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Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 3:08amSanction this postReply
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This is, in part, at least, the basis of Montesorri teaching - at least as Maria wrote of it......

Question - do you certifiably know anyone so learned, anyone who grew up this way?


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Post 1

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 4:28amSanction this postReply
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Tarzan.

Post 2

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 4:40amSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

I think this is amazing. How old did you say your child(ren) are?

We seriously need to think of a different word than unschooling. Unschooling might be ok for parents who do not care about learning or something like that. The life, freedom, and independence you are creating for your child is simply amazing. So come on, lets pull out our dictionaries and thesauri, and create a new term for this new method of raising children.

Unschooling sounds like you are demolishing the knowledge a person has gained through school. Maybe that is what they should call the course "Philosophy" in many institutions. What you are doing is not "un"-"schooling." Instead, you are creating for your child the best opportunity you can to assist them in freely preparing themselves for their future. Also, you are giving them the freedom (and property?) necessary for them to Live, at present!

Kelly, if your children ever need some help in calculus, differential equations, combinatorics, electromagnetics, electronic circuit analysis, or computer science/programming, please ask me. I don't have the time to teach everything, but if they/you stumble into a block or a have a question, maybe I could be of assistance.

Some people might argue that this method may work for the brightest children, but not the average or the less fortunate ones. "We Have to Force the average and less fortunate ones to learn the things they Need in order for them to be Successful." Does anyone agree with this statement? (No, I surely do not agree.)

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Post 3

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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I applaud what you are doing, but warn you to be careful in regard to the authorities.  The doyen of the education establishment and child services agencies can be vicious in protecting their prerogatives.  Make sure your daughter knows what to say to her peers.  Sounds like Nazi Germany doesn't it?

Post 4

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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Kelly, I am extremely intrigued by this method of teaching your child, and am very interested to see how things work out.  What an opportunity for her...

Robert, it's interesting that you bring up that point, because I was wondering the same thing myself.  Can't parents get in legal trouble for not giving their children some sort of formal "schooling?"  Or will this fall under homeschooling?


Post 5

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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Kelly,

Thank you for writing this article.  I'm glad to see you getting these ideas to the SOLO crowd.  You changed my mind quickly about the whole unschooling subject and I thank you for that.  Your answers to my questions and objections were well thought out and - of course - reasonable.  And based on facts, though I expect nothing less from you.  Thanks.

Jason


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Post 6

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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I have seen children who can cope with that kind of "teaching" approach, but I have seen in a multitude of fashions existences who gone broke by it.
So, it depends of the individuality of your child rather than a general assumption. I have been brought up in a traditional school and I can only say that I am (although I have some criticism of it) lucky to have done it. If you are seven years old, you just don't recognise that you have to do some things in life, although they are not only pure fun.

Some time was necessary, f.e., before I understood how much fun reading a book can be, because learning the basics is pure learning by heart rather than interacting.
I think bringing up your children by leading them, but always giving it the control over the direction is a good idea. It ensures that it gets a sense of responsibility, but at the same time learns that you have to meet requirements for yourself and the work you are doing. It's rather a mix between authority (because there always has to be one) and the 69ers approach of anti-authoritarian "playgrounds".


Post 7

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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I suppose this topic calls for the good ol'
I've never let my school interfere with my education.
~Mark Twain

So, Dean, in a way unschooling is trying to demolish what (average U.S. public) schools teach kids. I know that, with the exception of the hard sciences and maths, I've learned mountains more outside of school, especially high school (or secondary school or whatever you want to call it), than in it. School, for me, has just been a place to meet up with other people who want to have intellectual discussions (the type of discussions that should be going on in an ideal classroom, in the humanities at least). I've linked to this site before, but I'll do it again. A prime example of unschooling, if you ask me.

Post 8

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
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Max,
School did anything but guide me. In fact, when I was young and learned that being smart only made you "cool" when you'd help someone cheat on a test, I stopped doing things like reading books for fun. If school should turn into something but a social indoctrination tool, I'd agree with you.
Sarah

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Post 9

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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Tina and I were talking the other day about what seems to be in line with Kelly's unschooling concept. Although I have a lot of respect for a child-led education, this kind of thing wouldn't work for us. My kids are too damned lazy and I'm too disorganized and scatterbrained to be sure they would learn anything without school. My kids will always have their chances at independent study, but now they attend school. (5th & 9th grade)

I did, at one time, consider home schooling, but I always knew in the back of my mind I would be a single mom and homeschooling doesn't work well without a full time dedication to the child's education along with a supportive partner in the deal. I was married to an alcoholic and could not take on such a task.

