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Post 60

Monday, January 8, 2007 - 10:31amSanction this postReply
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Ed T,

What Ted Keer has said about essence is consistent with what Rand wrote in ITOE.
Aristotle regarded "essence" as metaphysical; Objectivism regards it as epistemological.
      Objectivism holds that the essence of a concept is that fundamental characteristic(s) of its units on which the greatest number of other characteristics depend, and which distinguishes these units from all other existents within the field of man's knowledge. ... The metaphysical referent of man's concepts is not a special, separate metaphysical essence, but the total of the facts of reality he has observed, and this total determines which characteristics of a given group of existents he designates as essential (ITOE 1990, 52).
Characteristics are metaphysical, but only the ones regarded as fundamental comprise the essence.


Post 61

Monday, January 8, 2007 - 11:18amSanction this postReply
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Merlin,

I'm not so much in disagreement with Ted's conception of 'essence' -- as I am with his dismissal of the idea that 'essences' (essential characteristics) are instructional in regard to going about the business of ethics. It's not that he doesn't know precisely 'what' they are -- it's that he doesn't care.

According to him (and Ted, just correct me if I'm wrong here), he's found something more instructional to go by, when going about the business of ethics. According to him, one can't judge 'man' based on characteristics essential to man. Either because there are no essential characteristics shared by all men, or because what it is that IS shared -- is not instructional with regard to ethics.

Is that right, Ted?

Ed



Post 62

Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I've now read some Mayr ( ... one of the sharpest minds of our age.") -- and am thoroughly disappointed. I purchased "What Evolution Is" and was left philosophically-impoverished by "his" characterization of a biological species (as opposed to a typological one). He trades on ambiguities and steals concepts at will (perhaps I will delve on more details of this fact of reality, later). As "one of the sharpest minds of our age" -- he disappoints me, thoroughly. I will post a rebuttal, to his faulty thinking, upon request.

p.s. I'm not mad at you that I chose -- on your suggestion -- to buy one of his books. After all, he seems -- to perhaps many people -- to know what it is that he's talking about.

Ed


Post 63

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 2:38amSanction this postReply
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In my quest to find some relevant quotes from Ernst Mayr on why species don't have essences I purchased his last work (he died in 2006 at 101) and wrote the following review which I have already posted to amazon. I would appreciate any feedback on the review itself.

What Makes Biology Unique? Considerations on the Autonomy of a Science
by Ernst Mayr

The Last, but not Best, Work of a Great Mind,

I wish to preface my review, which is generally critical of this last of Ernst Mayr's works, with the statement that as a biologist, systematist, and historian and philosopher of biology, the late centigenarian has always had my greatest intellectual respect. His "Growth of Biological Thought" is an excellent history of the subject, his "Toward a New Philosophy of Biology" is both biologically and scientifically rigorous and both works deserve long lives in print. As with his mature publications, but unlike some of the works of his final decade, they are accessible to the amateur without suffering the faults of 'popularizers'. They represent seminal yet what is now consensus thought in their fields. Unlike the valuable but controversialist works of Gould, Sagan, and Dawkins, they continue to influence not only the thoughtful layman, but also the quiet scholar and the conscientious academic. Unfortunately, this title, for various reasons, chief among which is likely the age of its author at publication, does not live up to the standards of his works from the 1940's until the late 1980's. Out of generosity, I have listed given this title a rating of three stars out of five. Were a more nuanced system available, two and a half stars would be more just.

Before my analysis, a brief description. The hardcover edition of 2004, xiii and 232 pp, including index, consists of 12 chapters, each basically a stand-alone essay, with the first ten addressing the subject mater of the title, and the last two, "The Origin of Humans" and "Are We Alone in this Vast Universe?" added on to what the author himself reflects in the preface will be his last work. All except chapters 1, 4, 6, and 10 are revised from previous publication. There are no illustrations, diagrams, maps or any other graphic additions to the text. Except for the glaring misspelling of the names of J. B. S. Haldane and Jared Diamond on the first page of the "Acknowledgments" and the obvious error on p 215 that "The Hominid lineage originated 300 million years after the origin of life" (which is either off by several billion years, or meant to refer to the emergence of vertebrates on dry land) the text is mercifully free of typographical or other production mistakes.

