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Post 200

Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 9:58pmSanction this postReply
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"Jefferson read Plato and Epicurus in Greek. He read Cicero in Latin."

Most of the major classical works are available in bilingual editions of the LOEB CLASSICAL LIBRARY. The translations are generally excellent, having been done back when scholarship and meticulousness were valued in the humanities. Texts such as Paterson's God of the Machine, Julian Jaynes Origin of Consciousness, Will Durant's multi-volume world history, Marija Gimbutas' work on the Indo-european & Pre-Indo-European origins of ancient Europe, Robert Graves' The White Goddess, Harbage's the Meaning of Shakespeare, and so many other titles that it would take me days to collect them are things that I never came across in school, but found own my own, and found invaluable. On-line schooling in mathematics and the hard sciences will be unlikely to lead you down the wrong road. Any schooling, whether on-line or at a conventional school will likely be geared toward current fashions and getting you to purchase the texts of academic hacks with a monetary conflict of interest in their required reading.

Congrats on your first Atlas icon.

Ted


Post 201

Wednesday, October 11, 2006 - 11:23pmSanction this postReply
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Mark Twain warned us not to let school get in the way of a good education. My college students have taken some really stupid classes in topics that involve white, male, and West bashing. It's amazing how so many college courses have no regard for truth.

I am so glad that at some point in high school, I started relying more on books than on teachers. By reading various authors advocating different answers, I was able to apply rationality to the issues and sometimes reach truth and avoid brain-washing by some teachers. Reading Ayn Rand, by the way, saved me by supplying some desperately needed answers in philosophy -- especially ethics.

Reading on my own is one of the factors responsible for my deep and abiding love for mathematics. Since the sixth grade, I never let bad teachers ruin it for me. I read all sorts of math books outside of school and made that wonderful subject my hobby. Little did I know at the time how far that extra-curricular activity would take me.

Nevertheless, I still learned much in school, especially in the sciences.



Post 202

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15316912/

Check this article out. A grade school has banned tag.


Post 203

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 6:58pmSanction this postReply
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Kelly's children are so lucky. I would give anything to be unschooled.

The whole system of "school" simply doesn't work. It doesn't recognize that everyone is an individual and everyone is interested in and benefits most from learning different things. Learning from a set curriculum is a great way of wasting time memorizing boring facts that will never be of help to you.

Post 204

Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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Any schooling, whether on-line or at a conventional school will likely be geared toward current fashions and getting you to purchase the texts of academic hacks with a monetary conflict of interest in their required reading.


That's what school is, and why it's a shame that there aren't more unschoolers. In the United States, there are only 150,000 unschoolers. This may seem like a large number, but considering that there are 75 million American children under 18, unschooling is obviously not typical. It's too bad that so many people care more about their child learning from a set curriculum than learning what's really important.


I never came across in school, but found own my own, and found invaluable.


I love reading, but not school books. In sixth grade we read Life of Pi and I found it to be 348 pages of boring. You might find it interesting to know that I remember nothing of the content of the book, but I remember exactly that it was 348 pages long. This was because we had to read it over winter break, during which time I happened to be visiting my grandma in Virginia, and the whole time I was reading the book, all I could think about was the fun I was missing.

The funny thing is that when I find a good book on my own, I'll read for hours and hours and not be able to put it down! I find reading books by choice so great that I've even started my own book club.


Mark Twain warned us not to let school get in the way of a good education.


I've never heard that quote from Mark Twain, but I think he hit it right on the dot! A good education is not something achieved in school. It is something achieved in life.


Check this article out. A grade school has banned tag.


That is absolutely ridiculous. Next thing you know our government will be banning tag. As if it's not bad enough that they force children as young as three to sit still for seven hours a day, now they've taken away their right to play.

Post 205

Friday, October 27, 2006 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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Wesley,

Austin has a very active home-schooling community. I know there is a Yahoo group for it. You will also be pleased to know that much of it is quite like Austin. It's not a bunch of religious fanatics. You could get some support there. Maybe you could some resources with the alliance.

