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Friday, March 20, 2009 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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I was reading the section of OPAR last night which is titled something like "The Initiation of Physical Force as Evil", and noticed that in it Peikoff says that initiating force is wrong under ANY conditionsI must admit that I was a bit surprised at that because I have come across a supposed quote of Ayn Rand (which you can view at http://www.jeffcomp.com/faq/murder.html) in which she claims near the bottom of the page that there are emergency cases in which it would be moral to initiate force against others (at least, as long as one later compensated the victim of one's actions in view of his rights).  [The quote is the second of Rand's going up from the bottom of the page.]  Tara Smith, in Moral Rights and Political Freedom also expresses the belief that one may morally initiate force against others in certain emergency situations.  I was wondering, which of these two do you guys think is right?  In other words, do you guys believe that the initiation of force against others is ALWAYS wrong, or that it can be ok in certain emergency situations.  Also, please tell me any arguments you have in favor of either stance.  I must admit that I do not know for sure which stance is valid, although at present I lean more towards the first of the two.

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Post 1

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
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depends on the level of force initiation - I think some examples would be:

Your life in emergency danger vs. shelter from a hurricane or food etc. on someone's property, with intent to pay back

NOT something like, take a gun and kick them out to save your life.

So if it is 1) an emergency, not bad planning on your part and 2) very grave risk to you and 3) It is a fairly small initiation of force on the other person(s)

something like that may justify it


Post 2

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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Not initiating force can be a behavioral principal: It is practically always in your self interest to not initiate force against other citizens and respected aliens. Or it can be a goal: "I never want to initiate force."

There are cases where it is in your self interest to initiate force. Or in other words, "doing what is in your self interest" and never initiating force cannot both be your primary goals at the same time, in some situations you have to choose between one and the other. This is particularly true if your definition of "self interest" (for simplicity's sake) is "to live as long as possible". If your definition of self interest is to "live as long as possible without ever initiating force" then hey, they never conflict.

For example, if you are in an emergency situation: You are in a lifeboat with a floating capacity of 10 and there are 11 passengers all of whom are unwilling to go overboard.

Some might say "If your intelligence is supremely higher than the other organism. You have absolutely no concern for future repercussions: bovine butcher, plant farmer." But I'd argue that this isn't a case of initiation of force because the victims are neither citizens nor respected aliens.

Some might say "To restrain your child/student from doing something destructive." But I'd argue that the parent/child and teacher/student relationships come with implicit agreement that force (particularly restraining force) is consensual.

Is not initiating force a goal or a principal to you? Is it a goal or a principal in Objectivism? If it is a goal, does it trump "self interest" for you? What about in "Objectivism"?

Personally, I think it would be best if everyone had that position that self interest trumps not initiating force... and may the best man win in the extremely rare emergency situations.

Post 3

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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I was reading the section of OPAR last night which is titled something like "The Initiation of Physical Force as Evil", and noticed that in it Peikoff says that initiating force is wrong under ANY conditions.
On what page does he say that? On page 320 he says, "Ayn Rand holds that to initiate force against others is evil."  The phrase "under ANY conditions" is not there.

To the best of my knowledge OPAR does not address an emergency situation like the one Rand did in the link you gave. On page 313 he does say, "Force in this aspect makes a man act against his judgment." In the situation Rand addresses the starving person cannot know if he/she would be acting against the judgment of the occupant of the house. If the occupant were there, he/she might be very willing to provide some food to the starving person.


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Post 4

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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If I saw an adult torturing a child I wouldn't wait for the cops to arrive -- though I would call them after I personally initiated force on the adult. I wouldn't be defending myself -- I would be in no danger and would have no personal emergency -- yet I would initiate force.

There's a contextual issue involved in the statement that it's always wrong to initiate force. I wouldn't call it sloppy communication, but it does fail to capture actual occurrences where it's moral to initiate force on others.

