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Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:19amSanction this postReply
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Whoever devised this poll is on his way to hell. Missing are the *truly* greatest composers of the twentieth century, Puccini & Rachmaninoff. This is clearly the work of a deranged Ellington fiend. That bastard blogger, the cad Cresswell I shouldn't wonder. I bequeath him my vinyl collection & *this* is how he repays me. No, a nod in the direction of Romberg won't assuage. The fires are crackling. Agony awaits.

Linz

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Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:57amSanction this postReply
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Sorry...don't have enough knowledge of these guys to form an opinion.  Ask me another.

Post 2

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:13amSanction this postReply
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The greatest composer of what?  There is no context here.  Steiner's film scores are wonderful.  Romberg is the best American composer of Operettas with Friml a close second.

Post 3

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:11amSanction this postReply
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I almost picked Rachmaninoff .... but it's tough to decide whether he was late 19th or early 20th ...
(Yes, I know the initial performance/composition dates, so one could make a strong case ...)


Post 4

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:52amSanction this postReply
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This poll is too incomplete and contains too many musical lightweights.   The list is missing :

Shostakovich
Sibelius
Bartok
Puccini
Stravinsky
Rachmaninoff (how can he be passed up on an Objectivist website??)

I'm sure there are several others that I am not thinking of that are far better then many of the second rate talent listed in this poll. 

 - Jason


Post 5

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Aaron Copland.

Post 6

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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Why in the hell is a fuckwad like Stockhausen up there?! I agree with Linz on this, whomever created this poll is going to hell.

..er, now what were we talking about? Oh yes.

I would choose Rachmaninoff for greatest 20th century composer. As for the greatest 21st century composer, here is a splendid website you should check out.

www.musicatb.com

Adam

Post 7

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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I picked Rachmaninov. I'd give second place to Busoni. OTHER?

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Post 8

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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Thought before apoplexy people; thought before apoplexy. I'll answer your comments with a Dialogue which is, I'm told, highly fashionable this season. All the best people are doing them.

COMPOSER: Why is a fuckwad like Stockhausen up there.
PC: Obviously because he's a fuckwad. He and ALW are there to a polemical point by contrast. Think about it.

PUNTER: Why aren't Shostakovich, Sibelius, Bartok, Stravinsky, Uncle Tom Cobley and all up there?
PC: Why do you think? SSB and S aren't either good enough or bad enough or relevant enough, and UTC wouldn't fit.

PUNTER: Good enough or bad enough? By whose judgement?
PC: Mine, It's my poll. If you don't agree, get your own. :-P

PUNTER: Relevant enough? To what?
PC: Oh do keep up!

PUNTER: But, but ...
PC: Oh for goodness' sake, just press the 'Other' button will you and be done with it?

HOUSEWIFE: Composer of what?
PC: What do you think they're composers of. Christmas cards? Idiot. (And I do mean that lovingly.)

FISHWIFE: Why aren't Rachmaninov (1873-1943, Puccini (1858-1924) or Busoni (1866-1924) up there?

PC: Two reasons, both contextual, both which could surely have been worked out for yourself:

1) I chose to define twentieth-century composer as one whose work was wholly in the twentieth-century (which means that a similar poll of architects would exclude Frank Lloyd Wright - on this see my second point, below). Rach's Prelude in C# minor was written in 1892. Puccini's 'Le Villi' was in 1884. Rach's was a possible inclusion, but Puccini clearly wasn't.

2) If Rach was included we wouldn't have a poll. We'd have to ask for the second-best twentieth-century composer, wouldn't we. Not much of a poll that.

ARCHITECT: So who is the second-best twentieth-century architect then?
PC: Get your own poll. :-)



Post 9

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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I would have to say Puccini, though several of the others such as Gershwin and Copeland also move me greatly. I don't mention Rachmanninoff simply because I haven't heard enough of his stuff to give a fair comment - something I intend to rectify shortly.

MH


Post 10

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 3:30pmSanction this postReply
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And clearly Chris hasn't voted yet. :-)

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Post 11

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
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I woke up in the middle of post #8 and thought I was trapped in Nightmare on Seddon Street III.


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Post 12

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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Whazzat?

With all the ruckus going on around here over nothing, you left out John Cage?

Just for the record, there are too many works I dearly love by all the composers on that list (except the infamous dastardly Karlheinz) to make a meaningful comparison.