Have you made some friends in those classes with Mona Lee? You could share your frustrations with them.

Class with Mona Lee has been interesting lately. It appears that I am the only male.

I also had a very intense workshop over the weekend with Dan Fauci at Van Brooks's studio. Dan is from Los Angeles and a very cool guy. He developed a really cool workshop called The Mastery, which I took from Van last year. I took Creativity and Leadership, which is what you take after The Mastery.

It took out the whole weekend. I was there from 6:30pm to 1am on Friday, 10am to 1am on Saturday, and 10am to midnight on Sunday. I guess it was just like being on a set.

Dan mentioned to me that he is in a photograph in Passion of Ayn Rand. He is in the softball game photo. He met her back in New York in the 1960's and knew what was going on before the truth was revealed in the book.

I also discovered the best Mexican place in Austin so far--Nuevo Leon.


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Post 206

Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 3:43amSanction this postReply
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I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Mark Twain
US humorist, novelist, short story author, & wit (1835 - 1910)


Post 207

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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The only reason for schools is politics. Schools' real purpose now is to provide jobs for teachers, administrators, and the people in the "calendar committee."

School pays no attention to students' individuality (or at least that of those that still have any). Many of my teachers have started having us write our "Student Numbers" on our assignments instead of our names. I always include my name too because I am not a number. All students are now required to wear bar codes at my school! I cover mine with tape because I am not a mass-produced item in a catalog.

They want me to think I am a product, but they cannot force me to believe that. They want me to think school is important, but they cannot force me to believe that. They have brainwashed my friends, but over me they have no power. No wonder attendance in school is required! Homeschooling would be outlawed if not for the outrage it would cause.

Thank goodness for people like Kelly. I am hopeful that someday, school will appear to have been a very brief part of history... one of the worst glitches ever, but still one that did not last more than a few hundred years.

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Post 208

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 8:10amSanction this postReply
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The only reason for schools is politics. Schools' real purpose now is to provide jobs for teachers, administrators, and the people in the "calendar committee."
I think I understood back then, but never really wanted to admit it. I always understood just how unimportant the whole system is. Teachers don't like to face that reality.
School pays no attention to students' individuality (or at least that of those that still have any). Many of my teachers have started having us write our "Student Numbers" on our assignments instead of our names. I always include my name too because I am not a number. All students are now required to wear bar codes at my school! I cover mine with tape because I am not a mass-produced item in a catalog.
It was never this bad back in my days. We had "student numbers," but they were hardly used. It was mainly for scheduling, grades, etc. At least they aren't using Social Insecurity numbers. My guess is that they are going to go to some kind of RFID tags, so they can track students all around the schools and maybe everywhere else.

It's so nice to prepare kids to live as slaves. Is it any wonder that someone like Bush is in the White House now?
They want me to think I am a product, but they cannot force me to believe that. They want me to think school is important, but they cannot force me to believe that. They have brainwashed my friends, but over me they have no power.
It is much easier to force people to think things than you think it is. Having studied neuro-linguistic programming and hypnosis, I know that you can brainwash people. The key is that your victim will never know it. The people in the school system are quite skilled in manipulation.
I am hopeful that someday, school will appear to have been a very brief part of history... one of the worst glitches ever, but still one that did not last more than a few hundred years
It's dying already. The Internet is making it so easy to learn anything. I don't think anybody really believes that anyone learns anything in school anymore.


 


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Post 209

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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Bar code?  I never heard of that.  I would suggest you do 2 things:

1)  Sign only your name.  Never put your number down.  Ever.

2)  Do not wear the bar code.

If they ask about 1, you forgot it.  Even if it happens every time.

If they ask about 2, it must have become lost and fallen off.  Even if it happens every day.


Post 210

Monday, January 8, 2007 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
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My guess is that they are going to go to some kind of RFID tags, so they can track students all around the schools and maybe everywhere else.


That wouldn't surprise me! Many detention schools already do that.

