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Post 40

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 7:54pmSanction this postReply
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That was a good insult on my calling sandstone changing "thought". I guess I missed where I said "Humans are as dumb as rocks". Also point to me where I said I value all humans, or particularly productive humans, just as much as sandstone.

How much do you value a "human" life that is sitting in jail his entire life doing nothing productive, just living off your tax money? Yes, I do hold those human's lives to such low regard... much lower regard than a rock.

Not cheers,
Dean
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 3/24, 8:37pm)


Post 41

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher Parker,
I am simply saying that if it is sometimes appropriate to initiate force against another party--under specific types of conditions-- then it must follow that lassez-faire, which would require the punishment of the individual who intitiated force in such a way to be punished would thereby be acting unjustly to that individual.
Do you not agree that the force initiator should be forced to repay the victim's losses-- no matter whether the infringement of property was in the force initiator's dire self interest?

Post 42

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 8:04pmSanction this postReply
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A problem, Christopher: if by "laissez-faire system" you mean not capitalism as an economic system, but a whole political structure, then it is tautological.
If you mean a capitalist system--or a philosophical capitalist thinker--is being inconsistent in holding that force may sometimes be morally initiated, you are mistaking economics for all of politics.
This would seem to be a matter of a confusion of terms. 


Post 43

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,
Didn't you call water eroding sandstone a kind of thinking? I could look the post up, on the Psychology Forum, but I expect you'll recall it. What you said amounts to the reverse, that rocks are as smart as humans, or actually that the water-eroding-sandstone is as smart as any minimally thinking thing.

I'm still worried. No, I'm more worried.

Cheers,
Mindy


Post 44

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher, From my reading, you are confusing lassez-faire capitalism with anarchy. A lassez-faire society still has to have laws, and thus situations where it is just to use force. I honestly can't think of any situation where force is warranted other than when force is initiated by another. Could you please elaborate?

Mindy, What I stated is simply a statement of fact, it is cold in that reality itself is cold. I don't want anyone to die. However, I am incapable of the blank out required to not see that advocating abolishment of collectivist healthcare means that some people will die. I hope (and honestly believe) that a great deal of the slack would be picked up by benevolent organizations along with people just learning to pull their weight, but I know that a lot of people won't. I didn't say that it would be a good thing, just that it would be a thing that happened. I'm sure my view is a little jaded, but I do work in the field. You tend to lose sympathy once you notice that a statistically significant number of your patient transports have the means to get transport (that doesn't cost the taxpayer $250 one way), are not REMOTELY compliant with treatment, and rely completely on the taxpayer for even the basics. In a world of pure consequences, some of those people just aren't going to get their act together. It was widely discussed in my field that there was a serious issue during the katrina relief with people escaping from the disaster zone loaded down with cigarettes, and then expecting to be provided with the insulin they needed to survive by the rescuers. I can't even fathom that thought process, but it doesn't fill me with hope for people that are truly committed to the welfare state model.

Post 45

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 8:36pmSanction this postReply
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I'm still worried. No, I'm more worried.
That's nice. You have no idea what I'm talking about so don't worry about it. Magic.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 3/24, 8:38pm)


Post 46

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan,
I seem to have misinterpreted your remark. I agree with post 44! I do know of the abuses of self and of help-oriented systems such as you mention. I know quite well, in fact.
Also, as it happens, your disgust is one shared deeply by my husband, from his early days practicing medicine, as an ER physycian. He felt so strongly about that aspect of things, he knew he couldn't continue working in the ER.


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Post 47

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Here's what you said, Dean, so that everyone can get just the right idea about it:
On the Psy. Forum, under "Born without a subconscious: More evidence for Rand's view of Mind," in post 13, you wrote, "Sandstone changing its shape as water flows over it is a[n] extremely simple form of "thinking."

Did I insult you, as you claimed, when I referred to your calling eroding sandstone thought? Or did I merely keep in mind what you yourself had said? Which one of us has no idea what you're talking about?


Post 48

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 9:09pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy, you insulted me by attacking my character, my value of human life, instead of attacking whether it is justifiable to kill a person after they repeatedly are convicted for holding innocent people up to gunpoint.