The chapter titles from one to ten as given in the Contents are: Science and sciences, The autonomy of biology, Teleology, Analysis or reductionism? Teleology, Darwin's influence on modern thought, Darwin's five theories of evolution, Maturation of Darwinism, Selection, Do Thomas Kuhn's scientific revolutions take place? and Another look at the species problem.

Some brief comments, and then some critical comments on selected chapters. Again, the major flaw of this work is the results of it being what the author himself began in his nineties and admitted was his final book. Unlike "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory" Stephen Jay Gould's prolix 1454 pp 'ultimum opus' this work errs on the side of brevity and exclusion rather than an uncritical inclusion of the author's every desperate last thought. Too often we read Mayr saying that he will either omit or not repeat arguments he has made elsewhere and will refer us to works by himself and others for crucial arguments. This tendency has the unfortunate effect of making the better chapters of his work incomplete outlines of his total thought. Since most of that thought is elsewhere available, the reader may wish he had purchased those publications instead, many of which are still either in print or readily available. Also, while it would be unfair to criticize this great man of ignoring the state of affairs in biological thought into his ninth and tenth decades, it is obvious to the close and current student of biology that, as in his otherwise valuable and unobjectionable "What Evolution Is" little new theoretical thought and cutting edge science is either integrated or addressed.

Of particular value, and the reason for which I gave the book three, rather than only two stars, are the following chapters. In "the autonomy of biology" Mayr addresses the fact that while the physical sciences which deal with subjects such as physical constants and chemical substances which do not vary in time, and thus admit of what he admits are properly characterized as laws, he here says that for the most part biology is contingent, historical, and rather than law-governed, it is "concept" oriented. Concepts, rather than laws, admit more easily of exceptions. As with the Neogrammarians, we might object that every "exception" demands its own rule. But his point is well-taken. He also criticizes the "determinism" of physicists or "physicalists" (for which some, if not most, current theoretical physicists might find sympathy) but he means here not quantum fluctuations or other forms of unpredictability but rather that in biology results are contingent and that such things as which of a pair of chromosomes goes into which cell during the reduction phase of gametogenisis is not "determined" by any higher principle. He is not saying that such events are physically undetermined, but that they are undetermined so far as the results are concerned. The is a very weak form of anti-determinism, yet again is also a point well taken.

In "analysis or reduction, " perhaps the best chapter of the book, he cogently explains that while reductionists claim that all phenomena are best understood by being described at the lowest level (i.e., smallest possible scale) of description, and that all higher level "laws" such as the putative laws of genetics and presumably psychology can and should be reformulated in terms of lower level laws, he correctly points out that not only has every attempt to do this failed, it is also ridiculous and doomed to failure. He gives Huxley's example of the obvious fact that the wetness of water cannot be reduced to the properties on their own of hydrogen and oxygen which are gasses. He explains that one must accept the validity of "emergent" properties which depend upon the organization (read form) of more complex entities rather that from the mere additive properties of their constituents (read substance). He claims, quite plausibly, that not only are emergent properties "true novelties" they are even more strongly "unpredictable" in principle. He explains that analysis, rather than reduction, is and always has been the proper term for the proper methodological procedure of the sciences. He gives the example of a hammer, and asks beyond describing a hammer as a useful combination of a striking weight and a handle, what is the purpose of analyzing the microscopic or molecular structure of the handle itself? Indeed, beyond specifying that as a "handle" it needs to be made of some strong and preferably light-weight material, but can be made of any such suitable material, what is gained then in the understanding of a hammer as a hammer by describing the cellular structure of wood? Likewise, he asks what use anyone could make toward guessing the function of a kidney by being given a list of the molecules comprising one? Description below a certain level does not only result in diminishing returns, it is perverse and positively unhelpful. Analysis is a description which proceeds to the lowest meaningful level, and no further. Reduction, he says, is a term which should be dropped from the canon of the sciences. He argues that holism is essential to biology and that the anti-reductionist "opponent" of the proponents of reductionism has never been more that a skeptical non-reductionist mistreated as a straw man. Most convincingly, he asks what can any lower level of description such as particle physics or chemistry have to tell us about such meaningful (at their level) biological concepts such as "territory, speciation, female choice, founder principle, imprinting, meiosis, competition, courtship and struggle for existence [?]"

