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Post 80

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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“When God commits a good action, this is owing to his nature insofar as it participates in the perfections of Dog”

Hallelujah!
So I understand by this sarcasm that you admit your objection does not stand?    

Post 81

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You had written, “An 18-month old human stares for a long time at magic tricks (where some part of "existence" vanishes), dogs don't though. If you put 2 balls behind a screen for instance, and then pull back only one (the 2nd "appeared" to vanish), dogs don't bat an eye -- they just want you to throw them the one ball you have left.”

I wrote, “I just tried it. She ignored the one remaining thrown ball, opting instead to walk around the obstruction and pick up the missing one, which she walked off with.”

You then wrote, “Jon L., if you're willing, then please start a new thread where I can ask you some things (without hijacking this one) about how you conducted your "case study."”


Ask away. I conducted it just as you described.

I’ve conducted it several times again, and it appears Bella has a favored ball. When I switched which one “disappears,” she grabbed the one remaining out of my hand and walked off with it. When I switch back again, she walks around the visual obstruction and takes her ball. It’s clear to me that she is not fooled into believing that the ball left behind the obstruction has vanished from existence—she knows it was left back there.

I suggest that studies that contradict my results are probably done with dogs that enjoy fetching. I don’t doubt that most dogs would ignore the missing ball—appearing to believe it has vanished from existence—focusing on the remaining ball and wishing to play fetch with it. Bella doesn’t fetch. If you throw something she does nothing unless she wants the item, in which case she will go get it and sit down to chew on it. This is because she is a pointer (a Vizsla) and has been selectively bred for pointing behavior and olfactory aptitude (her lineage is documented and includes trial champion parents, grandparents, great grandparents, great-great grandparents and great-great-great grandparents. And she cost a lot.) She could be trained to fetch, but I haven’t done so and she shows no natural inclination toward it. I would venture to guess that university studies utilize mutts, who generally have a strong instinct for fetching. These subjects would tend to ignore “vanished” balls and put their focus on the remaining one in an interest to play. I am not convinced this means they believe the missing ball has vanished from existence. Also, I’ll bet university studies use shelter dogs, which is kind of like studying human rationality using inmates.

I have seen other behavior in her that discredits your claim. Many times she has located and locked-up on point to a bird that subsequently took to flight. She sees it jump and fly, she stays motionless (“on point”) and she tracks its flight as it goes behind a solid such as a hill or a barn. Her glance (her head) continues to move at the rate the bird was going before it disappeared. And her estimate is pretty good, too, because her head jerks only slightly to get back onto the target when the bird emerges at the other side.

Now, you could say that she has learned these things, but don’t we assume that 18-month old babies pass the test because they too have learned the durability of objects—learned that they don’t vanish from existence when they vanish from view?


Post 82

Tuesday, April 3, 2007 - 11:23pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

There is something in the philosophy of science called a "crucial experiment." It is, according to the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy: "a means of deciding between rival theories that, providing parallel explanations of large classes of phenomena, come to be placed at issue by a single fact." An example of a crucial experiment would be: "Galileo's discovery of the phases of Venus (Ptolemaic [geocentric] versus Copernican [heliocentric] astronomy) ..."

With regard to dog epistemology, I'd say that we're not -- with the evidence you've heretofore marshalled -- there yet. Your argument, plainly stated, can be reduced to the proposition that, for dogs (at least, for your dog), out-of-sight doesn't mean out-of-mind. What this says unquestionably, is either that dogs can remember (which is, itself, uncontroversial), or that dogs are using perception other than sight, in order to pick-up the existence of an existent in existence. I'm looking for more than that. In attempting to show more than that, your experiments have fell shy of a "crucial experiment" criterion.

For instance, one of the potential confounders in moving from your evidence to your theory is that your dog has champion "olfactory aptitude." This brings up the very real possibility that your dog can smell the ball, even when it is behind an obstacle. The smell then, would be a perception of its continuing existence (behind that obstacle). In this somewhat far-fetched (but not entirely improbable!) case, even the dictum against "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" isn't proven -- though there are other ways to prove that dogs have memory, so this last statement is really inconsequential to our debate (and merely meant to illuminate the scope of what can be inferred from what it is that has been perceived).