I think the root of your issue to my calling "sandstone changing due to the flow of water" "thinking" is the question of whether reality is deterministic. I hold that reality is deterministic (firmly, this is no devil's advocate). I also hold that we make choices ourselves using our own minds to come up with our own conclusions and decide for ourselves what we do (free will). I am a compatibalist. I think you are taking issue to my deterministic position. There is nothing I can say other than "magic" until I create human level "artificial" intelligence.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 3/24, 9:10pm)


Post 49

Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 9:56pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,

I don't see how anything I've said is insulting at all. I take extreme exception to some of your definitions, and evaluations, but have been (uncharacteristically) tender about doing so each time.

My speaking of worry is a droll way to highlight the divide between your views and those of Objectivism, obviously an unsuccessful one.

I have had no glimmer that the issue of determinism has anything to do with any of this until just reading your post...and I'll have to think it over to understand how the heck it comes up at all.

Attacks on your character? Where? "Attacks" on your valuing of human life, now, that is true. You value human life very much less than I do, very much less than Objectivism does, IMHO. But that cannot come as a surprise, surely? I disagree on that point. Is that an attack? Logically, but not in parallel with "attacking my character!"

By the way, I do think we'll build truly intelligent machines, and my belief is based on very specific, even proprietory views of the metaphysical issues in human cogniton.

I think you are reading insult into staunch disagreement.


Post 50

Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 5:52amSanction this postReply
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My speaking of worry is a droll way to highlight the divide between your views and those of Objectivism, obviously an unsuccessful one.
Oh. So you are not worried that I'm going to start squashing every human around like sandstone, a clear deduction from my statement that any I/O process is thinking? Because that's kind of what you seem to be implying with your claims that I don't value any humans and that you are "still worried" and "more worried".

This isn't ARI. I'm not here to learn what Rand said. I don't have the time to give you more details on exactly what my philosophy is. I am a truth seeker, my goal is to live a very long and enjoyable life, in general I highly value productiveness and highly disvalue initiation of force. My philosophy most closely matches Objectivism, so I chose "Objectivism" on my profile, although I do not call myself an "Objectivist".

I'll ask you a third and last time. What do you value about a human life that has produced nothing of value through his 18+6 years, holding someone up at gunpoint at 18 and 24 years old, now on state welfare in jail for another 6 years?
Attacks on your character? Where? "Attacks" on your valuing of human life, now, that is true. You value human life very much less than I do, very much less than Objectivism does, IMHO.
I value some people WAY more than the average person, and other people I extremely dis-value. My value I place in them directly corresponds with how well their actions promote my long term interests. Do you value people merely because they are human, completely independent of their actions?

Post 51

Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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Dean,
I'm not really sure if he should be made to pay or not.  I know that I myself would probably not like paying for commiting such an act if I had actually done what I was supposed to do in initiating force under circumstances which made it appropriate.  My point though... and I hope you already knew this... was not that he shouln't have to pay for what he did.  It was simply that, as I see it, force either should never be initiated against others, or else lassez-faire would be an unjust system in those cases in which it made a force-initiator pay for having correctly initiated force against another party.  Either force-initiation is wrong in all cases, and lassez-faire is always just, or else force-initiation is sometimes appropriate and lassez-faire would be unjust when applied to those cases, in other words.
I must admit, I'm not sure which of these is the case.  It seems for me though, that the only way in which lassez-faire can have a firm footing logically is if force-initiation is never appropriate, under any sort of circumstances.  This however, would go against what Ayn Rand said in that passage I alluded to in my first post on this thread. (As in that passage, Rand gave an example of a case in which she thought one could rightfully initiate force against others.)


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Post 52

Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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Christopher,


My point though... and I hope you already knew this... was not that he shouln't have to pay for what he did.  It was simply that, as I see it, force either should never be initiated against others, or else lassez-faire would be an unjust system in those cases in which it made a force-initiator pay for having correctly initiated force against another party.  Either force-initiation is wrong in all cases, and lassez-faire is always just ...
You're being too rationalistic about this. It's like you're looking for absolutism in the wrong places. Your thinking on this matter reminds me of Kant's moral thinking. Kant said that if something's moral, it's always moral. His moral technique (moral compass) for finding moral truth was to ask:

"What if everybody did that?"