In other chapters, such as "teleology" he gives a clear and non-controversial explanation that while goal-oriented action does occur as a result of natural selection, it is neither a cosmic orthogenetic principle nor based on any "occult vis vitalis." In "Darwin's influence on modern thought" he argues that much more so than relativity and particle physics, Darwinism, by making theistic explanation of the origin of species unnecessary, has had a much more profound effect on all educated Western thinkers except for those with "religious commitments." (He overreaches in ascribing bilical literalism to "all" orthodox Christian sects before Darwin. He perhaps is ignorant of the medieval Catholic scholastic teaching that books must do not reveal themselves, but must be interpreted.) In Darwin's five theories of evolution, he explains that Darwin originated many separate and equally important theories such as 'common descent' and 'natural selection' which each count on their own as vital discoveries and that some ideas of his such as sexual selection took until as late as the 1970's to be widely understood and accepted, while, at least among scientists, 'common descent' was accepted without controversy and almost immediately. In "do Thomas Kuhn's scientific revolutions take place?" he explains that at least in its strong form, and at least for biology, Kuhn's famous "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" makes overly broad generalizations which are false if applied to biology. In this, as in many other circumstances, he refrains from criticizing what he sees as "physicalist" pre-occupations (saying that Kuhn was, after all, a physicist) when the reader might even have agreed with a broader attack on such theories for factual, philosophical and epistemological reasons. But when discussing the effects of taxonomical concepts on biology and of biological discoveries on taxonomy he remains strangely silent regarding the currently ascendant Hennigian cladistics. He has been cogently critical of cladistics elsewhere when it is moved from its proper place as a methodological tool to an overarching ideology such as it is today. One gets the impression he did not want to bite off more than he could finish chewing, and I would have loved to hear his Onithologist's criticism of those who reduce all amniotes to either reptilians or mammalians, with birds being reduced to reptilians, (indeed, maniraptorians) while the scale covered egg-laying Dimetrodon is promoted to a mammalian. No such nonsense would have been made had the Dimetrodon been described by an alien visitor before the mammals evolved and the trditional dinosaurs went extinct. Only with the 'forethought' of ideological hindsight do we make that distinction about the Dimetrodon, not on its merits during its time, but perhaps on a sense of our own.

In "another look at the species problem" which addressed the differences between asexual species, sexual species, and typological species, as well as taxonomical species and natural kinds, he overburdens what should be a clear discussion of the difference between the special status of a sexually reproducing species as an entity of a unique nature in biology (the nexus where evolution actually occurs) and other levels of taxonomy such as the genus or the phylum with confusing jargon and says much less eloquently and fully what he had said much better decades before. Higher taxa are basically classificatory tools which are to some extent artifacts of the classifier's tendencies to lump and split. How can one compare whether genera among the ants, and genera among the turtles are truly of the same ontological rank? The species, which, as an isolated but interbreeding population, is defined not on the basis of perceived similarity or typology, but on the empirically verifiable presence or absence of interbreeding and of isolating mechanisms, is of the same ontological rank wherever identified. Indeed, many biologists and philosophers of biology would refer to species as particulars, not as kinds. As particulars, they do not admit of being treated as "platonic classes." They are not static groups with essences, which cannot evolve except by "saltum facere" They are variable populations identified by the sole criterion of interbreeding. Their nature changes in time, while the dead objects of the classifier lie pinned and encased, if not in museums, then in fossil strata. But all Mayr wishes to say here remains a confusing jumble. He resorts to confusing formulations and acronyms. He gives few examples, except for the enlightening Paramecium aurelia, which while on typological grounds had been thought to be one species, has on deeper inspection been shown to be 14 different sibling or "crypto" species. Likewise, animals which to all appearances should be "classified" as multiple kinds end up being shown to interbreed, producing a polytypic species where many individual monotypic species might have existed. As in other chapters, he addresses only the newest objections, and refers the reader elsewhere for better formulations and previously made arguments.

Finally, a brief comment on the last two chapters. In "the origin of humans" Mayr makes a few interesting points, implying apparently that human hairlessness may be a by-product of the subcutaneous baby-fat of humans which is not found in the more developed babies of other great apes who, with their smaller brains, are relatively more mature at birth. He comments that he rejected the proliferation of hominid genera ideological grounds long before Java Man and Sinanthropus were demoted from their own genera to the level of conspecific variants of Homo erectus. He remarks that Sahelanthropus tchadensis is a fossil to watch out for, perhaps a link between the chimps and man. But from his description of it as having brow ridges that would do a gorilla proud, one wonder why he describes it as a possible link between chimps and Australopithecines, when it would be less unchronological to describe it as a possible link between or sister to all the African apes, including man.