I saw pretty close up a home-schooled family where the results were quite mixed. The girls were homeschooled and then were put into a public high school when Children and Family Services stepped in.  One was held back a year, the other got into one of the better schools in Chicago and the third was at grade level.  This family did the highly-structured program with regular testing and all that.

My kids are at two ends of the spectrum. Tina, who is considered gifted, would have fared very well with home schooling. Sean is a different challenge. He has an autistic spectrum disorder and would probably focus only on learning about one thing for his entire life. I also lean heavily on the special ed services provided by the public school system for him. May as well get some benefit from all that property tax I pay.


Post 10

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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Kat wrote:
The girls were homeschooled and then were put into a public high school when Children and Family Services stepped in. 
What brought Children and Family Services into the picture?


Post 11

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:23amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

This is sort of similar to Montessori, but Montessori doesn't give complete freedom. Teachers give lessons on different materials without being asked. Children aren't allowed to do literally whatever they want until they are finished. They have restrictions and (for instance) garden time has a definite end whether the child is finished or not.

No, I don't know anyone personally who was unschooled. But there are quite a few famous examples. Thomas Edison and Agatha Christie are two. I know of many children schooled this way who grow up to have useful occupations they say they love.

Kelly

Post 12

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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Dean, thank you for your kind words. My only child thus far is still very young, only 20 months, so I'll have more info about how this works out as she grows. I'm sure we will have need of people who know a wide variety of things as her interests bloom.

As for the word, I call it unschooling when I introduce it to people simply because many people are already familiar with this movement. I like the term freeschooling, but mostly I just think of it as life. Children living and doing, just like adults do.

Kelly



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Post 13

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:28amSanction this postReply
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Kelly, I think your article is based on the premise that formal education kills the spirit of independent learning in children.  This may be the case, but I don't think we have enough "data points" (of the unschooled) to tell for sure.  How many children are there who have grown up without any formal education, and how did they turn out?  (...I liked the "Tarzan" response, Stuart! ;-) )

We all recognize that infants learn at an astounding rate, without formal education.  Many children keep up the pace through age 4 or so, teaching themselves to read.  Is it school that puts the brakes on this progress, or is it the physiology of brain development?   We know that it's harder for adults to learn a language.  Is that because school sapped their enthusiasm, or because the adult brain is different?

Your child, if you stick with this approach, will at least be a data point.  We will see if she becomes a Nobel prize-winner, or if she's living in your basement when she's 35.

You imply that we shouldn't bother to learn anything that isn't interesting to us.  I guess you think that if something is useful, like mathematics, then of course the child will be interested enough to learn it.  I don't think this is true.  A small child simply isn't capable of deciding what is "important" to learn.  I think that unless you start with a very unusual child who is interested in everything, you will end up with a very uneven education:  a child who is a virtuoso pianist but cannot write, or a child who writes novels but cannot count.  Actually, in thinking about it, this would be kinda cool in a way!  Your approach may encourage excellence in the child's chosen area of interest, but still I think some "coercion" will be necessary to ensure that the child learns the fundamentals in areas that are not of particular interest to her.

One problem with this "don't study it if you don't care about it" idea is that you may end up with a kid who refuses to do anything she doesn't feel like doing.  Most people start out in jobs that are not our chosen profession.  It is important that the child recognize that there will be jobs she has to do during her life that she isn't crazy about.  Even in her chosen field, there will be aspects of her job that she doesn't care for.  But these things have to be done.  Learning stuff you don't care about will promote responsibility and discipline.  A good school should be able to do this without rendering the child comatose with boredom, however!

You give an example of a child who wants to be an astronaut, so she studies mathematics and physics.  This may be the case with some children, but oftentimes, we discover what we are interested in while we are learning the basics!  I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up, but by the end of junior high, I knew I liked math.  I started out majoring in accounting in college, but found that I enjoyed my computer classes much more, so switched to that area.  If I had been "unschooled" as a child, I probably would have spent all my time reading novels, and would not have discovered my aptitude or interest in mathematics.

