in support of these ideas.  Hoping at some level that debate can fool others into buying into false ideas and that will somehow make it more okay to hold them and diminish those free-floating background fears.

When they argue they feel it is okay to be manipulative or illogical in their posts because the point is that if they can 'win' or even just stay 'alive' over time while arguing with people who hold correct beliefs, that it is somehome, evidence that they are safe to continue to hold beliefs that are not valid.  Being in a debate, they imagine on some murky level, gives them equal intellectual and moral status with those whom they debate.  If you are saying, "That's crazy!"  You're right - it isn't a consciously held or reasonable approach.  It is a following of whims - a matter of enslaving the critical faculty to emotions of fright and fear and hate.

With enough time, their soul warps, and this particular kind of troll no longer feels the need for staying in the debate and instead becomes quite pleased at frustrating those who approach life with rationality as a cardinal virtue.  It is a shift of motive to a secret joy in screwing up rational discourse while pretending to be the very soul of reason.

I don't know any of the people in this thread so this post isn't intended to characterize any particular person or persons.  It was just a thought prompted by John's post on troll motives.


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Post 151

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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In Post 134, Liebniz wrote (to Ed Thompson),
You say that some of the matter was "actually moved intentionally"--moved, no doubt, by conscious beings such as ourselves. But I'm not sure how consideration of human intentionality "prevents epistemological dead-ends". On the contrary, it seems to create such dead-ends, since the following questions naturally arise: What was it that intentionally moved matter? Was it some kind of (moving) matter itself? If so, can a tenable account be provided as to how this kind of matter was able to exercise intentionality?
A better term than "matter" would be "material entity," since it is entities that engage in action. The question, then, would be: what kind of material entity exhibits intentionality? To which the answer is: one that is conscious. Consciousness is a faculty of material organisms, specifically of animals, both rational and non-rational. Intentionality is a property possessed by both, since both the lower animals and man are goal-directed organisms. (Of course, if by "intention" one means a conceptually identified purpose, then "intentions" would exist only in man.)
(Note: Several philosophers of mind have succeeded (in my estimation) in offering plausible, putatively 'materialistic' accounts of mental phenomena. However, none of these accounts--given that they invoke mental (i.e. immaterial) properties of the brain--seem to me legitimately materialistic.)
Well, Objectivists are not materialists in that sense of the term -- in the sense that they deny consciousness or mental phenomena. Obviously, the mind exists, but it is nevertheless a function of the brain and physical sense organs.
Even if introspection does provide us with proof of the intentional agency of man, the issue at hand is not whether man is an intentional agent. The issue is whether it is possible to give a materialistic account of intentionality--because the larger issue is whether knowledge, which involves intentionality, is possible within a materialistic universe.
Of course, knowledge is not possible in a universe without consciousness -- without material entities that are conscious (if that's what is meant by "materialistic universe") -- but neither is it possible in entities that are non-material. Knowledge requires entities that are both conscious and material, since an immaterial entity (if such existed) would lack the physical organs required for consciousness and knowledge.

Brady argues that knowledge is not possible in a materialistic universe, by which I take it he means a universe without consciousness. I agree. But he should also recognize that knowledge isn't possible in a non-material being like God.

- Bill

Post 152

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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Brendan,

... we do not need to investigate round objects to justify the claim that ‘all circles are round’ ...
We, initially, did (when the roundness of circles had to first be perceived in order to be believed -- because a non-perceptual base of knowledge, a knowledge entirely dependent on concepts without any percepts, is absurd).

Ed


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Post 153

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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Merlin wrote:

From the start I objected to your claim that all atheist cosmologies deny knowledge.

Then simply give the demonstration showing one that doesn't! This shouldn't be that hard. There are a limited number of elements to work with.

There are atheists who hold that reality is more than simply matter in motion, but you try to make them monist-materialist. I offered "meaning" as something more. Ed T. offered intention and consciousness. Bill Dwyer offered consciousness.
And I usually thank them for sharing their statements of faith. But, statements of faith do not an argument make. I offered you the chance to produce a cosmology that was different from negationism and naturalism. After one of two questions you abandoned it. This is not the first time I have made this offer to atheists, and the result is always the same. Why do you think I am always so eager to offer it? 

Your above "argument" boils down to "Atheism can get us to knowledge, because Ed said so, because Bill said so, because I said so."

Ayn Rand even made consciousness an axiom!
The fact that you think anyone can make anything into an axiom, shows a basic misunderstanding of the issues.

I call your thesis "sophisty" because you treat all atheists alike or try to stuff every one of them into your two pigeonholes (Negationism and Naturism or Naturalism). I don't buy it, have refuted it, and this is probably my last post on the subject.
Yes, negationism and naturalism do encompass all logical possibilities. Oh, by the way, you haven't refuted anything. Your failed attempt at a third option should make that clear. As demonstrated, merely adding Ad Hoc elements that you can not define or explain in relation to the other elements of your supposed cosmology, does not solve the problem, but multiplies it. Now, instead of needing one argument you can not produce, you need two arguments that you can not produce.