And last, and most disappointing to me, was his chapter on the foolishness of the SETI program. While his conclusion that money spent on SETI, which he described as amounting to the hundreds of millions, would likely never be rewarded by an unlikely radio response, can hardly be denied simply given the vast distances of space (which he did not mention) and the brief historical period for which man has had an "electronic" civilization, he makes objections which seem more politically than scientifically motivated. He asks whether, if intelligence were such a good thing, why it had not evolved many times on Earth, given the "rudimentary" intelligence of parrots, ravens, elephants, primates, carnivores, and dolphins. He does not consider that since biology is indeed historical, there had to be, like the first flying insect, the first pterodactyl, the first bird, the first bat, some pioneer. Given the totality with which we have wiped out all but the most remotely cloistered of our relatives, the few surviving great apes, all of which face almost immediate extinction in the wild, and which represent at a modest count only some twentieth, if not one hundredth of all the diversity among the hominids and great apes since our origin, why would we not also wipe out, or at least prevent the rise of dominance of other "intelligences." Is not the niche full? Should we reach other planets, will we not then begin our own great evolutionary radiation? And is it not conceptual language-mediated intelligence which is currently unique, while the trend toward intelligence itself is plain to see, at least among the mammals, which have trended steadily higher in their encephalization quotient since the end of the Cretaceous? If man were to go extinct, yet the other "rudimentary" intelligences he listed to live on, is there a foregone reason to argue that some distant descendant of the meerkat or the elephant might not attain the conceptual faculty? He argues that extraterrestrial intelligences might be auditory, or even "olfactory" (I admit, this one is beyond even my imagination) but that then they would never develop the electronic culture necessary to discover radio. As if radio were visible to our senses, or as if the deaf might never discover science. Again, if one acknowledges the conceptual nature of our thought and culture, what makes it obvious a priori that alien minds, whatever their sense modality, might not make the same essentially conceptual discoveries that we have? The arguments he makes are weak and perfunctory. And why would the money (whose money?) spent on SETI be better spent on protecting or cataloguing vanishing biodiversity, as if such research money cannot be privately raised, and as if human endeavors are a zero-sum game? SETI may be doomed. Perhaps we are the first. Perhaps they are too far away in space and time. But why not look at SETI as "pure research" or bemoan the amount of money spent on scented air-refresheners or body-piercings, or homeland security pork-barrel for dubious targets in Wyoming and Nebraska or to build unwanted bridges to nowhere in Alaska? Fatuitously, Mayr asks if "there is intelligent life on Earth?" These are not the most propitious words for the last chapter of the last book of a great mind.


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Post 64

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 2:39amSanction this postReply
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So long as 'evolution' is considered as biological, instead of a concept of 'the nature of things', that is, as the intrgral manner of the universe, of which biological is but a part - there will always remain that problem, Ed......

Post 65

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 3:34amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

My apologies regarding What Evolution Is. I would not have recommended it and I did not mention it. The book is meant for laymen and shows him not in his best light. While reviewing the above for amazon, I did not wish to read new posts here lest they bias my review. And you will see that I was critical here as well.

I have no problem with essences as Rand defines them as they are used in concepts. Again, I have two side concerns. Man may be a concept, and indeed, given the essential difference of conceptual rationality between us and all other animals, denying that it is a valid and useful concept would by silly and false.

But a morality which make life the standard must look at life through the science proper to life. In biology, we learn that species as biological populations are not necessarily kinds or types but are always populations of unique individuals (each individual as fully real as the next) which are reproductively isolated from other interbreeding groups. Individual organisms are not variations on a theme but are each fully real and unique, not better or worse approximations to an ideal.

If we look at people through biology we see that as with many other species, they show varying types, each of which may have its own nature. Insisting on essence here is misleading and counterproductive. The deaf are a great example. Did you read, and do you have criticisms of or questions about the quasi-review of Oliver Sax's Seeing voices? I would suggest that you read that and his Anthropologist on Mars as much better empirical research and also great reads in themselves. I was shocked by the first given my previous immature thoughts on Gallaudet. I was profoundly moved by the second, and was shocked to find that its title character the anthropologist on Mars was another hero of mine, Temple Grandin. Read her Animals in Translation as well. I suggest the order Anthropologist, Animals, and Seeing. Then you can add on Sacks' The man who mistook his wife for a hat for good measure.