Hung up on universality / universalization, he quasi-justified the moral error that you should never lie -- not even to a rapist asking where your daughter sleeps at night (and whether her bedroom window is accessible). Kant got himself into that error -- the error of thinking you should never lie -- by asking about what would happen if everyone lied. If everyone lied, we'd all be at war -- never trading with each other to mutual benefit. All of society would break down into a bloody, mob-war; complete with bloody coups and double-crossings and ... etc., etc.

You -- like Kant -- are hung up on such universality / universalization. And -- like Kant -- that makes you liable to gross philosophical errors ... until you stop thinking like that.

Ed 
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/25, 12:43pm)


Post 53

Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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Dean,
You can't ask for the third time what you haven't asked at all. You opined earlier that the fictional armed robber should be imprisoned for about 6 years. If he re-offends without having been productive as well, you said, he should be put to death.
That is the expression of valuation of human life I referred to.
I've brought your reference to the mental life of sandstone here, to this thread. It isn't I who compare rocks and people.
That you value some people is neither here nor there, logically.
When you say valuing human life at all should depend on the actions of the individual, you seem to endorse the view that human life is of zero value until (and unless) the person is productive. I take the reverse view, that human life is valuable until and unless the person does something of extreme evil.
The degree of value I put on different individuals varies greatly. I believe that the difference between good people and bad ones is the largest difference of any sort whatsoever in the universe.
Mindy


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Post 54

Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 5:07pmSanction this postReply
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Mindy, Doh-- well I thought it was the third time, it was merely the second time.
I take the reverse view, that human life is valuable until and unless the person does something of extreme evil.
OK, so are we in agreement that the repetitive gun pulling mugger who has never held a job or done any work is of no value, instead actually a disvalue?

Christopher Parker,
Either force-initiation is wrong in all cases, and lassez-faire is always just, or else force-initiation is sometimes appropriate and lassez-faire would be unjust when applied to those cases, in other words.
Society simply can't let people gain resources by initiating force against others, whether it was based on need or not. Could you imagine a court case where the perpetrator had to prove that he needed to initiate force, and the victim had to prove that he didn't need to? Do you think it would be in your self interest to have a legal system like that? I think its obvious that such a legal system would suck really really really bad. I'd argue that having a laissez-faire capitalist legal system that punishes self interested force initiators is in everyone's self interest.

Further, when a man is initiating force in a self interested way, he must be doing so given that he will be caught and punished in the future by the lassez-faire capitalist legal system. His actions must be worth the future legal outcomes, otherwise its not in his self interest to initiate force.

Lastly, when you say that "laissez-faire would be unjust", I would like to stop you right there and say laissez-faire capitalism is justice. You have to check your premises and your deduction and find a problem elsewhere.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 3/25, 5:09pm)


Post 55

Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 5:25pmSanction this postReply
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OK yourself Dean. The guy is scum. May he rot in jail. May he be forced to work hard in jail. However, his life is not of no value. It takes worse than that to deserve to die. If, on the other hand, he were shot during one of his armed-robbery attempts, I wouldn't trouble to shake my head over him even one little time!
P.S. I, myself, have been in an armed robbery, one where there were actual gunshots. Doesn't mean I'm right philosophically, of course.


Post 56

Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 4:19amSanction this postReply
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    Very interesting thread , Brought to mind many different situations. First though in the analogy of the sandstone and the water. Are they not both changed by their interaction ?
     Once I had the privilege of being allowed to participate with a group of people in a scenario. The group was in a fictitious situation that placed us in a bomb shelter after a nuclear incident. The group had to decide how to find out how to exit the bomb shelter with no guarantee of contamination. The first solution was to shove the weakest person out the door and find out if the would get sick. After some discussion the situation was resolved by a lottery system of drawing straws and drafting a person out of the most eligible. The only person exempt was the pregnant woman. This group of laypeople upheld the laws of the land very admirably.
   I can envision another scenario. After the incident involving the 'samaritan" in the accident talked about on yahoo. The person that attempted to rescue another out of a car that was in imminent danger of catching on fire. The Accident took place in California. I apologize for not having a quote to go back to. Envision some one attempting to disarm a person attempting to pull of a robbery and another getting hurt and the injured party  litigating the person trying to disarm the robber. Suppose said person was just acting in their own interest. Who is to say the robber would not have killed both the disarmer and the injured person or chose to take another hostage.
    Another unrelated example would be a person or persons paralyzed by the trauma of the moment. A physical shock or even a well directed shout could be construed as force. But then again so could utilizing a defibrillator in first aid for cardiac arrest.
  Was the man that inquired today When he asked me if I was feeling aggressive today by the look on my face using force. My reply was that ,"I could not honestly answer his question." To say no would be denial and to say yes would be hanging my self. Equal response for equal action.   