My eight-year-old son is quite gifted, but if he were "unschooled", he would spend 14 hours a day in front of the computer playing the free games on wonka.com, pfgoldfish.com, etc., etc.  He wants to be a writer when he grows up.  But he needs encouragement to make that more than an idle desire, to actually DO some writing.  And, in order to have some CONTENT to write ABOUT, he needs to study other subjects.  Even he recognizes this.  We discussed this article, and when I asked him what he thought, he said, "I think she's crazy!"  An example he gave was, "Who's going to learn social studies without somebody making you learn it in school?"  He understands that it's important to learn about many different subjects, not only to make you a competent and well-informed adult, but to help you determine what you are truly interested in.

As Kat noted, every child is different, and some of us (like me and my son) are a bit too lazy to do well without formal education pushing us along.  My major complaint about my elementary education is that it was "learning in slow motion."  I enjoyed it, and did well, but I felt that the pace was too slow and I would have enjoyed being pushed harder. 


Post 14

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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As far as the legality, it is very easy to manipulate data in the few states that have stringent requirements for homeschooling. Many out west don't have any reporting at all. In Texas, you don't even have to tell the state you aren't sending them to school. But here in TN, I will probably have to falsify some testing and turn in attendance reports. (Yeah, they were here at home every single day.) I have no problem doing this.

As for what the kids tell people, we live in an area where this isn't a problem. There are other people here who openly unschool, homeschool, and anything else you can think of. But I guess parents might just want to tell kids to say they are homeschooled.

Kelly

Post 15

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
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And, in order to have some CONTENT to write ABOUT, he needs to study other subjects.  Even he recognizes this.

But isn't that the point, Laurie?   A child does not exist in an intellectual vacuum.  As children grow they're exposed to an amazing variety of subjects and when they feel the need to learn about a subject, they'll express interest in it, just as your child has realized there are things he needs to study in order to attain his ultimate goal.  The parents are then there to ensure the interest is fed.

Jason


Post 16

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Max, I disagree that this wouldn't work for any child. Children who might want more structure can ask for it. Children who aren't interested in academic subjects at all at 7 years old can wait till they are interested. (In my experience, boys are interested in reading later than girls. Perhaps the reason they don't want to sit down and learn it is that they aren't ready yet?) Children who want to learn letters and numbers and even reading at 3, can do it. This is the only approach that would work for any child because it is based solely on the child's interests and readiness.


Kelly

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Post 17

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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What brought Children and Family Services into the picture?
It wasn't the homeschooling. This was a very Christian family (as many homeschoolers are) and the father ruled with an iron fist.  After leaving marks on the wife's neck, she finally took the girls and went to a woman's shelter. DCFS got involved and put the girls in school. The whole episode was a complete shock on our block, as they seemed to be a very tight family. They went through some counseling and eventually got back together and seem to be doing okay now as far as I can tell. I haven't seen them since last summer though.  The oldest girl had a baby was not thrown out on the streets, so I think things are better.


Post 18

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Kat, I think this is exactly the method a child with some sort of issue (either autism, or behavior issues, or ADD if it exists) needs. Those children in particular are not on the same timetable that other children are on. They may be the ones whose interests and readiness are passed over in a typical school setting. Also, what's wrong with only studying one thing your whole life? (Not that I think that is very likely, but why would it be wrong?)

Kelly

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Post 19

Wednesday, May 4, 2005 - 10:15amSanction this postReply
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Kat, I think this is exactly the method a child with some sort of issue (either autism, or behavior issues, or ADD if it exists) needs.

Kelly, are you saying that kids with those types of issues need less structure? I've always been told the opposite, although I realize that the Montessori method was originally intended for such kids. So the message is a bit mixed.

I think that one-on-one homeschooling would be the ideal for Sean, but only if I could hire someone to work with him full-time and provide an abundance of resources. I'm a single mother and gotta work for a living so my lifestyle, despite how glamourous it may seem, is certainly not conducive to homeschooling.

If I were to completely leave him to his own devices (unschooling) he would most certainly be driven to work tirelessly towards his real life long-term career goal of becoming a video game tester (but only for E-rated games) . So off to school he goes.

btw, just curious, is Mothering magazine still around?



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