Perhaps you might try other parameters in the same experiment -- in order to de-skepticize me -- such as making balls "appear" (instead of making them disappear). If you have a snack in hand, and you close your hand, and then open it without the snack there anymore -- the dog still smells your empty hand; but that is not evidence of the wonderment of a perceived interruption in "existence." It could be that the dog is trying to smell "where it went." It could be that the dog is smelling the "residue" of the snack that used to be in your hand (before you -- via slight-of-hand -- made it "disappear").

As for the birds and the clouds, I'm pretty sure that all predatory animals track prey similarly (whether behind trees, bushes, clouds, or whatnot). I don't take "tracking" to be evidence of an animal understanding what "existence exists" means. In fact, on America's Funniest Videos, I saw a dog bark at itself in the mirror, run behind the mirror to "confront" itself, run back out to where it initially "saw" itself, only to run back behind the mirror to find the "disappearance" of itself -- more than half a dozen times in a row. Talk about an ignorance of the axioms! That dog was no Objectivist, that's for sure (an Objectivist dog would have behaved much differently than that) ...

;-)

Anyway, perhaps in less than a half-dozen exchanges such as this one -- we will come to understand each other's epistemology adequately; so that we can be in a position to judge each other's level of employed rationality on this matter ...

;-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/03, 11:32pm)


Post 83

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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http://characters.media.mit.edu/video/persistence_320x240.mov

The M.I.T. group who created the animation says it is based upon “observed behavior of animals such as dogs”


Post 84

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=4812797

“Gagnon and Doré (1992) showed that domestic dogs are able to solve a Piagetian object permanence task called the invisible displacement problem. A toy is hidden in a container which is moved behind a screen where the toy is removed and left.”


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7924252&dopt=Abstract

“Visual accommodation and object permanence tests were administered to 70 puppies (Canis familiaris), aged 4 weeks to 9 months. The results showed that understanding of visible displacement problems emerged at the 5th weeks and developed rapidly until the 8th week. […] The results on invisible displacement tests suggest that understanding of invisible displacement problems appears around the 1st year in dogs' development.”


www.petalk.org/Part%202%20socdev.doc

“My final example is object permanence. All three populations [humans, chimps and dogs] develop object permanence in the same developmental order. First they see an object but cannot understand where it has gone when it is hidden, then they learn to understand that it is still there even though they cannot see it. This doesn't seem very difficult for me to understand that all dogs (and cats) seem to have object permanence, they are predators. It would be pretty silly if hunters could not understand that if a prey were running very fast in one direction and passes behind a boulder that it didn't actually disappear. Object permanence helps dogs know about their environment and others, and object permanence helps dogs understand the meaning of cues.”




Interesting site about doing your own tests:
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentoring/project_ideas/MamBio_p012.shtml?from=Home


Post 85

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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And your claim was NOT that dogs are “ignoran[t] of the axioms,” but rather that “If you put 2 balls behind a screen for instance, and then pull back only one (the 2nd "appeared" to vanish), dogs don't bat an eye”

Science has established conclusively that dogs pass the test you suggested and even pass more advanced object persistence tests. (Tests that remove olfactory cues have also been conducted and show the same thing. I’ll post those if you are interested.)

Your claim is FALSE.


Post 86

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

You are a formidable, intellectual opponent. And you really seem to have done your homework on this issue. I like your spunk. You've got -- as A. Powers says -- the "Mo-Jo." I predict that I will enjoy "finishing" this debate with you. My only reservation is that our argumentation is hijacking this thread (as it has very little to do with the question of Objectivism v. Atheism).

What do you say that the 2 of us (and any stragglers) get together and create a thread based on the reasonable inferences that ought to be drawn from the evidence that you've marshalled (in post 83 and 84)?

Ed


Post 87

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

By all means, start a new thread. You don’t need my assent to do that.

If you are seeking my agreement to participate in that thread, I can’t give that.

If you will argue that dogs’ ability to pass advanced persistence of objects tests doesn’t prove that they grasp “the axioms,” then I will not participate since I agree with that.

