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Post 100

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Eventually, the deaf were "allowed" to drop the sequential conventions of French translated into signs, and were allowed to develop their own totally independent language ...
This is like saying that paraplegics were, at one point in historical time, "allowed" wheel-chairs -- in order to get around better; you know, like the rest of us do. It wasn't on the paraplegics or on the deaf to, on their own volition, enter into trading partnerships with rational others who had, or would have, learned to trade value for value with them. Instead, "their" need was a moral claim on "our" resources, energy, and time.

Now, be quite sure, this mistreatment that they got wasn't "right" -- it was, in fact, e-v-i-l; but if they had gotten "no treatment" and no "attention or consideration" -- then you'd say that that would have been better, right? Better giving nothing, than "taking away" something, right? Tell me, what was it that they had that was taken away? And how come it then wouldn't have been better to ignore their "needs" (letting them fend for themselves, associating freely, generating the trading partnerships that they were willing to appropriately invest in)?

The answer: because the e-v-i-l they suffered was a result of altruist-collectivism (as all evil is). And I'll take it one step further: The notion that they deserve something solely based on need -- rather than on trade -- is the very wellspring of evil. They want and will, barring tragedy, achieve happiness -- just like the rest of us.

The trick is in leaving them alone to achieve that (rather than attempting some sort of whacked-out, utilitarian-humanitarian-Deweyian-utopian-totalitarian, social-engineering). It's the whacked-out altruist-collectivism that was wrong there, not the more primary, personal ethics of the deaf.

Ed



Post 101

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:16pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You are still thinking that I called you a Whim Worshiper?

Read that section where I said, "I don't think I called you a 'whim worshipper' - I said that if we don't have an objective way to measure value we will be left with emotions. (Based upon that, do you still feel like I was being 'rabid' and calling you a 'whim worshiper'?)"

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Post 102

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:28pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You are still talking about "subtypes of human nature" - there are no such things - by definition! That was the entire thrust of my argument. There is no such thing as a typical trait of human nature or an atypical trait of human nature.

If you define human nature correctly the traits apply to everyone. If they don't - the definition isn't right.

You said, "If the units are subsumed, then this means the units must be individually investigated." And you go on to talk about values. To form a concept of human nature that will work for establishing a standard of value, we only work with the most primary of human traits - Certainly not individual beliefs or likes - and only in generic (measurement omitted form) e.g., not hetero-sexual, but sexual.

Dealing with the most essential traits defining humanness and omitting the specific measurements is the very heart of my argument.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 1/17, 11:37pm)


Post 103

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:48pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

No, I was not overly concerned that you were calling me a whim worshipper, but the implication was that my arguments lead to whim worship, and others have said it more directly. No big deal.

"subtypes of human nature" - there are no such things - by definition!

Well, I take little stock in the by definitionargument as applied to biological populations, as argued above. All species have what is called the wild-type (typical forms considered not to be mutations) and allotypes like albinos and achondroplasic dwarves. Only some of these subtypes have natures that have implications for why certain of their values will differ - homosexuals, the Deaf - and the specific values that will vary will still not affect all their values or make them inhuman. But the differing values will be significant in the lives of those people with those special natures (sub-natures, since I don't deny that all are volitionally conceptual beings).

Ted
(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/18, 11:53am)


Post 104

Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:58pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I think saying that altruism/collectivism caused the problem of the deaf is a bit of a simplification. Their being denied ASL was motivated by Progressive education. But even after that education had been disproven, the non-ASL policy still stood until someone, a linguist of the 60's fought hard to show otherwise. And even the deaf did not accept his arguments at first.

But none of my arguments have said that altruism/collectivism isn't evil or that it hasn't affected these groups poorly. What I have argued waqs that the scientific study of these groups is largely what has freed them.

Think of the terms dumb, stultified (Latin stultus - fool) and "gay" as used in high schools and the effect these terms have had. these groups, so obviously incapable of reason or diseased have been for so long excluded from what it is truly to be human. Even the Torah excluded the deaf from worship as being not truly men.

It's late, I don't want to type as I fall asleep.

Ted

This and the previous post have been edited for spelling

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/18, 11:55am)


Post 105

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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Even the Torah excluded the deaf from worship as being not truly men.
Ted, in explaining these past mistakes regarding the social application of ethics (ie. in politics), I would say that the problem is not because there is something wrong with the ethical individualism championed by Rand. In fact, I see her ethical-political views as the solution to these past problems. Yet you seem to be blaming her ethics, for these historically-mistaken politics.

How would the deaf at Gallaudet University been treated differently, if every relevant, acting individual had already adopted Randian ethics?

Ed


Post 106

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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I still don't know if a single person here besides Mike has understood me on the deaf.

To understand does not mean to agree......


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Post 107

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 7:28amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

The real difference we have is this: You are talking about biological sub types and I am saying the they don't apply to a philosophical concept of human nature for this reason: We create a concept of human nature specifically to include all biological types or sub types. If it is worded or used in a way that doesn't include them, that is an error and it needs rewording or to be used differently.

