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Post 220

Monday, January 22, 2007 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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     Ignoring  the traditional 'basics' as a requirement/expectation, methinks is a big-mistahk. They have intellectual as well as physical needs which, if not met early enough, their lack of feeling-like (aka  'interests') nwst, leave them short-changed later. Counting on their playing 'catch-up' later: not good. --- Not all parents can 'teach' the 3 R's past a limited territory. Teachers, even in a lousy system, are a necessity to avoid short-changing their potential students (aka: one's own unlearning kids)...by not even having them.

LLAP
J:D


Post 221

Monday, January 22, 2007 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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Who is to decide what parents are "qualified" and what parents are not "qualified"?

And if parents are not be trusted with education, then can they be trusted with anything else?


Post 222

Monday, January 22, 2007 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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John,
As far as I know, every teenage kids would looove to "unschool". Fortunately, whether they like it or not doesn't really matters. ;-)


Post 223

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 8:18amSanction this postReply
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As Wesley has clearly shown, he does understand the value of a good teacher. After all, he has taken classes from Mona Lee at her studio here in Austin.

The big difference is that people like Mona Lee and Van Brooks get their students and money on a voluntary basis. Mona and Van's students are also their customers. The students (like myself) pay for their classes. If we don't like their classes, we can go to another studio and take classes from someone else. The relationship is voluntary.

One big problem with most schooling is that it is often paid for by a third party. I have had similar experiences with IT trainings that were paid for by employers. The employers weren't the students, so they couldn't monitor the quality of the classes. Because the students weren't actually paying for it, they were less likely to demand quality teaching. As a result, a lot of IT trainings have been pretty poor (at least the ones I've seen).


Post 224

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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One big problem with most schooling is that it is often paid for by a third party.... The [payers] weren't the students, so they couldn't monitor the quality of the classes. Because the students weren't actually paying for it, they were less likely to demand quality teaching.

Very well said - and the crux of the bain of public education.....  of course, it often is claimed that the ignorance of the students makes it unlikely that they'd be able to know whether there was quality or not, or that their age precludes their ability to so do - both very falacious claims, but ones which need be dealt with....


Post 225

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 2:14pmSanction this postReply
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Third parties ARE a big problem.

Look at the teachers unions or medical insurance or HMOs as examples of third parties.

There is a kind of simple geometry here - "Structural malignancy will exist in proportion to the power acquired by a third party as multiplied by the distance of its interests from the proper purpose of the original parties" One of Wolfer's laws :-)

Post 226

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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“However, it seems that everything re 'education' in this thread shows that way too many are willing to leave merely up to the children's 'interest-of-the-moment' (aka wants/feelings) what, if and when (and, that's a big 'if' in most cases) they'll apply the mental effort needed to learn...well, anything. Sounds like a pretty Summerhill-ish 'progressive' anti-intellect attitude to me; worse than Dewey ever thought of doing.”

Well said, John. I was quite surprised by the support for unschooling in this thread. It sounds completely crazy to me—the perfect way to raise a Tarzan.


Post 227

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 2:38pmSanction this postReply
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Chris asks, "Who is to decide what parents are 'qualified' and what parents are not 'qualified'?"

My position is that anyone can make the judgement but no one has the right to enforce it - especially the government. But there is one exception to that: Child abuse or gross neglect.

This is an argument I've never heard an anarchist answer. If there were no Children's Protection Service - a government department, what would prevent children from being abused or neglected by their parents or guardians?

The police rarely get involved with children whose rights have been violated - unless called in by the parents. The law, and common sense, presumes a child is looked after by their parents, that the parent will handle what is needed, and will call in the police when the child is attacked or under threat by an outside force. But there is a department designed to act specifically, and only, when the parent is the violator - recognizing two things: Parents aren't always innocent of violating a child's rights, and that a child isn't always able to act in their own defense or even be able to request outside help.

So, if a parent is grossly irresponsible in the educational neglect of their child it is proper for a government agency to step in; and with the minimal amount of invasiveness correct the situation. I see no alternatives that would arise in a market place and no alternative to having a kind of 'big brother' in this area. Police need guns. A military needs weapons. Kids need to be protected from the malicious and the idiotic that would fail to give their children even the most basic of skills needed to survive.

