Laure,
I hope you don’t mind too much but I’m going to “take apart” your post.
“There are some fundamental disagreements. One is "You don't know what you don't know." Other side says, "Sure you do." One is "Children are not little adults." Other side says, "Sure they are."
For the record I’ve never said you know what you don’t know. That does not make sense. I said that for the most part what a child needs to know at any given time is for him to determine (He is not in an empty room his whole life, he sees things around in his many experiences of interacting with the world, including people).
I also never said a child is a little adult. If you meant to imply that by given him many opportunities to choose his values in his life I am treating him like a little adult, that might make more sense, but I would say that I am treating him like a person.
”One point I'd like to make, though, is that what I do is not "forcing" my son to learn.”
To the extent that you are choosing to send him to a school you are forcing him to learn, when you deem it appropriate.
“If there's a way to do that, please let me know. I cannot tell him, "learn this or I will blow your brains out."
Do you think that only if it gets to the extreme of that statement then we are in the realm of force?
“And, since I don't believe in corporal punishment, I don't tell him, "do your homework or I will spank you." Even this last would leave him a choice; he could always say "I'll take the spanking."”
I think you should really reexamine the last part of this statement. Are you saying there is a real choice when one of the options for the child is possibility of being spanked?
“So I think the argument against coercion is a bit spurious. In reality, we are not forcing our children to go to school. If I were in a position where I had to physically drag my son to school, of course I wouldn't do it. I would take it as an indication that there was something terribly wrong at the school, and would remedy the situation.”
To address this part of your argument I would need to find out whether or not you accept the premise that there is a continuum as far as what constitutes force. It seems like your definition, at least in regards to children might mainly (or only include) the range from spanking to “I’ll blow your brains out.”
So, rather than forcing or coercing, what I am arguing for is persuading, encouraging, bribing, etc.
I find it revealing that you include bribing with persuasion and encouragement.
And I don't see anything wrong with that. In reading Kelly's posts, I sometimes have a twinge of an emotion I am not sure how to characterize; a combination of guilt, regret, and inferiority. "Why doesn't my son act like a little adult? Am I a bad mommy?" Why, I can't even get him to do the dishes without paying him!
“But on the other hand, if he doesn't want to do the dishes, I guess I shouldn't be "forcing" him? Where do you draw the line?”
That is a good question.
This idea that a child should never be made to do what he doesn't want to do -- it comes up at least a couple of times a week. Let's say I want to go shopping, my husband is out of town, my son doesn't want to come with me, but I don't want to leave him home. Yes, I "force" him to come with me. What should I do, sacrifice my interests to his? "No conflict of interest among rational men..." ... could it be that my child cannot be treated as a "rational man" yet? Because I don't think my desire to go shopping is irrational. I don't see how you can raise a child with the permissive attitude that he can do whatever he wants, without completely sacrificing yourself. "While he's in my house," things will be done my way.
Laure in this paragraph you raise a very good point: how do you balance your values with your child’s without being altruistic?
Like Phil, I strongly object to the idea that you can just "pick up" whatever learning you are deficient in, whenever you determine that you need to. If it's just learning a set of facts, sure you can pick it up. But if it is a field of study, it is built upon a skill set and a knowledge base that may be very hard to fill in on your own.
I think you actually answered part of your objection by partially describing the learning process. I’d like to hear what subject/ field of study a child cannot eventually learn by picking up the initial facts that their intellectual context can handle. No one is denying that a child learns things in stages. If a child develops some interest on their own in any academic subject can’t they be given books that are appropriate to their current intellectual understanding.
”Another point (that a professional educator would be much better in arguing than I) is the concept of "readiness". As I understand it, children develop according to a kind of timetable which differs in specific age, but is similar in structure for all children. There is a time at which a child is ready to learn to speak, ready to learn to read, ready to learn to do math word problems, ready to learn algebra, etc. They can learn the skill later than this time, but their brains will have a harder time later. I think Kelly would argue that this "readiness" will correspond almost perfectly with the child's "interests". I don't think it's necessarily the case.”
I’m not sure Kelly would argue that a child’s interest necessarily correspond with this supposed “readiness” (even if this “readiness” were scientifically verifiable it would not change my response). I think it has been scientifically demonstrated that it is biologically healthier for a female to have children when they are somewhere around 18. Even if this is true I would not encourage/persuade my daughter to have children then. Her goals/values are for her to decide on her timetable
05092005b
”We old-fogie traditionalists believe that kids do not know what is best for them in all cases.”
Speaking for myself, I don’t believe kids know what is best for themselves in ALL cases.
“I don't think that ANYONE on this board would think it was right to dissuade a child from pursuing whatever productive interest he developed! Quite the contrary.”
In your opinion what is a permissible productive endeavor for a young child (3-10 yrs of age) to pursue (I specifically say pursue because I want to differentiate from developed as that might have initially resulted from parental interference).
”I think that children need a push to get them going, even when they have stated that they have a particular interest. Let's take summertime for schoolchildren as an example. I currently telecommute, so in the past I have put Peter into summer programs so that I can work without being bothered. At his age now, I wouldn't really need to do that; he can entertain himself.”
If he can truly entertain himself without affecting you pursuing your goals what is wrong with him choosing to hang out at home.
“However, I still feel that more structure can help him to make better use of his time in the summer.”
Why can’t he decide what is a better use of his time?
“This year, I asked him, "What are you interested in learning this summer? Any special skills you'd like to pick up?" Kids have all this free time in the summer; I figure they should spend it focusing on what's important to them.”
You really don’t think if given the freedom your child would not decide to do something that he thought was worth his time or are you afraid he might choose something that you think should not be worth his time. It seems like from these statements that you feel like your child needs to be "learning" all the time. By your putting the question in a "learning context" you might actually be contradicting the last part of your senetence when you say he should spend his time on what is important to him.
Peter's answer: "I don't know." So I signed him up for a writing workshop and some tennis lessons (he's totally not a team-sports kind of guy, but I think it would be good for him to learn a "lifetime sport" of some kind). Peter's reaction: "OK."
Do you think if Peter had to decide each day of the summer how to spend his day he would say, I don’t know? I have to say that I think part of this “I don’t know” problem is because he was told what to do so often (although I would assume it was a lot less than most children experience). If he had experienced from a very young age that he had to figure out a lot of what he wanted to do this would not happen. It is an interesting coincidence that soooooo many high school/ college graduates have the same response when asked what they want to do next in life. But is it really so surprising when you consider that since a young age they have been told what they should do, for how long and when (school from age 5-18) regardless of what they wanted to do.
”In a nutshell, I think that young children need some degree of artificial motivation, that they should be taught the things adults think are important, that they sometimes are naturally lazy.”
In all of my 12 years coaching I have not met one lazy child between the ages of 18 months and about 4 or 5 years old.
“It's a gradual process of increasing responsibility and freedom over the years. We need to provide an environment that eases the child into responsible, self-directed, self-motivated adulthood.”
I generally agree with this statement but it looks like we disagree about when this freedom and to what extent it should begin.
“Along the way, there will be artificial motivators. Babies do things to make mommy happy.”
I don’t want to encourage things that make my child’s primary motivation for doing something to be because they want to make me happy. I’m not saying that I don’t appreciate when my child does do something that makes me happy.
I hope that this approach to Laure’s post does not discourage anyone else from posting their thoughts on this subject.
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Hong, I don't really understand how someone can feel passionate about a subject and not want to discuss it. I would assume the more sacred you feel about something the more you would want interested parties to hear about it. I'm interested.
Aquinas
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