In the playground as a child, I got picked on by an obese kid, Judd. I was an innocent kid who was considerate of others and I didn't deserve to be picked on.

Then I got this tough friend, Mike, who had already spent time in 'kiddie-jail' for doing bad things. Mike stuck up for me. So, when Judd pushed me down on the ice, then Mike pushed Judd down even harder. When Judd's overweight body crashed into the ground, he was really hurt and he started to cry (I think he hurt his tailbone). Judd never pushed me down again, however.

It was moral for Mike to harm Judd like that (even though Judd had never done anything wrong to Mike). You might joke and call it "playground morality" or "sandlot morality" -- but it is deeper than that. Here is a quote explaining why it was moral for Mike to cause bodily injury to Judd (i.e., moral to initiate force). Emphasis mine:

In this paper I have used several different definitions of natural law, often without indicating which definition I was using, often without knowing or caring which definition I was using. Among the definitions that I use are:
  • The medieval/legal definition: Natural law cannot be defined in the way that positive law is defined, and to attempt to do so plays into the hands of the enemies of freedom. Natural law is best defined by pointing at particular examples, as a biologist defines a species by pointing at a particular animal, a type specimen preserved in formalin. (This definition is the most widely used, and is probably the most useful definition for lawyers)
  • The historical state of nature definition: Natural law is that law which corresponds to a spontaneous order in the absence of a state and which is enforced, (in the absence of better methods), by individual unorganized violence, in particular the law that historically existed (in so far as any law existed) during the dark ages among the mingled barbarians that overran the Roman Empire.
  • The medieval / philosophical definition: Natural law is that law, which it is proper to uphold by unorganized individual violence, whether a state is present or absent, and for which, in the absence of orderly society, it is proper to punish violators by unorganized individual violence. Locke gives the example of Cain, in the absence of orderly society, and the example of a mugger, where the state exists, but is not present at the crime. Note Locke's important distinction between the state and society. For example trial by jury originated in places and times where there was no state power, or where the state was violently hostile to due process and the rule of law but was too weak and distant to entirely suppress it.
  • The scientific/ sociobiological/ game theoretic/ evolutionary definition: Natural law is, or follows from, an ESS for the use of force: Conduct which violates natural law is conduct such that, if a man were to use individual unorganized violence to prevent such conduct, or, in the absence of orderly society, use individual unorganized violence to punish such conduct, then such violence would not indicate that the person using such violence, (violence in accord with natural law) is a danger to a reasonable man. This definition is equivalent to the definition that comes from the game theory of iterated three or more player non zero sum games, applied to evolutionary theory. The idea of law, of actions being lawful or unlawful, has the emotional significance that it does have, because this ESS for the use of force is part of our nature.
Utilitarian and relativist philosophers demand that advocates of natural law produce a definition of natural law that is independent of the nature of man and the nature of the world. Since it is the very essence of natural law to reason from the nature of man and the nature of the world, to deduce “should” from “is”, we unsurprisingly fail to meet this standard.

--http://jim.com/rights.html

So, it is in our nature to get justice. It's not wrong to get justice. Ideally, we contract out the serving of justice to 3rd-party folks like cops and courts. But when we can't or don't have access to cops and courts -- such as kids on a playground -- it can be moral to initiate force on others (by "individual unorganized violence").

However, you could still say that collective or organized initiations of violence are always wrong (always evil). That's not sloppy. That's more refined. It's more completely -- if not, entirely -- correct. It means that slugging someone isn't always the wrong thing to do, but that taxing someone -- taxation being something collective and organized -- is always the wrong thing to do (taxation is always evil).

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/20, 4:55pm)


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Friday, March 20, 2009 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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It sounds as though you are referring to "lifeboat" scenarios, where ethics and morals cannot provide answers. At least that is my take on Rand's position, and it makes sense to me. The starving man scenario seems to be of a similar kind. This concept is actually one of the concepts I have based my own views of benevolence on.
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 3/20, 2:58pm)

(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 3/20, 3:21pm)


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Post 6

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 4:45pmSanction this postReply
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where ethics and morals cannot provide answers
In emergency situations many ethical principals (morals) no longer hold true. Morals/ethical principals are associations between events and their impact on goal achievement in a given context. Change the context, and the moral no longer applies.