I have no idea why you keep fighting this - if you don't have one concept for all humans, you will end up with more than one moral code or so many types that you can not have any commonality in values and are forced to use subjective standards.


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Post 108

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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"To understand does not mean to agree......"

To not understand does not necessarily mean to disagree.

Instant agreement is not possible unless a person is saying nothing new [to you] and you already agree with everything they're saying. This is not very interesting. Instant disagreement is only possible in two instances: 1. The person is saying nothing new to you and you already disagree with it. 2. What you are hearing is new but you're not making any attempt to integrate it.

I don't understand everything Ted is saying. We have quite different experience and have read a completely different set of books. I've made no attempt at a classical education, I don't speak any language other than American English. I am sympathetic to Ted's desire for a broad understanding of human nature and its' evolution and I find his comments interesting and enlightening. I have found individuals to be profoundly different. Some people are extraordinarily creative and original. Others seem completely incapable of an original thought. In this respect it is difficult to think of a definition of human being that includes both but at the same time excludes all members of other species.

I have Oliver Sacks "Seeing Voices" and am reading it.

-edited for spelling
(Edited by Mike Erickson
on 1/18, 8:41am)


Post 109

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

I like what you said in the paragraph starting with, "Instant agreement is not possible..." That seems like a good understanding to take to heart.

I also have a background very different from Ted's and am sympathetic to his wanting to be heard and understood. But I still don't see a way to create a standard for human beings that shifts according to biological sub-types.

Everyone,

Anyone else that is reading this thread is kindly invited to post a reply letting me know that they don't get what I'm trying to say - or that I'm making an error - or the writing isn't clear enough - or whatever.

I find that bridge between the metaphysical nature of humans and the biological types a tough area to write in as clearly as I'd like. Thanks.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 1/18, 12:20pm)


Post 110

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:18pmSanction this postReply
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Re Ed, 105

I do not disagree with the main gist of Randian ethics as principles.  I think that where values come from and why they differ among individuals needs to be more closely and critically addressed and that biology provides a means of doing this.  There is precious little I would say is wrong with her ethics except, perhaps, for a tendency to moralize and be judgmental for the sake of being judgmental which was never explicitly advocated but which is evident as implication in her later writings and actions.

Regarding Gallaudet, although some of the problems were ethical, the main problems would have remained that until their natures as spatial rather than sequential thinkers was analyzed (which could only be done through the specific sciences, and not through ethics) there would be no real understanding of their unique "subtype" or whatever you want to call it.  I strongly suggest reading Sacks' book.  It may not be obvious to someone not trained in linguistics as to what he is saying at all times, but perhaps Mike will review it for us as well.

----

My areas of "expertise" are biology (evolutionary, ecological, rather than physiological) philosophy, archeology, anthropology, and linguistics.  I am a comparative thinker by nature.  In general, I get frustrated when I hear people (o'ist or not) discussing topics like homosexuality and ebonics with a context that includes only modern Western English-language perspective that begins with the date of their birth.  I like Paglia and many other thinkers who are not necessarily known to objectivists because they talk about controversial subjects in a very broad context.  Talk to Paglia about homosexuality and she will not only reference the most recent scientific discoveries, but will draw comparisons with Antinous & Hadrian, with the initiation rites of New Guinea natives, with the transvestism and spirituality of the Siberian and Amerind Shamans and the attitude toward sodomy of the Catholic culture of the Middle Ages.

But most modern thought on the subject assumes that gay=leather clad parade exhibitionists=promiscuity=Democrat=so on.  My comment on Rand compared to Jesus well towards the beginning of this post, where I said (admittedly provocatively) that for Rand, biology was tantamount to birth control, was an expression of this frustration when such parochialism appears in Objectivist thought.

Much of what I have been saying here needs very lengthy treatment in book form, and while I have discussed such issues before, I have usually held my tongue because I understand that without documentation and very detailed examples much of what I wish to say will be misconstrued or unclear.  It is perhaps my fault that rather than holding my thoughts, I jumped into the fray this time.  But given the recent more civil tone, I hope what I am saying is having some positive effect.

----

Again, I am not attacking any of Rand's politics or her analysis of the virtues. I am merely arguing that a broader understanding of human nature and a better worked out theory of value are necessary, and that the special sciences, specifically comparative and Darwinian methodologies will be most helpful in doing so.  I am in no way interested in subjectivism, anarchism, Nietzscheanism, whim worship, or any of the like.  I am interested in analyzing which values are universal, which are optional, which are "innate" and which are subject to change. 

I am posting on my lunch break, so more later.

Ted


Post 111

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:05pmSanction this postReply
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Everyone,

Anyone else that is reading this thread is kindly invited to post a reply letting me know that they don't get what I'm trying to say - or that I'm making an error - or the writing isn't clear enough - or whatever.
Steve, in my view, everything you've said in this thread is not only worthy of endorsement -- but serves as an ideal which to aspire.