Each of these books shows that while yes, typical and healthy humans are all rational, simply knowing that rationality is the essential quality of the referents of the concept human doesn't get you any where near enough a true understanding of human nature in all its variations to deal with the special cases who are rational too, but who cannot be happy simply being told to live like "typical" rational humans. For all too long, homosexuality was considered irrational. It is accepted in Objectivism now, however grudgingly, because there are so many intelligent articulate "gay" Ayn Rand fans who were willing to see her genius over the prejudice of her times.

Again, the other groups that I have mentioned, such as the eidetic functioning autists (Grandin) the Deaf (Seeing) and the brilliantly witty and both mentally and physically fast and precise Touretter (Anthropologist) all have unique enough subtypes (as do Dwarves, intersexuals and many others) that they can not find happiness through trying to live however closely to the "norm" as they can. They must each explore their own natures bottom up, not deduce the road to happiness from the top down.

The last step in the chain is to lead back to the original post, and address whether, if it is a part of their natures, how the born-psychopath or the would-be child molester can find happiness. Simply screaming that such monsters are not rational is begging the question and does not tell them, if they exist, how objectivism or rational egoism can guide their lives. Maybe they are irredeemable monsters, and it can't. Maybe they can change. Or maybe they can sublimate their urges in ways that allow them to coexist with the rest of us eusocial types who don't see "victims" as necessary to our own happiness.

Among the Norse, and among many circumpolar cultures, existed the "berserker" who was taciturn for the most part, but subject to a swift and violent rage. This has been seen as a cultural phenomenon, but makes more sense to me as a personality subtype that served a very necessary place in times when standing armies didn't exist, but when an occasional screaming naked madman might be the only thing standing between his tribe and its extinction. Are such types among us still? How will we know without research? Can they be medicated, or be directed into sports or the military?

What was the mental type and the perversion of the 9-11 hijackers that prevented them from living happy home lives? These were not some otherwise happy-go-lucky dupes of an evil religion but were a known type to the terrorist recruiter, and a type which learn to identify themselves all to often before we identify them only after their crimes. Can we identify them before, and show them a rational happy purpose within society?

So long as homosexuality was denied and homosexuals denied it to themselves, they became religious authorities and all too often did and still do prey on impressionable victims. Homosexuality is not contrary to reason. Denying its existence, and then being surprised that the list of abusers never stops is what is irrational.

Objectivism under Rand per se didn't touch these issues and doesn't reach out to these people. It offers condemnation and diatribe rather than a willingness to accept that not just everything Rand herself liked or "got" fell within the realm of the human. When reality and your "facts" clash, be willing to check your premises.

Ted


(Edited by Ted Keer
on 1/14, 3:42am)

(Edited by Ted Keer
on 1/14, 4:34pm)


Post 66

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Mayr:
typological species = that which can be differentiated from every other entity
biological species = that which can't be differentiated from every other entity; it's that which "interbreeds," and interbreeding isn't "enough" for differentiation from every other entity -- because it's not "taxonomical"

Interbreeding, even though it totally differentiates some entities from others (i.e. it allows for the existence of "natural kinds" of things) -- is not "allowed" as a totally-differentiating characteristic -- because Ernst "says it isn't so."

Give me a break!

One wonders whether Mayr himself isn't an "inbred."

Ed



Post 67

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 8:32pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Give the man some credit. By a "typological species" he means a group defined based on some trait, such as the red-winged blackbird or the crested nuthatch. Such groups are being differentiated conceptually whether or not they actually represent isolated species (the actually interbreeding populations at whose unique level evolution proceeds) or more than one species (perhaps some redwing blackbirds only mate in March, others only in June, and although they now look the same, they are two different species who, once separated, will never in the future rejoin) or only a part of a species (maybe we think wolves and chihuahuas are different things, but both can breed with beagles, and in due time, except for man's interference, the chihuahua would either disappear thru dilution or would simply go extinct, while the species itself would revert to the "german shepherd" like norm.

By typological species, he means what is in fact a concept. This is all we can even grasp at in fossils.

Biological species are those entities that exist right now, where evolution is actually proceeding, and they are neither the constructs of the classifiers nor concepts with essences but simply populations of unique individuals who do or do not interbreed.

Your incredulity is not an argument.