G. Brady Lenardos


Post 154

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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Steven Druckenmiller wrote:


And the fact that the Horseman has been given enough to chew on and still repeats the same things, over and over...
I keep repeating the same thing over and over, because no one here can answer it.

Here is your opportunity Steven. You can prove me wrong and I will be happy to go away. You can do it all. You can rid this forum of me forever. All you have to do is demonstrate how given the elements of any atheistic cosmology, you get to knowledge. If you don't like negationism or naturalism, feel free to make up one of your own that doesn't include Ad Hoc elements or elements that cannot be defined or explained in relation to the other elements. If you decide to try your own, I will take this as an admission that you agree that neither negationism nor naturalism is up to the task. Why else would anyone try to invent a cosmology?

If you can't offer a sound demonstration, then why don't you leave this forum or at least have the courtesy, in light of your failure, to cease the Ad Hominem attacks.

G. Brady Lenardos


Post 155

Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 9:52pmSanction this postReply
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A better term than "matter" would be "material entity," since it is entities that engage in action. The question, then, would be: what kind of material entity exhibits intentionality? To which the answer is: one that is conscious. Consciousness is a faculty of material organisms, specifically of animals, both rational and non-rational. Intentionality is a property possessed by both, since both the lower animals and man are goal-directed organisms. (Of course, if by "intention" one means a conceptually identified purpose, then "intentions" would exist only in man.)
I agree with you thus far. 
Obviously, the mind exists, but it is nevertheless a function of the brain and physical sense organs.
I agree that there must be a very close connection between the mind and body, but I'm not sure that material entities like brains and supporting bodies are sufficient for human thought.
Of course, knowledge is not possible in a universe without consciousness -- without material entities that are conscious (if that's what is meant by "materialistic universe") -- but neither is it possible in entities that are non-material. Knowledge requires entities that are both conscious and material, since an immaterial entity (if such existed) would lack the physical organs required for consciousness and knowledge.
Your argument...

(1) If I know of no conscious entity that lacks materiality, then (necessarily) no conscious entity can lack materiality (by fiat and/or general incredulity) 

(2) I know of no conscious entity that lacks materiality
________________________________________
Therefore (by my fiat and/or general increduilty, in combination with modus ponens), it is necessary that all conscious entities possess materiality 

...is a very bad one. 
Brady argues that knowledge is not possible in a materialistic universe, by which I take it he means a universe without consciousness. I agree. But he should also recognize that knowledge isn't possible in a non-material being like God.

He should recognize this by what argument?  The Argument from Dwyerian Incredulity?

(Edited by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on 4/15, 9:55pm)


Post 156

Monday, April 16, 2007 - 3:50pmSanction this postReply
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Bill wrote:
A better term than "matter" would be "material entity," since it is entities that engage in action. The question, then, would be: what kind of material entity exhibits intentionality? To which the answer is: one that is conscious. Consciousness is a faculty of material organisms, specifically of animals, both rational and non-rational. Intentionality is a property possessed by both, since both the lower animals and man are goal-directed organisms. (Of course, if by "intention" one means a conceptually identified purpose, then "intentions" would exist only in man.)
GWL wrote:

I agree with you thus far.
Bill, I think that  GWL has given you far to much here. You should thank him for the gift. I could not agree with your statement, because I have no idea what you think consciousness is or how it is a "faculty" of material organisms. To be an "organism" already requires something of a leap from inanimate to animate. To be conscious requires another leap from non-sentient to sentient. So, you are saying that all conscious beings are material organisms, but not all material organisms are conscious. GWL has already pointed out the logical flaw in the former proposition. Surely, from a naturalistic world view, if consciousness is a faculty of material organisms, it must be a faculty of matter. Unless you want to say that consciousness is something other than matter in motion following the laws of nature.

Consciousness can only fall into one of the following categories:

1) It is matter in motion bound to follow the laws of nature.
2) It is not matter in motion, yet it is bound to follow the laws of nature.
3) It is matter in motion and independent of the laws of nature.
4) It is not matter in motion and independent of the laws of nature.

So, which one is it?

"Faculty" can mean a power or ability acquired or innate. Which do you mean in the above?

G. Brady Lenardos


Post 157

Monday, April 16, 2007 - 5:16pmSanction this postReply
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I agree that there must be a very close connection between the mind and body, but I'm not sure that material entities like brains and supporting bodies are sufficient for human thought.
My argument was that brains and supporting bodies are necessary for human thought, but a human body with the appropriate physiology (i.e., a conscious, fully functioning brain, sensory organs and nervous system) is sufficient as well. If a person is alive, awake and well with no sensory or brain dysfunction, then he will be conscious.