It's dying already. The Internet is making it so easy to learn anything. I don't think anybody really believes that anyone learns anything in school anymore.


Thank goodness! The reason that some (brainwashed) people think school is so important is that in school, one of the main things "taught" is that attending school is the most important thing in the world. People have thrived without attending school for thousands of years.

1) Sign only your name. Never put your number down. Ever.

2) Do not wear the bar code.

If they ask about 1, you forgot it. Even if it happens every time.

If they ask about 2, it must have become lost and fallen off. Even if it happens every day.


Thank you! Since reading your post I have been doing both of those things and it has worked well for me.

Post 211

Monday, January 8, 2007 - 6:23pmSanction this postReply
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Read this book now--Grace Llewellyn's Teenage Liberation Handbook. Unschooling laws in Texas are actually better than most states.

I somehow missed this post originally. Thank goodness I went back! I just looked into this book and can't wait to read it!

Post 212

Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 7:35pmSanction this postReply
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I was bored, so I thought I'd argue this post.

I wonder if many of the 'unschoolers' have ever had a truly great, transforming teacher in a traditional classroom and have viscerally experienced how much difference such a charismatic person can make in a young child's or adolescent's life.


I'm sure they have. The best teacher I've ever had was uncertified and never worked in a school, but still taught me so much outside of the classroom, even without the threat of grades.

There are many movies and stories that tell of this, from "To Sir With Love" to "Stand and Deliver". (And I can attest that it makes all the boredom worthwhile and unimportant.)


What's that? Fictional movies and stories say that school is good? Well, bring it on!

The schools are made intentionally boring. Someone who is tremendously bored is more likely to consume more as well as be economically predictable in the future.

The nature of learning and the need for guidance changes once you get past the 'Montessori level' of the physical, tactile, self-exploratory "reach out and touch it" and once you get very high into the realm beyond the physical and immediate.

The reason a good teacher and mastery of a core curriculum -- English, Math, Science, History -- is vital (as is finding good schools, which DO EXIST)


Most schools do not have good teachers and most students do not have "mastery" of the curriculum (if this really were "vital," almost everyone would be in a lot of trouble!).


is that you can't just "snap bang" pick up all the stuff you didn't find interesting years ago. It is often hierarchical and slow to learn requiring many problems and can't be crammed into weeks but takes trial and error, step by step. Hierarchy refers not only to the way we store knowledge. It refers to the way we do and logically must -learn- it. You can't pick up algebra if you never mastered fractions, long division, certain aspects of logic, pre-algebra, etc. You can't learn to substitute letters for numbers in equations until you have thoroughly mastered -every single one- of the operations of arithmetic. Advanced or formal science won't make much sense unless you mastered general science in elementary or middle school. It will just be floating abstractions without concretes. Modern political issues in America about religion, race, gender won't fully make sense unless you have not just memorized but understand the Protestant Reformation, Reconstruction, etc.


Why not? Why can't you wait until you find something interesting to learn it? Why not skip right to Algebra without knowing long division? Why do you think political issues won't make sense to someone who isn't a history expert?


There is no free lunch.

And there ain't no f**king shortcuts.


It is the responsibility of a parent to provide a child with lunch (and anything else he/she may need).

Shortcuts to what? Shortcuts to being brainwashed?


The only reason 'unschooler'parents or 'progressive education' intellectuals pooh-pooh or underestimate the process involved is they don't remember the fact they had to learn it in traditional schools. They don't remember the time and gradual brain-stretching over years that it took.


I think it is because they remember it so well that they decide to unschool. They remember wasting hours and hours of their life with schoolwork, longing to do things they much more enjoyed, but being forced and manipulated into learning what someone else thought was "important" and now do not want to force that upon their own kids.

Additionally, many unschooling parents were unschooled themselves.


You need all four elements of the core curriculum. And they are both cumulative and interrelated.