Kingdom
Phylum
Class
Order
Family
Genus
* Species
Race
* Individual

All the levels above are matters of conventional classification except two, which are unique. I assume I don't need to explain why individuals are. Species are because only species as a whole can split and only at the level of species does evolution occur. The mammalia (a class) are not going to up and split as a whole now, or any time in the future. If, millions of years from now, future classifiers were to split up mammals into two different classes, it would be because of future evolution the had occurred at the species level.

BTW, elsewhere, you say that a man without a brain is not a man. This is indeed a stolen concept. A what without a brain is not a what? A man without a brain is indeed a man. A very unfortunate and soon to be dead man, but a man nonetheless.

Given that Rand did not study these issues, that she is dead, and that no one ever called her on them I have no problem with her. But those of us still living cannot avoid the question.

Finally, I have provided many examples of what I mean above, including the Deaf, etc. Should I accept your silence as tacit acceptance of the triumph of my arguments? Even if you do not understand (or I have not explained) the concept of species to you clearly enough, certainly my examples themselves have some import?

Ted

Post 68

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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BTW I am not sure where you are getting you definition of bioloical species. (Perhaps an unclear formulation in a book I did not recommend?) But "interbreeding" is the differentia of the genus population which comprises the concept of "biological species." Interbreeding does not serve as the differentia of any specific species from any other. It is the differentia of the concept of species itself. I see where you are going wrong here.

Calling perhaps the most respected and least controversial biologists of the last seven decades inbred is simply childish.

Ted

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Post 69

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 9:59pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

(Referring to your earlier post) You said, "...a morality which make life the standard must look at life through the science proper to life."

Actually, I think that a morality which makes life the standard will look at life at the level that is appropriate to answering questions posed by morality. That is not evolution and not biology. We are talking about the most basic concept of life and human nature as defined in metaphysics and epistemology. Evolution is theory that lies in the root of biology - applicable to all living things. It has to be consistent with the underlying philosophy of biology which, in turn, has to be consistent with epistemology and metaphysics that its foundation. Knowledge is hierarchical.

If there is contradiction, one side or the other is wrong. But I'm not seeing a contradiction at this point - I think there is an unresolved ambiguity in play on the word 'life' and 'nature'.

You said, "If we look at people through biology we see that as with many other species, they show varying types, each of which may have its own nature. Insisting on essence here is misleading and counterproductive. The deaf are a great example."

This is an ambiguity on the word nature. Yes the phenotypical and genotypical variations exist, but it doesn't change the fact that we have similarities – held as conceptual entities - forming a common nature. The commonalities we are interested in are specifically those of all humans. The aspect of human nature we are drawing upon for morality is the capacity of rationality (specifically and necessarily including choice) - not on other aspects of being human (eye color, deafness, blindness, etc.)
...
Talking of special cases, you said, "...who cannot be happy simply being told to live like "typical" rational humans." Here the mistake would be to accept that "live like a typical rational humans" is a valid understanding of a standard. The terms 'typical' with 'rational' only coincide by accident! It is the absence of a reasonable standard that lets people gets away with saying "You must behave like everyone else, or you are irrational or immoral."

Regarding all people who find themselves outside of "norms", and their having to find their happiness from the bottom up - we all have to do that. A good standard gives us enormous help - if we aren't using reason in some way, we are left trying to use emotions as tools of cognition and that doesn't work. If the chosen standard doesn't work for people who are outside of the norms, then there is a flaw in the definition of the standard. If Rand's definition is flawed, then what would we put in its place? Would we say there is no standard and that every individual's moral code must be unique?

I've always felt uncomfortable with the some of the moral judgments made by some Objectivists - they seem to made in areas that couldn't be reduced to a choice or couldn't be shown to be anti-life or were inappropriately harsh (or all of the above.) I suspect that there have been some people who picked up Objectivism because it provided them with - sharp sword to attack with. I personally make it a policy to reserve harsh moral judgments for those who choose to violate individual rights. Other issues, for example severe drug abuse, I say is ‘technically’ immoral, but only because it is so harmful for the person and damaging to there long, term happiness. I feel bad that a person is harming himself - even if it is their choice. Individual rights make a nice mental dividing line. If someone crosses it he harms all of us. You can’t cross that line with out violating choice – which means they are, in effect, choosing to step outside of the species (morally speaking) and the harshest of condemnations is appropriate. If he doesn't violate another’s individual rights, he is still one of us – a human.