I wrote, "Of course, knowledge is not possible in a universe without consciousness -- without material entities that are conscious (if that's what is meant by "materialistic universe") -- but neither is it possible in entities that are non-material. Knowledge requires entities that are both conscious and material, since an immaterial entity (if such existed) would lack the physical organs required for consciousness and knowledge.
Your argument...

(1) If I know of no conscious entity that lacks materiality, then (necessarily) no conscious entity can lack materiality (by fiat and/or general incredulity)

(2) I know of no conscious entity that lacks materiality
________________________________________
Therefore (by my fiat and/or general increduilty, in combination with modus ponens), it is necessary that all conscious entities possess materiality

...is a very bad one.
My argument is not simply that I know of no conscious entity that lacks materiality; therefore, none exists. I know of no houses that are pink with purple polka dots, but that doesn't mean that none exists. My argument is that an immaterial consciousness is inconceivable, because consciousness requires material organs of perception and cognition. Perception, by its nature, always takes a particular form, which is determined by the organ of perception, e.g., vision through the eye, hearing through the ear, smell through the olfactory nerve, etc. Formless perception is nonsensical and inconceivable. Similarly, we know that thought is an activity of a material organ, the brain, which depends on its proper functioning. Could thought exist without such an organ? I don't see how. There has to be something that does the thinking -- that processes the sensory input.

In short, to say that consciousness activity can exist without a body, brain and physical sense organs is like saying that digestion can exist without a stomach, walking without legs, or respiration without lungs. An immaterial consciousness is an action without an entity, which is a metaphysical impossibility.

- Bill

Post 158

Monday, April 16, 2007 - 5:34pmSanction this postReply
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Bill wrote:

An immaterial consciousness is an action without an entity
So, now we are left with, consciousness is:

1) It is matter in motion bound to follow the laws of nature.Or
2) It is matter in motion and independent of the laws of nature.

Which one is it Bill?

G. Brady Lenardos


Post 159

Monday, April 16, 2007 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Brady wrote,
Bill, I think that GWL has given you far to much here. You should thank him for the gift. I could not agree with your statement, because I have no idea what you think consciousness is or how it is a "faculty" of material organisms. To be an "organism" already requires something of a leap from inanimate to animate. To be conscious requires another leap from non-sentient to sentient. So, you are saying that all conscious beings are material organisms, but not all material organisms are conscious. GWL has already pointed out the logical flaw in the former proposition.
What logical flaw? All conscious beings are animals, and all animals are material organisms. Q.E.D.
Surely, from a naturalistic world view, if consciousness is a faculty of material organisms, it must be a faculty of matter. Unless you want to say that consciousness is something other than matter in motion following the laws of nature.
What laws of nature are you talking about? The most fundamental law of nature is the law of causality, which is the law of identity applied to action. Everything acts according to its nature. A lion chasing a zebra with an eye to its next meal is following the laws of nature. So is a human being when he engages in a process of thought to determine where his next meal is coming from. A law of nature is simply a description of how things characteristically act or behave. It is by no means limited to the laws of physics.

You mention an alleged "leap" from inanimate to animate, as if life were to be explained by some principle other than the organization or arrangement of its material constituents. However, the evolutionary record suggests that life did indeed arise from inanimate matter. It is true that an entity often exhibits properties that the parts by themselves do not possess, but this does not imply the existence of some supervening principle of order or entelechy. It can be explained by the arrangement of the parts themselves. In his book, The Biological Basis of Teleological Concepts, Harry Binswanger gives the following example:

"[I]magine that we are presented with two hemispherical pieces of wood, each having a sticky substance on its flat side. Alone, neither hemisphere can roll; when joined to form a sphere, the whole can roll. Rolling is thus an emergent form of action completely determined by the individual separate properties of the parts and their arrangement. Obviously the whole formed by uniting the two hemispheres is, in a sense, 'greater than its parts' -- but it is just as obvious that this 'extra something' of the whole (its ability to roll) is not to be explained by the supervention of a 'principle of order' or 'entelechy.' There is no 'transcendence' of the natures of the parts nor of the laws governing their behavior." (p. 22)

Life, consciousness and rationality can thus be explained as "emergent" properties, completely determined by the individual separate properties of the parts and their arrangement. Life exhibits principles of action that differ from those governing inanimate matter; sentient life exhibits principles of action that differ from those governing plant life; and man exhibits principles of action that differ from those governing the lower animals.
Consciousness can only fall into one of the following categories:

1) It is matter in motion bound to follow the laws of nature.
2) It is not matter in motion, yet it is bound to follow the laws of nature.
3) It is matter in motion and independent of the laws of nature.
4) It is not matter in motion and independent of the laws of nature.

So, which one is it?
It is matter in motion (i.e., material organisms) that are bound to follow the laws of nature (i.e., to act according to their nature as conscious organisms).
"Faculty" can mean a power or ability acquired or innate. Which do you mean in the above?
Obviously, we are born conscious, so, in that sense, it is an innate ability.

- Bill


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