I could tell you many horror stories of sweet little kids bewildered by the world they were born into (I worked at L. A. County Department of Children's Services for about five years while getting my therapist's license).
(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 1/23, 2:41pm)


Post 228

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
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>I was quite surprised by the support for unschooling in this thread. It sounds completely crazy to me—the perfect way to raise a Tarzan.

Yeah. The lack of understanding of human nature displayed by many Objectivists is quite shocking.

BTW, parents are third parties to their kids? Oh, please! 

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/23, 3:30pm)


Post 229

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Hong Zhang,

I must not have read carefully enough before jumping in with my post on third parties.

I was thinking of a teachers union, NOT of parents. In education both the parent and child are direct parties - never a third party!

(sometimes I get excited about a thought and post it a little too quickly)
(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 1/23, 4:06pm)


Post 230

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
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I was homeschooled after 7th grade. It was the best edcuational experience I could ever ask for. I plan to homeschool my kids someday, too.

Post 231

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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 Jon:

      I wouldn't short-shrift Tarzan, per se, since he had a bit more on the ball athlete- and intellect-wise than the average kid, and adoptive parents that clearly didn't wait for him to pay attention to necessities.  No 'third party' concerns there. --- Ntl, I get your point loud and clear; really, no argument.

      Down that exact line, I believe that there was something in the news this past week about a girl lost for 19 yrs found living in the jungle when she raided some nearby yard for food. But, she's definitely an 'unschooled' product. She gestures that she wishes to go back to what she's familiar with: the jungle.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 1/23, 8:20pm)


Post 232

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
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Erik:

     As I intimated: I think 'home-school'ing is great...for those who have the t-i-m-e (especially dealing with the govt's bureaucratic form-filling reqmts and monitoring), and the ability/skill (not to mention motivation for learning 'how') to do such.

      Not all parents/guardians have both. I'd suspect, for the whole class of 'parents', not even many, percentage-wise.

LLAP
J:D


Post 233

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 8:41pmSanction this postReply
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The use of Tarzan is almost funny - the 'real' Tarzan was not the Weismuller character, but indeed a homeschooled person who spoke several languages and was well educated [read the book, the original tale, by Edgar Rice Burroughs - Tarzan of the Apes]...

Post 234

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Addendum:

     Check out...

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6275623.stm

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1994805,00.html

...for a Cambodian 'unschooled' girl.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: Malcolm: thanx. I forgot that he wasn't an infant when...adopted. :)

(Edited by John Dailey on 1/23, 8:45pm)


Post 235

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 9:24pmSanction this postReply
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I certainly agree that parents shouldn't be legally compelled to insure that their kids attend a govt-licensed 'school.' I also agree that the Dewey system/style/philosophy lacks big-time. O-t-other h, I don't think it's wise for parents, should they be govtlly-allowed the choice, to 'wait' until their child acquires an 'interest' in learning how to read, divide, write or logic-solve, etc either. In effect, this allows 'dropouts' to drop out early on. And such are not attracted to who they'd then see as 'egghead/nerd/geeks;' they'd stay with their own peer group, interested in nothing beyond killing time, at best. Think about high-school dropouts...and where most ended up.


Wait just a minute... are you kidding me? Do you honestly think that children who don't attend school are more likely to stay with a clique and ignore "geeks" than kids in school? When kids are allowed to spend their time with all kinds of different people, adults and kids, rather than just those at the same "grade level" they will learn to be much more accepting. Kids join cliques and taunt "geeks" because that is the social structure they encounter in school.

As for the "interested in nothing beyond killing time, at best," I disagree strongly. Unschooled children have a surprising interest in learning and a thirst for knowledge that the school system kills. Also, let's not confuse high-school dropouts with unschooled children; high-school dropouts have already been crushed by the system while unschooled children have not been forced to experience it.

I am extremely shocked, not at the fact that you don't like the concept of unschooling (as most people who have been successfully brainwashed don't), but at the reasons why.

Post 236

Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 9:30pmSanction this postReply
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Addendum:

Check out...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6275623.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1994805,00.html

...for a Cambodian 'unschooled' girl.

LLAP
J:D


What a typical example of an unschooled child, as most children that do not attend school grew up in the wild without other human beings.