Morality has to do with choice. The biological types you referred to are outside of choice (dwarfs, deaf, etc.) When people condemn homosexuals they make many mistakes: One has to do with choice (to the degree that homosexuality is genetic there is no choice), the other mistake is attempting to say that normal or typical is what is meant by human nature, third is condemning someone for pursuing happiness in a way that violates no one else’s rights. A fourth kind of error in this area is saying, that evolution or society decree that it is only ‘natural’ that man be heterosexual or else it is the end of the species – which makes the individual the means used to achieve the ends of the group.

Happiness is a goal for all rational people as individuals - a rational morality would never choose between the greatest long term happiness for an individual and anything else (unless their act would violate the rights of another). After all, if they act in a way that harms themselves it IS acting against their own happiness.

I think there are problems in the definition of the standard of values as it stands, but I do agree with the spirit, the intent and the direction Rand took. I just don't think the job is done.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 1/14, 10:01pm)


Post 70

Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Much of the problem here is that the ideas I wish to express are not addressed anywhere within the Objectivist canon or anywhere in a coherent manner outside the objectivist canon. For this reason I like to recommend readings of Sacks and Grandin who, while not objectivists, are rational egoists, whether they themselves would say such a thing.

I see that you agree with the bottom up approach., and I agree that it does not only apply to the "atypical." I am glad you know what the difference is between a genotype and a phenotype. I also agree that biology in the widest sense is not necessarily relevent to ethics, but an ethics based on life (and values which are based on our common and individual natures) will have to b e explored thru introspection, psychology, neurology, physiology and other special branches of biology.

I found Brandens choice of biocentric to describe his post Randian thouht wise and telling.

Any further constructive comments would be quite appreciated.

Ted

Post 71

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 4:49amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Calling perhaps the most respected and least controversial biologists of the last seven decades inbred is simply childish.
Maybe so, but children are often 'right' -- in a 'brutal honesty' sort of way.

Tradition is nothing.

Ed

p.s. Steve's comments were spot on. Consider me in total agreement with them -- in any future discourse on this subject matter.


Post 72

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Mayr's comments have absolutely nothing to do with tradition. His arguments are peer reviewed, backed up by (are indeed the basis of) the Darwinian synthesis of the 1940's which has laid the groundwork for all thinking on evolution for the last 60 years. Both Dawkins and Gould gained their fame by their objections to his formulations, objections which, if you understood them, you would see as even further from what an objectivist who actually comprehended the concepts would accept. Yet in the face of Mayr's criticisms and others, Dawkins' and Gould's theories have been softened and retracted to revert to Mayr's own. Mayr himself objects in his last book, reviewed above, that Dawkins' "meme" is nothing more than the concept of "concept" repackaged and resold as if it were something new. Mayr would (with the exception of his apparent politics) have made a pretty good objectivist on both epistemological and ontological grounds. But Mayr was never the issue, I suggested some works of his, which you have not read (and which I will order for you on Amazon, if you will read them - communicate to me privately) in order to clarify the distinctions which I myself still am quite willing to attempt to clarify.

I am very disappointed by your behavior. Your last post was simply petulant. I have asked you many direct questions, none of which you have answered. Again, from your mouth, unless you last post was a tacit admission of defeat, what examples of mine do you object to, accept, not understand, or wish clarification regarding? So far as I can tell, Steve's position is closer to mine than have been your objections to mine. Steve said "I think there are problems in the definition of the standard of values [life!!!] as it stands, but I do agree with the spirit, the intent and the direction Rand took. I just don't think the job is done." This is exactly the point I have been arguing and you have been objecting to from the beginning!

Do you not understand my clarification of the difference between a typological species (a natural kind) and a biological species (an evolving population isolated from other populations)? Do you not understand that interbreeding is the essence of the concept "biological species" and is not the essence of any particular species itself, because then all species (which again, since they are populations, and not species) would share the same essence, which would be absurd anyway? Do you not understand that different from all other taxonomic ranks, (biological) species, and species alone, is a particular, and not a type? We could even, for the sake of clarity, since using the same word species which has a different meaning in logic and in biology, stop calling biological species "species" and start calling them "evolving units."

I feel like I am arguing about relativity with someone who refuses to accept the light-speed limit, and says that even a child can reject such an absurd tradition. An honest way to end this would be to list the specific points of mine with which you yourself either agree, disagree, or find unclear.

A man without a brain is not a man if he says that Steve's brain is his.