"Creating a vegetable garden in your country backyard is good." Context dropped: "Creating a vegetable garden is good." Applied to a different context: "Creating a vegetable garden in your driveway is good."

Yea that was silly. I changed the context from "backyard" to "driveway". The original ethical principal still holds true, we found a context where it doesn't hold true. But ethics still applies in both contexts. You can predict that creating a vegetable garden in your backyard will bring you delicious vegetables in the future. You can predict that it will be very difficult to plant vegetables in your driveway; and after planted, the plants will die from being squashed by vehicles, wasting your effort.

In emergency situations you can still use your understanding of how reality works to predict and compare different courses of action, and choose the course of action that best accomplishes your goals. This is the basis of Objectivist ethics and how moral principals and virtues are developed.

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Friday, March 20, 2009 - 5:43pmSanction this postReply
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It would be an oddity of all of philosophy if ethics had nothing to say about emergency situations.

Post 8

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
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Many if not most philosophies are built on the notion that all life is in essence emergency situations... [hence the cry for sacrifice as a solution]

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Post 9

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not going to insult anyone here with a brute cut and pasting. I will say that Rand's thoughts as presented in "Answers" (specifically pg 113), which references the lifeboat question. The general idea, as I understand it, is that man does not live in an emergency situation full time, and thus a morality and ethics for LIVING cannot be based around such situations. A situation where everyone is fighting for their lives is so inherently subjective (you value your life over mine, but I value mine over yours) that solid principles on what ALL of us should do are not possible.
I don't find it an oddity that ethics or morality has nothing to say about emergencies of that nature (we are discussing emergencies of the highest order here, life or death INESCAPABLE emergencies). It seems as obvious and natural to me as the fact that we have great difficulty predicting or analyzing the events beyond the event horizon of a black hole by use of physics. The kind of emergencies involving "lifeboat" decisions are as impenetrable from outside the "event horizon" as events are in physics. The situation is just too subjective and dynamic. A person would still take their values, integrated concepts (or contradictions), and cognitive abilities into such a situation. Given the unpredictability of emergencies (thats the nature of the event) the only possible stance morality and ethics could have would be "Do your best with what you take in with you and play it by ear". Of course one might also add that ethics and morality prescribes avoiding emergencies at all costs.
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 3/20, 7:17pm)


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Post 10

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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If an adult is torturing a child, and you interfere, you are not initiating force.

Post 11

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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I agree. I actually edited the above with a similar statement, but for some reason my edits are dropping into the ether.
I would also note that within our system of delegated use of force, we have provisions for the further delegation of the use of force to bystanders to assist in situations such as the one described.
(Edited by Ryan Keith Roper on 3/20, 7:41pm)


Post 12

Friday, March 20, 2009 - 8:25pmSanction this postReply
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Ryan, Make sure to always "Post/Preview" or "Preview with Spell Check" before pressing the "Post" button. What is currently in the edit box does not get posted. What is currently "Preview"ed is posted.

Post 13

Saturday, March 21, 2009 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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Christopher Parker:  "I was wondering, which of these two do you guys think is right? ...   Also, please tell me any arguments you have in favor of either stance.  I must admit that I do not know for sure which stance is valid ...  "

Uh, Chris, your statement raised a more basic issue to consider. If you ask me, you are making a mistake by asking me -- or anyone.

I was amused at how eager Kurt, Dean, Ed and Ryan were willing to answer the question.  You guys must all be pretty good at running your own lives if you have the capacity to take on someone else's as well.  Practiced parents, are you?