You can't skip the Math in grade school or later because you need it to fully understand the Science. You can't skip the Science because you need it to assess what you might like to do, to understand a complex technological world, and you need the scientific method to learn how to think logically, without which -nothing else- is possible. You can't skip the English or let it slide for years at a time - including the grammar, the vocabulary, and the literature - because you can't think, communicate, understand yourself without them. You can't skip the History (and geography) because then you don't even recognize the planet you live in.


You're wrong. You can skip all of these things. If you need to know them for something else you're interested in, you will be able to recognize that and learn them then.


You won't be a good writer or a clear thinker in polished, well-honed English unless you know how to concretize, to give vivid examples, to make apt comparisons, choose metaphors, etc. And you won't know how to do that unless you have read great literature or great poets or skilled essayists.


If someone is interested in reading and writing, they will want to read all on their own. It is wrong to make everyone read what only a few kids want to. Also, if you can choose your own book and read it just for leisure without having to prove it to anyone, chances are you will enjoy reading much more than if you were forced to read.

Besides, not everyone cares about being a good writer.

How would you like it if you were watching a movie and every five minutes someone stopped it and asked you to describe what was happening? It would be pretty hard to get into the movie, but you have to get credit for watching!


You won't be able to converse with well-educated people or write for an intellectual audience or persuade anyone with an education about Objectivism or your proposal for your local school or the direction of the country or your town unless you know something about our culture and western civilization other than Ayn Rand and can draw on its examples.


What do you mean by "well-educated?" Do you think going to school makes you "well-educated?" I think few people really are educated, and the ones who really became educated by avoiding school will be far ahead of those who wasted their childhood in a classroom.


It's not just about whether kids are naturally lazy or naturally curious and try to seek out knowledge of value.

The reason you need a teacher to (gently, inspirationally) guide your children through this material is that it is too vast and the good stuff too hidden to think you will stumble on it via library search or internet googling. And you don't know what you don't know. Nor do you know when knowledge is floating or out of context or requires a base.

You'll never get a fraction of what you need in order to be well-rounded without guidance.


"What you need?" Who's to say what you need? The government (public schools)? A business (private schools)? Besides, few teachers "gently, inspirationally guide" children. Almost all of them use grades as motivation to do work. And if forced to learn "stuff" children won't find it "good" at all. The things learned in school are tedious and boring.


Nor can any one parent be as much of an expert, as can a
professional who has taught world or American history or science or algebra over and over and has learned what works. (Do I need to mention again that I mean a GOOD professional.) Parents, themselves not always well-rounded Renaissance people, are just as likely to mis-guide the child as not.


Not just one parent has to teach the child everything. Parents can arrange meetings for the child with experts about what the child is truly interested in at the time. The good professionals are not teachers. They are mathematicians, historians, etc. They have actual jobs in their field of choice.



And having read all of Ayn Rand, a touch of Mises, and a dab of Aristotle doesn't make you qualified to discuss the water cycle, organic chemistry, or to compare Chinese civilization with western. It is the height of hubris to think otherwise. Something, unfortunately, Objectivist and libertarians are seldom short of.


If you are not interested in the water cycle, organic chemistry, or comparing Chinese civilization with Western, why would you want to discuss it anyway?


And being well-rounded -is- vital to being as successful, and even as intelligent as you can be. (Genius and intelligence grow out of vast knowledge.) While there may be exceptions to this, people who need to do nothing but pursue one thing for a lifetime or huge sections of one, they are the exception not the norm.


Being well-rounded is hardly vital to being successful at anything! If you're a writer or historian, you need not know math. If you're a technician, you do not need to understand the water cycle. And I think that people who are mainly interested in one thing ARE the norm! Why is it that most people have a "thing?" What about a "favorite subject?" And a "special talent?"


Once you've had a good, well-rounded 'classical' liberal arts education you can look back and see how many decades it took to acquire it and how much power and satisfaction and perspective it gives you in everything you do, in the level of pleasures you can have, far beyond the television set or the technician who wouldn't know Tennyson from a tsetse fly. (sorry about the triple alliteration.)