If you will argue that dogs pass persistence of objects tests because they learn through mere rote memory that objects persist when absent from perception (but they don’t “get” it), then I will expect you to simultaneously prove, with research cites, that 18-month old babies pass those same tests because they “really get it”, as opposed to having learned it in the last 18 months (whatever that would mean.)

Either way, an admission, here on this thread, that it is false that “If you put 2 balls behind a screen for instance, and then pull back only one (the 2nd "appeared" to vanish), dogs don't bat an eye” would be nice.


Post 88

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Either way, an admission, here on this thread, that it is false that “If you put 2 balls behind a screen for instance, and then pull back only one (the 2nd "appeared" to vanish), dogs don't bat an eye” would be nice.

Jon, you are really asking for a lot here, man. I mean, do you have any idea of how much character that that would take -- to admit of 'wrong-propositioning' on a DISSENT THREAD? Sheesh!

;-)

Though you seem to be, I'm not sure I'm wrong yet (I'll need to think more).

Ed


Post 89

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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“Anyway, perhaps in less than a half-dozen exchanges such as this one -- we will come to understand each other's epistemology adequately; so that we can be in a position to judge each other's level of employed rationality on this matter ...”

Indeed.


Post 90

Wednesday, April 4, 2007 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

You're mean.

Ed


Post 91

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 4:53pmSanction this postReply
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First you question my rationality, and then you call me “mean.”

Is it OK for you to make snide comments questioning my employed rationality, but mean for me to remind you about those comments? Wow!

Several snide remarks pertaining to your employed justice come to mind, but I wouldn’t want to be mean.


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Post 92

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 8:42pmSanction this postReply
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In response to the first post by Brady here, just for the record - and this doesn't mean that I'm a Christian or have any belief in Gods or Goddesses (well, on that count.. there are definitely Goddesses , e.g., a certain Erica - just not with any supernatural powers...  I think...) - any more than my post that I have no inherent objection to non-coercive man-boy love makes me a pedophile - but, as I was writing...

For the record, I know and have known a number of Christians who were great fans of "Atlas Shrugged," which amazed and continues to amaze me.  Rand explicitly posed her philosophy as a denial of and replacment for the whole Judeo-Christian ethos.  Somehow that got past them.

That said, some of the Christians I have met over the years display a very high regard for rationality and do not consider their religious beliefs to be founded upon unsupported "faith."  Christendom has a long and powerful intellectual tradition, deriving mostly I think from the neo-Aristoteleans of the high middle ages - despite the lack of evidence for it in the mass media evangelical circuit or the typical pulpit. 

I have several times discussed here the fact that we really don't know, in any absolute sense, that we are not in some dream, hallucination or epistemology machine, including one created by a self-styled "God."  In a dream, we "remember" things that never happened, as part of the internally generated reality.  So, also, in an epistemology machine we could be recalling with great certainty that we clearly proved "A" to be true, when in fact the machine was just turned on a moment before. 

This is something we do all the time in dreams.  We awaken with the thought that we just discovered a profound truth of the universe, but in the morning when we read our scrawled note to self, it is something like (as a friend of mine found next to his bed) "Man is something else...."

Since I know of no way around this problem other than decision theory, I will stick with that.  Decision theory involves the weighting of conclusions according to outcomes.  Even though one conclusion might be more likely than another, we may rationally choose to go with the less likely on the basis of the projected consequences.  For example, perhaps 99% of the time, a man approaching our car in a dark alleyway is looking for directions, spare change, etc. 

However, if we are a 110 pound female unversed in martial arts, we lock the doors anyway, because that 1% has much weightier consequences.  Pascal's wager, discussed by me elsewhere here, is an explicit use of what became decision theory, although his wager fails for reasons I cite.  The bottom line is that you should assume that you are awake and in a "real" reality until evidence shows otherwise and provides something to do about it.

However, there are other problems with Objectivism and a belief in a diety.  Objectivism stipulates and provides good reason to conclude that the primary value to each individual is his own life, objectively speaking, and should be subjectively chosen by each individual as such.  This is not consistent with the idea that we should live for another, whether God or our neighbors. 

In fact, selfishness on the most basic level is indistinguishable from intentionality.  We act to gain and or keep things that we value.  Operationally speaking, a value is that which we act to gain and/or keep.  How could we choose to act against our own values?  If we choose to take an action - a purposeful* motion (*intended to achieve a goal) - then for us, subjectively, that IS our value. 