Mindy & Robert -- As I explained here, existence is a lifeboat situation.  Rand dodged the question.  The choice to think or not to think is the choice to live or not to live. In the essay EofE Rand does close with the statement that the rational course of action is to bring the emergency to a resolution with yourself alive and well -- but every day is like that, whether hunting and gathering or designing data spiders. It is a matter of degree, not of kind.  The problem wih a lifeboat emergency is not what you do, but what the other (irrational) beings are going to do.  My goal would be make sure that I am not the one eaten or thrown overboard because that is the likely outcome when collectivists feel threatened -- and they are moved by undefined feelings, not reasons.  So, in a lifeboat, I would use my interpersonal charms to take charge or to support those in charge -- flight attendant, for instance, by default.  The point is that you (by you I mean me) are responsible for your own outcome. 

If anyone can show in any way that there is any circumstance in reality where existence is assured, we can all head to that Garden of Eden.

The universe is not hostile.  Reality is not anti-life.  But neither is it invested in you.  That is your responsibility.

Addendum:
Ever see the movie, The Man Who Would be King?  In one scene, the two ex-soldiers have crossed the river and are drying out by a fire when up comes a gang of natives.  Asks Danny Dravitt of Peachy Carnahan, "How to divide five Afghans from three horses and have two Englishmen left over?"

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 3/21, 5:49am)


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Post 14

Saturday, March 21, 2009 - 6:00amSanction this postReply
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Michael, I'm amused by your amusement. Why the hell else would we be here if we weren't eager to discuss philosophy and examine our views? To put ot in simpler terms, you're being a condescending dick.
As interesting as the stealth subjectvist/anarchist position is, I believe you are incorrect. Humans are social creatures with a demonstrated interest in cooperation and full use of our cognitive abilities. These things are not possible in a lifeboat situation. Civilization, from one angle, is the progressive distancing of man from the immediate life threatening "lifeboat" of animal existence. To say that life consists of nothing else is to deny any value beyond the animal. The lack of assured continued existence is not a lifeboat situation. In effect, you are saying that morality and ehics must be based on omniscience, omnipotence, immortality, or the base fear and anticipation of death that characterizes an animal. We are not Gods or animals, Michael. We are something between, far more than animals but far less than immortals. We require a philosophy for neither state.
Animals exist in a "lifeboat", and thus are amoral and aethical, we may be reduced to nearly that state, but we do NOT exist there. In fact, it is natural to us to consistently move away from such an existence, toward civilization. I have not learned this in a classroom, but in situations where I was placed in such a state. Its is not a difference of degrees of our life, but a complete shift of perspective and mode of life.

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Saturday, March 21, 2009 - 6:32amSanction this postReply
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To claim that existence being assured is the alternative to existence as lifeboat situations - is a false alternative...

Post 16

Saturday, March 21, 2009 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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I was amused at how eager Kurt, Dean, Ed and Ryan were willing to answer the question. You guys must all be pretty good at running your own lives if you have the capacity to take on someone else's as well. Practiced parents, are you?
I have no idea why you are making such a comment. I guess I'll be nice... but here comes some running of your life too (man I'm good!): don't talk about me. Don't say my name, or include me in any of your examples or even imply that I exist or that you are talking about me.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 3/21, 7:26am)


Post 17

Saturday, March 21, 2009 - 9:35amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

I was amused at how eager Kurt, Dean, Ed and Ryan were willing to answer the question.  You guys must all be pretty good at running your own lives if you have the capacity to take on someone else's as well.  Practiced parents, are you?
Some of the others have raked you over the coals for this statement. It seems like you were emotionally ejaculating when you wrote these words. Maybe you think you weren't. I'll let you explain your motivations to me (if you feel like it). However, beyond what it is that must have made you write this out, there is the matter of what it actually means. The question Christopher asked (the one we were answering) is this one:

"[D]o you guys believe that the initiation of force against others is ALWAYS wrong ...?"
You claim that one shouldn't ask this question of others -- to get their answers -- because others can't answer it for you (or for anyone, but themselves). I agree with Ryan that the question -- whether initiated force is always wrong -- is a philosophical question with objective answers. In that vein, I saw the question as an answerable one, and my answer was: "no."