Michael Stuart Kelly - Newberry Groupie


Post 13

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
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I would also vote for Rachmaninov if we are considering him a 20th century composer (and I think we should) but he is very closely followed by Maurice Ravel (also straddling the 19-20th century boundary) and my favorite 19th century composer, Edvard Grieg. There are a number of good recordings of Rachmaninov's works. You can find the complete Ravel orchestral works on a 3-CD set by Pierre Boulez with the NY and Cleveland Orchestras and the complete Ravel piano works on a 2-CD set by Philippe Entremont - both sets highly recommended. I also suggest those of you not familiar with Grieg should check out his Piano Concerto in A minor and branch out from there.

I thought I would also mention the greatly underappreciated and mostly forgotten American composer Howard Hanson (1896-1981). He wrote seven symphonies and a considerable amount of choral and incidental music, all in the Romantic tradition. As a composer, I would rate him a good bit higher than Aaron Copeland, who's work I also appreciate and much much better than others such as Samuel Barber, Bela Bartok, Paul Hindemith, David Diamond or Charles Ives. Hanson's work is all available on CD and I highly recommend it to those of you looking for something fresh.

Now Peter, let's move on to something really interesting with that poll for 2nd best architect. There's really been much too much focus on painting and music lately. And we still don't have everyone agreeing yet at to whether architecture is an art or a craft! I'm sure we can get at least on more good flame from Lindsay over that topic! :-)
--
Jeff

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Post 14

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, this time you are waaaayyy tooo lenient by only dooming this person to hell. But of course you are barely hanging on to purgatory with your fingernails thanks to mentioning one of the two greatest composers of the twentieth century and leaving out
1) Gustav MAHLER, tied for number one with Puccini

3) Richard STRAUSS.

The other composers mentioned by other posters above are all better than most mentioned in the poll, but another one of the greats left out is Ottorini Respighi, In fact there are too many others to mention. In fact, I have to go lay down somewhere for a while after I adjust my pacemaker.

YOU ALL NEED TO SCHEDULE MUSIC TIME AT MY HOUSE IN HOLLYWOOD.
ANY COSTS INVOLVED SHOULD BE SUBMITTED TO YOUR INSURANCE COMPANIES UNDER "THERAPY".

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Post 15

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, I wasn't going to do this...and I have no intention of defending my choice (no need, the poll criteria asks for my judgment), so don't expect any arguments from me. But I just watched my new YES SYMPHONIC DVD, and was so inspired that I had to vote.

In a word, I vote YES.



( Mumbling naysayers:"Voting for a rock group! BAH!" There, it's been said, no need for you to read any further.)

Why Yes? Why a rock group? First things first: Yes is not a rock group. They have rock elements, but are much more than that. Second, why vote a group as a composer? Read on...

Books like THE ROMANTIC MANIFESTO are written about groups like Yes. They set out with nothing more than to be a pop group, and instead reached out for the sun with nothing less than "a total passion for the total height." And they did so with a non-exclusive attitude, offering a vision of paradise for those willing to work for it, those willing to transcend wars of gender and race, class and circumstance. They rejected the art/entertainment dichotomy, and proved great music need not remain defined by the static view of classical music being confined to the domain of stuffy museum artifacts.


- Yes are a group of virtuoso musicians, who can write and perform (and improvise) in a wide range of styles. Yet, while the performances offer ample room for virtuoso displays of glory, they are more than an end in themselves, but part of the larger whole, and serve a purpose musically.

- Yes is more than the sum of its parts. There is a guiding voice of vision in singer and multi-instrumentalist Jon Anderson, who brings a very spiritual sunlit vision to the music, which is grounded by the earthiness of bassist Chris Squire. This vision is shared and expanded on by the compositions of each member, notably classically trained keyboard wizard Rick Wakeman, guitarist Steve Howe, who is one of the most proficient guitarists ever, and even drummers (they compose, too)! Bill Bruford, who brought the syncopated taint of jazz and Alan White, who replaced Bruford's distinct style with his more powerful orchestral style.

-By having a team of composers, they defied the traditional view of composer as lone hero, and formed a veritable "Galt's Gulch" of great musicians working together to form some of the most complex, mind expanding music. In doing this, they demonstrate the uniqueness of music in relation to the other arts: put five powerfully architects on the same project, and you get a jumble of styles. Put five writes together to write a novel...forget it. Music is able to incorporate the vision of multiple artists in a way that no other art can.

-Yes incorporates a variety of styles from classical to jazz to rock to Indian to Native American to country and bluegrass to Celtic to...well, they were world music before world music came along, without appropriating the music for mere exoticness. They assimilated the great music before them into a unique sound that was all their own, not merely rock posing as classical as jazz, but something unique and new.

-Not only did Yes master the traditional forms of musical instrumentation and composition, they pioneered new paths into the future, without abandoning tonality (though they do tread "Close to the Edge" on occasion...). They've worked orchestrally, and bridged the past musical greatness with the new synthesizers and studio technology, without going the "Switched on Bach" route. They, like Roark, did not tack on classical motifs to rococo buildings, they developed their own Reardon Steel.