A revealing admission:
Ted's contentions are mainly with me, not you. Part of the contention that Ted expressed earlier about "me-too" parroting (rather than a point-for-point, 2-person debate) stems from my private communication with him about your comments -- and my personal appeal to your "operative" authority. You see, from my view, you said things so well that I felt that I merely had to sit back and "point" to your posts (which, in my view, answered Ted's concerns sufficiently).

And, while I'm in the mood for admitting things, if anyone is guilty of calling Ted a whim-worshipper (or calling him someone whose premises would lead to a whim-worshipping ethics) -- it's me. I called him awful "names" like "existentialist" and whatnot -- by private email -- and he rightly took the moral high-road with me on that (which made me stop doing that to him). Another thing I admitted to Ted is that I didn't trust myself in maintaining equanimity here -- as I feel that you have.

So, if you are taken aback by Ted's response to you, don't question yourself -- you're doing more than fine here -- because it's my juvenile antics that have gotten Ted so riled up (not your equanimitous and enlightening contributions to this debate).

Ed



Post 112

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 3:07pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

What a fun message! I'm always a sucker for kind words. And it perks me up to know that I'm not the only burr under Ted's saddle.

As long as you are making revealing admissions I'll join you. Although more in the past then now, I did dearly love to cut loose with righteous thunder and shake some poor unsuspecting soul's philosophical foundations. :-) I grin to think of it.

I've been working on 'equanimity' this last year. Initially I tried to dial it up a notch only because I wanted to be more effective in making a point and (to turn fewer people away). But then I began to realize it was making me more aware of what others were saying and clearer in my own thinking.

Like that comment Mike made above about understanding... there are tricks they never taught us in school that if we can get a good grip on them work like a mental muscle builder.

I think an area that would be good to work out more guidelines and better understanding for is polemical style. I loved the way Rand cut loose and tore up her opponents, but I always felt uncomfortable with her level of harshness with supporters. What are the principles in this area? What are the different contexts? For example every time Rand opened her mouth she was, in a sense, speaking for Objectivism since it is her philosophy. I'm certainly not in that context. One principle is for a victim to never sanction the wrong, another is to always assert one's self if your principles are under attack, and there is a different level of harshness needed for a rights violation as opposed to a difference of opinion. But I'd think there is so much more to be gained exploring this issue. Has this been discussed on the forum?

Post 113

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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... there is a different level of harshness needed for a rights violation as opposed to a difference of opinion. But I'd think there is so much more to be gained exploring this issue. Has this been discussed on the forum?
Steve, I could search for links but don't yet have the time right now. Here are some articles that come to my mind. If any title or author is a mistake, I'm sorry -- I just wanted to post a reply relatively quickly (rather than relatively accurately) ...

-Philosophy 'All or Nothing' -- Rowlands
-Degrees of Evil -- Rowlands
-Benevolence -- Rowlands or Setzer or both?

Ed


Post 114

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:25pmSanction this postReply
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Ted, it seems to me that despite your claims, the overall human "desire for happiness" is NOT all that different if you are homosexual or deaf.  The basic human interests are all still there, just different for each based on a slightly different individual.  Pick any person and despite a large variety of individuals and tastes and looks and so on... they are not anything like a Tiger in their nature, or even an ape.

Post 115

Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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Just a quick polite note, since I am tired and my tummy hurts.

Ed, don't you dare take all the credit!

Kurt, Again, of course we are all seeking happiness. (Although the serial killer might even say the same thing) the question is what is happiness, and to what extent to our values differ, (because our natures differ) and can they be deduced from the standard, or must they be discovered, developed, sublimated, and investigated through hard work?

The mere fact that it is not easy for me just to give a syllogism about homos or the deaf should show that for them, investigating their natures is empirical, not a matter of deduction. A poor argument, but true I believe.

This post is not making any new arguments, so please comment on my earlier posts, kind readers. I shall return to the fray at lenggth in a few days, or maybe lunch Friday.

Ted

Post 116

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Researchers Find 'Transsexual Gene'

The nature-versus-nurture debate rages on, but a new study of transsexuals has shown genetics plays a key role in determining our sense of gender.

In the largest genetic study of its kind, 112 male-to-female transsexuals took part in a study involving the University of California, Los Angeles and several research organizations in Melbourne, Australia.

Researchers measured the variation in the androgen receptor gene, which is involved in the functioning of the sex hormone testosterone.

DNA samples from the transsexuals were compared with the samples from 250 typical men.

Researchers discovered the transsexuals were more likely than non-transsexuals to have a longer form of the gene.

"We think these genetic differences might reduce testosterone action and under-masculinize the brain during fetal development," Prince Henry's Institute researcher Lauren Hare said.

Post 117

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

[deleted]


Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 11/01, 11:31am)


Post 118

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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deleted
(Edited by Ted Keer on 11/01, 9:56am)


Post 119

Saturday, November 1, 2008 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

One does not mock sacred things.
I apologize (to all viewers) for what I said in post 117.

Ed


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