I provided the reasoning Christopher solicited -- the reasons supporting my answer. Yet you still seem to think that this is a subjective issue?

I am not amused.

:-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 3/21, 9:39am)


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Post 18

Saturday, March 21, 2009 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
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Michael M: I agree with Ryan's response, and nicely said, Ryan.
When you say the choice to think or not is the choice to live or not, you miss the whole point about what it is to be human!
Man  is the only entity in the world that can create his own nature. He can't change the vegetative or animal aspects of his nature, (genetic engineering aside,) but he can, if he exercizes his unique, intellectual ability, be a higher sort of thing than any other animal. If he chooses to live as a man, thinking, and therefore producing; thinking, and therefore moral; he brings into existence, in his own person, a higher order of organism than the beasts.
Man can live as a cunning brute, a mixed entity, or he can devote himself to being what men might be. Morality is the study of which is which. Only morality can raise man to his potential. Only practicing morality, which requires understanding it, which requires formulating it, etc., can bring man to be what his potential allows. 

P.S., If you're counting on your charm in an emergency, maybe you'd better brush up on it ahead of time?


Post 19

Saturday, March 21, 2009 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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 I was wondering, which of these two do you guys think is right?  In other words, do you guys believe that the initiation of force against others is ALWAYS wrong, or that it can be ok in certain emergency situations.  Also, please tell me any arguments you have in favor of either stance.  I must admit that I do not know for sure which stance is valid, although at present I lean more towards the first of the two.

As I read this it sounds to me that the request is for the thinking out and thoughtful solutions of others (in the plural), in the absence of an offer of similar --albeit admittedly unsatisfactory -- work of one's own.  It reminded me of the scene where Peter Keating asks Howard Roark whether or not he (Keating) should go to the Ecole Beaux Arts.  In support of that, I point to the fact that the paragraph opened with a comparison of opinions of other experts, but lacking any reasons from them or any evaluation of either their arguments or their conclusions.  If Christopher Parker had asserted anything, balanced the problem, compared or contrasted anything, that would have been fine. 
... the section of OPAR last night which is titled something like ...  Peikoff says ...   a supposed quote of Ayn Rand ...  Tara Smith, in Moral Rights and Political Freedom also expresses the belief ... 
This is all somewhat unfair to him, now.  I only cautioned him against asking opinions. 

Mindy -- reading what I wrote in another topic about introspection, do you honestly in your heart of hearts expect that I live a half-brute existence? 
Ed -- see if you can stand in a different place and perceive this from a different perspective.
Robert -- To claim that an emergency abrogates the rules of morality is to force a false dichotomy.

Again, I point out that the responses came from people (myself included) who consider themselves expert enough to venture unqualified opinions.  That's pretty scary.  I am a parent.  I have been responsible for the actions of another person. I don't recommend it lightly.   As a security guard, I have been responsible for others in times of emergencies. I have entered spaces first to make sure that they are safe for others to enter later.  I have confronted groups of drunks -- and not resorted to physical force or threats or arguments but only charm and wit and thereby gained compliance to maintain social order.    As a pilot, routinely place myself in a situation seven to ten times more dangerous than being in an automobile -- yet it is all manageable.  That is much of what it means to me to be human, to use my brain, my education, my training and reason, to meet a difficult and rewarding challenge.  Life is like that.  If you think that you can avoid risk by ignoring it, you are blanking out.  If I mentioned "operating room deaths" you would probably think of the patient.  In fact, there is added risk to the workers.In the days of ether anesthetic, doctors and nurses were killed by explosion.  (Read here from Time Magazine 1931. )

Did anyone read the essay of mine on Emergencies that I pointed to? 

Read what I wrote about emergencies. Then reply, if you are so motivated. 


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