Don't let yourself remain a philistine, if you are or refrain from giving your children the guidance that will let them remain narrow specialists who, if they are 'creative' types, don't deeply and thoroughly understand science and the vast new world it has created and, if they are 'technical' types(or professional or businessmen, don't fully and thoroughly know who Freud and Herodotus and Constantine and Stowe were or what implications Thermopylae had for western civilization and for us today.
And why should they know? It's simply not important for them to. And why do you assume that people who want the best life for their children are "philistines?"



--Philip Coates

(PS, and don't get me started on why Latin in middle school is brain-expanding and helps triple your vocabulary, or the importance of a foreign language, or art and music and organized sports in school.)



You are truly brainwashed, so I have to say that the schooling you went through was a complete success.

Post 213

Thursday, January 11, 2007 - 8:40pmSanction this postReply
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Philip means well, but in this case, yes , would agree he's been in a manner brainwashed..... I say this as one who DID go thru that process of his, and recognised it was a false order and a much waste of my time and endeavors - I learned IN SPITE of those teachers and the cirriculum.... a much more correct view of education, by a teacher once in the system, is this -

http://www.amazon.com/Underground-History-American-Education-Schoolteachers/dp/B000A4IX46/sr=8-7/qid=1168576157/ref=sr_1_7/102-1157340-5183330?ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous

one would do well to read it and think on it......  Walter is more correct in how to learn than is supposed by most - for instance, math ordering of teaching is wrong, beyond perhaps basic number learning - calculus and algebra, for instance, is faster and more easily learned at a young age, say fourth or fifth grade, not when is presently taught.... english is more oft learned from association than in class - and reading is oft persued by those interested in it, as a naturalness, unless given as an imperitave - in which case there is resistance to it, and a lacking thereof in furthering into it...  the list could go on and on - indeed, the notion of NEEDING guidance of teachers to learning is a Dewey notion, and there is an inherant logic to one's natural desire to know which involves one in learning in the various fields - even if not in the order usually proscribed by those Deweyite trained teachers....


Post 214

Friday, January 12, 2007 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Wesley,

I hope you have heard about this new magazine in Austin. It's called Caught in the Act. They had their launch party last night at Molotov. I didn't mention it only because it's a 21-plus venue.

Here are the sites for it:

http://www.myspace.com/caughtintheactmag

http://www.citamag.com/


Post 215

Friday, January 12, 2007 - 11:03amSanction this postReply
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I'm sure they have. The best teacher I've ever had was uncertified and never worked in a school, but still taught me so much outside of the classroom, even without the threat of grades.
Was that Mona Lee?
What's that? Fictional movies and stories say that school is good? Well, bring it on!
Fiction is not an argument.
The schools are made intentionally boring. Someone who is tremendously bored is more likely to consume more as well as be economically predictable in the future.
I think they are designed to make people boring, not bored. A boring person is also more likely to follow orders and "go along to get along." He's more likely to support the destructive two-party system, pay taxes, and submit to whatever his rulers want him to submit to.
Why not? Why can't you wait until you find something interesting to learn it? Why not skip right to Algebra without knowing long division? Why do you think political issues won't make sense to someone who isn't a history expert?
All good questions. Don't get me started on the teaching of math in schools. I got a 790 on the SAT in math, so I never had any trouble with it. It's easy to believe that so many kids hate it because the teaching of math is horrendous.
I think it is because they remember it so well that they decide to unschool. They remember wasting hours and hours of their life with schoolwork, longing to do things they much more enjoyed, but being forced and manipulated into learning what someone else thought was "important" and now do not want to force that upon their own kids.
It was certainly that way for me. What I remember was doing times tables in the fifth grade even though I had mastered them six years before. That was a total waste of time. I am definitely not going to let my kids be held back in that manner by anybody. If my kids want to do calculus when they are ten, I am going to encourage them!
You're wrong. You can skip all of these things. If you need to know them for something else you're interested in, you will be able to recognize that and learn them then.
I certainly could have skipped reading some of that trash written by Hemingway and Fitzgerald. But I read that for school.
If someone is interested in reading and writing, they will want to read all on their own. It is wrong to make everyone read what only a few kids want to. Also, if you can choose your own book and read it just for leisure without having to prove it to anyone, chances are you will enjoy reading much more than if you were forced to read.
Let's say you want to be a great swimmer. Are you going to sit and watch swimming on television hour after hour? No, you are going to get out there and do it. It works that way with everything.