-They unite the music with a philosophic vision, exploring the interplay between images and words, words and music, on a scale that can only be described as "Wagnerian." No mere libretto pasted on to the music, the lyrics, music and art form a united whole.

-The work of Yes presents a sense of life that can only be described by Rand's favored term "sunlit universe." Though religion is a motivating factor, they use religion in the best sense that one can, one that Rand would approve of. The music of Yes is an anthem to life. The very name of the group is a reflection of that. (Compare Wynand's naming his yacht the "I DO" to the recurring theme of "It can Happen" in Yes music.

-Yes is not ignorant to pain and suffering. Despite the cynical critics who claim that Yes is all sunshine and rainbows, Yes address the suffering in the world in relation to their songs of elation...theirs is not a Pollyanna solution. And they offer no sanction of the victim. "If the summer changed to winter, yours is no disgrace!"

-The music itself? "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture." One has to hear it and judge for themselves. But I will say that I chose Yes above other "progressive rock bands" (for lack of a better moniker) including ELP, King Crimson, and my favorite, Pink Floyd, for the totality of their work. The virtuosity is missing from Pink Floyd, ELP succumbed to excessive showmanship and virtuoso "wanking," and King Crimson, while greater improvisers, lacked the larger philosophical vision as well as vocal ability. (Though I do consider King Crimson to be the dark twin to Yes...Crimson is the shadow cast by the sunlit universe of Yes.)

I vote Yes because I believe they paved the way for the next great musical accomplishment that members of SOLO have clamored for. Some people say that they can only express themselves in full musically through classical (another term that has no real meaning) music, after Yes I find classical music too limiting. The scope, the vision, the variety of sonic possibilities are endless. Sadly, the twin forces of the cynical punk revolution as well as the continuing view of great music being confined to the so-called classical composer has stunted the growth of such development. But there is still hope. We've had Yes and King Crimson, who represent the last stages of musical development in the traditional Judeo-Christian/Pagan worldview. What is needed next is the Objectivist equivalent, who will take the innovations of both bands, replace the philosophy with a secular guiding spirit that takes the musical achievements of the past with the technological sonic possibilities of now, and create a true post modern sound that listens to the future. Sadly, as much as I wish it would be me, I know that my own musical skills are not up to such a lofty ambition, but I hope to spread the provide some fuel and direction for the composers who will lead the way.

That's my vote. Some will say no, but I say "Yes."

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Post 16

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 7:57pmSanction this postReply
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I too consider Gustav Mahler the greatest 20th Century composer, with Jean Sibelius, Carl Nielsen, and Claude Debussy not far behind.  If we stick to Peter's criteria, under which we must confine our choice to composers who published nothing before the 20th Century began, I'd say an excellent case could be made for Erich Wolfgang Korngold.  And at least an honorable mention should be reserved for Sir William Walton, whose Symphony #1 may be the greatest single symphony of the 20th Century; the finale is the most magnificent musical encapsulation of unfettered, orgiastic joy I have ever heard.

JR


Post 17

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 8:25pmSanction this postReply
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It might be more difficult to wiggle Mahler into the 20th century, though he can be considered in many ways the "father" of 20th century music.   He is certainly the best composer of those listed in this thread.   I also forgot Richard Strauss in my first post.   His music is also better then any by those listed in the poll.

"PUNTER: Why aren't Shostakovich, Sibelius, Bartok, Stravinsky, Uncle Tom Cobley and all up there?
PC: Why do you think? SSB and S aren't either good enough or bad enough or relevant enough, and UTC wouldn't fit."

Total nonsense!  Shostakovich, Sibelius, Bartok and Stravinsky are superior BY FAR compared to any of the composers you have listed.  This is a pathetic list you came up with and might qualify as the worst poll in the history of SOLO.   Gershwin and Vaughn-Williams had some interesting things to say and Ellington was indeed talented but the rest are second rate composers at best.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 4/18, 8:35pm)


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Post 18

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
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With all the high falutin' music around, the kat had my tongue, but Joe's brave stance gave me courage to stand on my maestro's shoulders, flick my bic and yell
 
FREEEEEEEBIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!
 
My favorite classical composer is Maestro Kelly.


Post 19

Monday, April 18, 2005 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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Joe- I just finished a review of a Yes album, which will get sent in sometime soon. I hope we can still be friends.
Jeff- The majority of Mahler's symphonies were written in the 20th century, as well as Das Lied Von der Erde and several song cycles, including Kindertotenleider

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