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Post 237

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 12:27amSanction this postReply
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I had considered writing a fake article about "Un-Parenting".  The philosophical reasons would all be the same as those for unschooling.  The children know what's best for themselves.  The parent shouldn't "force" or "coerce" the child.  Etc.  But it would apply to all things.   Like feeding them, clothing them, teaching them to speak, etc.  You'd just kind of throw them in the backyard and let them fend for themselves.  Trying to get them to eat the right food, or not fall off cliffs, or any other sane act of parenting would be thrown out as "vicious oppression".

I would take quotes like "People often say that our child will never want to learn the basics she needs for her life if we don't teach them to her. Who, when she wants to know things about the world, wouldn't want to read?" and rephrase them to be about providing food.  Who, after all, wouldn't want to acquire food if they were hungry?

My own analysis of the unschooling fallacy is simple.  It's a bad analogy with free-markets.  We argue against a top-down controlled economy and having it centrally planned.  Instead, we prefer the market mechanisms where people will act in their own interest and end up with better results.  Apply that to schooling.  Instead of trying to figure out how to make education interesting for your child, or go through the difficult job of trying to find the most essential knowledge and skills that your child will need in life, you just trust them to fend for themselves.  You don't plan...you just allow him to be free and he'll get the same results.

This is not a method of educating a child.  It's an abdication of the responsibility.  And the "UnParenting" idea is just taking it to the next step.  If you're going to abdicate your responsibility to educate your child, why not abdicate it all and leave it to "the free market" (a child wondering in the dark, with no clue and no support).

Unschooling is a complete denial of the idea that humans pass on information to their offspring.

Of course, even the unschoolers won't take their theory all the way.  While they personally won't educate their children, they'll allow the children access to educational material by other people.  But why?  If a child really wanted to figure out calculus, he'd invent it himself, right?  And isn't the educational books, by telling the child what to think, just as coercive?

Maybe there's some kernel of truth the unschoolers are latching on to.  For instance, it's plausible that children learn best when they're interested in something.  So instead of having a detailed inflexible pedagogical method, you would adjust it to take advantage of their natural curiosities.  This kind of position is not the slightest bit incompatible with actually educating your children, and in no way does it come close to justifying the "process" of leaving a child in a state of ignorance and making them fend for themselves.  I imagine the same is true for any other valid "reasons" for unschooling.

Finally, this quote was added back when this thread was "hot" the first time.  It's by Nathaniel Branden.
Overly "permissive" parents tend to produce highly anxious children. By this I mean parents who back away from any leadership role; who treat all family members as equal not only in dignity but also in knowledge and authority; and who strive to teach no values and uphold no standards for fear of "imposing" their "biases" on their children.


Post 238

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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But there is one exception to that: Child abuse or gross neglect.
How do you define this? Some people call it "child abuse" when parents refuse to allow vaccines that may have adverse side effects.

I know a guy who got a visit from some do-gooder because some teacher noticed that his daughter was able to hold it for a long time. She was in some nursery school and apparently didn't need to use the bathroom at bathroom time. The busybody teacher noticed this and made up her own assumptions.

These people do this kind of crap probably because they need to feel important. I also think that social workers bar some type of hostility toward the rest of society. These are people who spend six years of college or more in order to get jobs that often pay around $30,000.

There was a much worse story recently in Reader's Digest. It's here.
If there were no Children's Protection Service - a government department, what would prevent children from being abused or neglected by their parents or guardians?
What prevents them from being abused by the do-gooders?

What do you do when the cure is as bad as or worse than the disease?



Post 239

Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Do you honestly think that children who don't attend school are more likely to stay with a clique and ignore "geeks" than kids in school? When kids are allowed to spend their time with all kinds of different people, adults and kids, rather than just those at the same "grade level" they will learn to be much more accepting. Kids join cliques and taunt "geeks" because that is the social structure they encounter in school.
Most unschooled kids encounter many different kinds of people. From what I've heard, most unschooled teenagers can't stand their schooled peers. Grace Llewellyn said that they regard schooled ones as "immature" and "uninteresting."
Unschooled children have a surprising interest in learning and a thirst for knowledge that the school system kills.
College admission departments will admit to this.
I am extremely shocked, not at the fact that you don't like the concept of unschooling (as most people who have been successfully brainwashed don't), but at the reasons why.
Nothing in this bored could ever shock me.

 


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