Post 57

Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 9:38amSanction this postReply
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Shouting at someone is not initiating force against them. The distinction between what is and what isn't forceful interference with a person is a critical matter.

Post 58

Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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Someone had posted to this thread a while back asking where it was that Peikoff said in OPAR that intitiation of force against others is always wrong or whatever.  The quote I was referring to is as follows, and is on page 315 in my copy:  "No good is achieveable under any circumstances or for anyone by means of the intiation of force." (Italics mine.)  
Also, Dean: Your remark that lassez-faire is just even if it punishes men in certain (albeit extremely limited) circumstances for taking action which may nonetheless be right for them intrigues me.  Although it seems counter-intuitive to me for the most part, I wonder if there might be some truth behind it somewhere.  I will definitely give some of what you said some thought ;)
As for whoever was implying that I was a second-handed thinker for quoting Peikoff, etc... You obviously have no idea what it means to be an independent thinker.  I suggest you read whatever article it was that Rand wrote dealing with "Who is the Final Authority in Ethics?".  I can't remember if that was the title or not, but it deals with an issue you obviously need to meditate on.  (I realize I may sound hostile, but I am not...at least not that much.  I am admittedly a bit disgusted however.  Things like that... dissing people without having even the slightest clue what one is talking about.. offends me often; this is probably especially the case when I am the victim of such nonsense)


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Post 59

Friday, March 27, 2009 - 12:37amSanction this postReply
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Christopher wrote,
Someone had posted to this thread a while back asking where it was that Peikoff said in OPAR that intitiation of force against others is always wrong or whatever. The quote I was referring to is as follows, and is on page 315 in my copy: "No good is achieveable under any circumstances or for anyone by means of the intiation of force." (Italics mine.)
It is always well to interpret a writer's meaning within the broader context of his remarks. Peikoff was referring to the victim's good in this case, not to the perpetrator's. Here is the full context of his statement:
No good is achievable under any circumstances or for anyone by means of the initiation of force.

Because "force and mind are opposites," force and value are opposites, too.
(Emphasis in the original)

Values, in the objective interpretation, are facts -- as evaluated by a mind guided by a rational standard. "Value" thus implies a valuer who concludes, by a process of cognition, that a given object will sustain his life. One cannot, therefore, sunder "value" from the requisite process of cognition; one cannot sunder it form the mind of one's intended beneficiary -- from his consideration, thought, judgment. To force an individual, however, is to disdain and bypass this process of cognition. No result of the initiation of force, accordingly, can qualify as "good." It is not "good" in relation to the victim. (emphasis added) OPAR, p. 315
Peikoff does add parenthetically, "(Since there are no conflicts of interest among rational men, it is not "good" in relation to anyone else, either.) But observe that this parenthetical remark implies a normal context, not a lifeboat emergency, for in the latter case, conflicts of interest among rational men do exist.

Christopher then states:
Also, Dean: Your remark that lassez-faire is just even if it punishes men in certain (albeit extremely limited) circumstances for taking action which may nonetheless be right for them intrigues me. Although it seems counter-intuitive to me for the most part, I wonder if there might be some truth behind it somewhere. I will definitely give some of what you said some thought ;)
The justification for Dean's position is that the law exists to protect people from the initiation of force. That is its sole reason for existing -- its raison d'ê·tre, if you will. It cannot, therefore, defend the initiator of force, even if such an act were in the initiator's self-interest. There is another reason it must side with the victim, and that is that insofar as the initiation of force is justified in a lifeboat emergency, it necessarily occasions a conflict of interest, because it is not in the victim's interest to have force initiated against him. In that case, however, the law cannot defend the interests of both parties simultaneously. Therefore, it must choose whom to defend, and since the force was started by the initiator, the law must defend the victim by acting on his behalf, in which case, it would impose on the initiator an appropriate penalty, consistent with the mitigating circumstances of the emergency. In other words, the initiator would receive a penalty, albeit a lesser one than a person who committed the same violation in a non-emergency.

I hope this helps in answering your question, Christopher. Thanks for asking.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 3/27, 12:46am)


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