I also know lots of "well-educated" people who can't persuade anyone to do anything.
The good professionals are not teachers. They are mathematicians, historians, etc. They have actual jobs in their field of choice.
This is exactly right. Anyone who is smart enough to be a teacher is also smart enough to avoid it. As a teenager myself, I knew I could never be a math teacher in a "traditional" system. Now, I would certainly consider doing it privately.
Being well-rounded is hardly vital to being successful at anything!
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. --Robert Heinlein

I do not think people should be forced to be well-rounded, but I do think they should be.

If you're a writer or historian, you need not know math. If you're a technician, you do not need to understand the water cycle. And I think that people who are mainly interested in one thing ARE the norm! Why is it that most people have a "thing?" What about a "favorite subject?" And a "special talent?"


 


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Post 216

Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 2:58pmSanction this postReply
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With all this talk about unschooling, I would like to bring up an example of something that has happened many times, as anyone who watches the news knows.

Let's say someone dies at the age of 18. While this is tragic in any case, if that person had been unschooled, at least he or she could have enjoyed a rich, fulfilling, enjoyable, accomplished 18 years on Earth. On the other hand, if he or she had spent the first 18 years of life preparing for life after 18, his or her entire life would have been spent getting ready for something that never came, and thus would have been completely wasted.

I myself am still trying to get out of the mind set of preparing for the artificially created "adulthood." I have to keep constantly reminding myself that I'm not preparing for life... I'm living it!


(Edited by Wesley Bronez
on 1/21, 2:59pm)


Post 217

Monday, January 22, 2007 - 12:35pmSanction this postReply
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     I certainly agree that parents shouldn't be legally compelled to insure that their kids attend a govt-licensed 'school.' I also agree that the Dewey system/style/philosophy lacks big-time. O-t-other h, I don't think it's wise for parents, should they be govtlly-allowed the choice, to 'wait' until their child acquires an 'interest' in learning how to read, divide, write or logic-solve, etc either. In effect, this allows 'dropouts' to drop out early on. And such are not attracted to who they'd then see as  'egghead/nerd/geeks;' they'd stay with their own peer group, interested in nothing beyond killing time, at best. Think about high-school dropouts...and where most ended up.

LLAP
J:D


Post 218

Monday, January 22, 2007 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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     I'm all for 'home-schooling', for those parents who have the time...a-n-d...the skill or motivation to learn the skill, of teaching. Such is NOT a 'natural' talent. For those unable to do such, even in our lousy school-system there are good and worthwhile teachers. --- An aside on 'teachers/teaching': an overlooked aspect of such includes, whatever the subject, be it 'basic' (as I spelled out in prev post) or purely PC-superficial, the idea of 'MOTIVATING' an interest in said subject. A lack of 'interest' is not itself much of a motivator to learn about it.

LLAP
J:D


Post 219

Monday, January 22, 2007 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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     Finally, it seems that many might disagree about which physical needs should be parentally taught to kids re what they 'must' do (dentist-appts, showering, protein-vs-sugar, etc.), yet all would agree that there are some. However, it seems that everything re 'education' in this thread shows that way too many are willing to leave merely up to the children's 'interest-of-the-moment' (aka wants/feelings) what, if and when (and, that's a big 'if' in most cases) they'll apply the mental effort needed to learn...well, anything. Sounds like a pretty Summerhill-ish 'progressive' anti-intellect attitude to me; worse than Dewey ever thought of doing.

LLAP
J:D


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