Because operational values are a matter of choice, resting upon knowledge of consequences and a hierarchy of preceding evaluations, however, there is the possibility of error.  Just because we chose to make something a value - something to be sought after - does not mean that it was a correct decision.

For example, if the value we just chose is inherently impossible to attain, then all our effort will be wasted.

Or, if the value chosen contradicts other values we already are in pursuit of which are actually more important, then attaining that value will actually be a net dis-value, by our own standards.

Thus, consistency and possibility are at least two parameters by which we can judge prospective values.  Already this severely limits the field of candidate.

Another criteria is that if you are no longer alive, then no values are possible to you, as "you" no longer exist.  Thus, a "value" that inevitably kills you is not a good candidate. 

In fact, if you think of yourself as a value-driven system, with an inherent desire to maximize the number and quality of values achieved, then it follows that only by chosing values that enhance your survival and general capacity to act as a particular kind of being with a particular identity - "human," will you most fully satisfy that inherent desire.  Attempting to act in contradiction to your nature or beyond your inherent capacities simply falls into the category already discussed of values either inherently impossible to achieve or values that contradict each other, including more important values.

More later...


Post 93

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 10:15pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, you're incorrigible.

By the way, in the same semantic vein with which you have been badgering me, you haven't even remotely shown that dogs actually do "bat an eye" during magic tricks. So busy knocking me down, that you'd forgotten to take the responsibility to build up an actual, persuasive argument?

So there!

Hmf!

Ed



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Post 94

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 10:25pmSanction this postReply
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What?

Post 95

Thursday, April 5, 2007 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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I said:

Jon, you're incorrigible.

By the way, in the same semantic vein with which you have been badgering me, you haven't even remotely shown that dogs actually do "bat an eye" during magic tricks. So busy knocking me down, that you'd forgotten to take the responsibility to build up an actual, persuasive argument?

So there!

Hmf!

Ed
Get it now?

[I suppose that I could repeat myself (again), but honestly, what good would THAT do?]

;-)


Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/05, 11:40pm)


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Post 96

Friday, April 6, 2007 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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What semantics? Did you not mean to say that dogs lack object persistence? Did I not show that that is false? I’m confused.

Post 97

Friday, April 6, 2007 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

I explained myself thoroughly in post 82, where I brought up the kinds of things that ought to be inferred from the kinds of things that have been perceived with experiments with canines.

Your first link -- by the way -- is a computer program, a computer program "depicted" as a dog. That's not proof of anything. The "depicted" dog shows evidence of "tracking" the sheep -- but that says nothing about real dogs. The computer program probably has an action-command for the dog to assume spatiotemporal permance in objects as a default. But where is the assumption to be allocated? In the depicted "computerized" dog, or in the human programmer?

Haven't check your other links yet, just know that your first link stinks.

Ed


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Post 98

Friday, April 6, 2007 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
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By all means, check the other links. And research it yourself. And do get back to me. If you find credible research proving dogs are incapable of object persistence, I will be very interested in seeing it.

Post 99

Friday, April 6, 2007 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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http://www.alexfoundation.org/papers/JCP_Mirror.pdf


“Differences in ontogenetic progress and behavioral
milestones.

If Griffin is not atypical, grey parrots progress
differently from mammals. Great apes generally reach the
earliest stages more rapidly than humans (e.g., Stage 3 by
about 4 months), plateau temporarily at Stage 5, and reach
Stage 6 about the same time as humans (Mathieu &
Bergeron, 1981; Redshaw, 1978; see Gagnon & Dort,
1994). Monkeys develop more quickly than apes but slow as
tasks increase in difficulty and fail to reach Stage 6 (de
Blois & Novak, 1994; Poti, 1989; Spinozzi, 1989; see
Gagnon & Dor£, 1994). Cats and dogs develop more rapidly
still, reaching Stage 5 in a 4-week period ending at 7-8
weeks (Dumas & Dore, 1989; Gagnon & Dore, 1994). Cats
develop no further; dogs master standard invisible displace-
ments after several additional months (Gagnon & Dor6,
1994) but fail Task S (Dorf et al., 1996).”


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