Ted
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 1/15, 6:48am)


Post 73

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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I would also be happy to call you by phone to discuss this matter directly, since I feel that with immediate feedback and direct communication, I should be able to explain myself to your satisfaction, rather than engaging in this unwieldy debate in serial fashion. We apparently do not share enough common premises to do so on line. Again, communicate to me in private. I should be available to do so some evening Weds or thereafter this week. I am on NY time.

Ted

Post 74

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Please forgive my brutal and blithe frankness. It's often the case in online discourse that I'm a little rough around the edges. I empathize with your attempts to reach out to me. The worst thing that can happen online is when you'd like someone to be "cooperative" and examine your view-point of the issue -- and the bastard just gives you the run-around. It's when one person's seeking truth, understanding, and progress -- but the other is seeking to "win battles."

Sometimes it helps to say more, to get more and more detailed about the issue at hand. I don't think that this is one of those times. Sometimes the details (actually, their mis- or dis-integration) can BE the problem. I see no way in which the Biological Species Concept (BSC) can be used in order to provide guidance in ethics. The BSC is great for studying evolution and zoology. We don't disagree about whether a species can be defined by interbreeding -- we disagree about whether that has anything at all to do with the principled attainment of human happiness.

Animal species are malleable populations. Big deal. There are many and varied differences among men. Big deal. Some men are sexually-attracted to men. Big deal. In fact, you could bring up a million differences between humans -- and it wouldn't fortify your position. Steve said it best ...

You said, "If we look at people through biology we see that as with many other species, they show varying types, each of which may have its own nature. Insisting on essence here is misleading and counterproductive. The deaf are a great example."

This is an ambiguity on the word nature. Yes the phenotypical and genotypical variations exist, but it doesn't change the fact that we have similarities – held as conceptual entities - forming a common nature. The commonalities we are interested in are specifically those of all humans. The aspect of human nature we are drawing upon for morality is the capacity of rationality (specifically and necessarily including choice) - not on other aspects of being human (eye color, deafness, blindness, etc.)
...
Talking of special cases, you said, "...who cannot be happy simply being told to live like "typical" rational humans." Here the mistake would be to accept that "live like a typical rational humans" is a valid understanding of a standard. The terms 'typical' with 'rational' only coincide by accident! It is the absence of a reasonable standard that lets people gets away with saying "You must behave like everyone else, or you are irrational or immoral."

Regarding all people who find themselves outside of "norms", and their having to find their happiness from the bottom up - we all have to do that. A good standard gives us enormous help - if we aren't using reason in some way, we are left trying to use emotions as tools of cognition and that doesn't work. If the chosen standard doesn't work for people who are outside of the norms, then there is a flaw in the definition of the standard.
Where's the flaw in the definition of the standard, Ted?

Ed


Post 75

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 10:27amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You said, "...Dawkins' "meme" is nothing more than the concept of "concept" repackaged and resold as if it were something new" quoting Mayr. I think he misspoke there.

Dawkins coined the term 'meme' at the end of "The Selfish Gene" and was just using it to illustrate the degree to which the theory of evolution can said to be universal - to work on things other than genes. He didn't appear to recognize the importance of memes till later.

Mayr was wrong in calling them 'concepts' because Dawkins formulation was something like this, 'smallest unit of mimicable behavior'. True, an idea - a concept - is the most important meme, but Dawkins was also thinking about the melody that a bird sings after hearing another sing it.

I think the concept of memes will be far more important than Dawkins ever imagined. But until I finish the book I'm working on, I can't say more in this area.

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Post 76

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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I think the concept of memes will be far more important than Dawkins ever imagined

I quite agree - and am pushing this within the aesthetic arena as part of the 'wholeness' of evolution, as well as furthering a return to reality oriented fine art....  will be interesting to see what you make of it...


Post 77

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I'd like to hear more about what you mean by 'wholeness' of evolution and about the relation to the 'aesthetic arena'.

My gut has long told me that art is underrated in the understanding of human development or history. And I've never heard anyone talk about art as a part of human evolution in a direct way (i.e., contributing in a necessary or even significant way to the casual events of human evolution) - yet the psychology of art would support looking that way.

It is like the history and understanding of human evolution is this long hall. After it all constructed someone comes along and hangs some pictures on the walls - chronologically correct in their location, but of no other consequence than to decorate.

I've also thought that artists have been so consistently marginalized through out cultures and time that there is something there to be examined.

Post 78

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 4:22pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I can agree with the content of the first two paragraphs of your last post.

Again, I'll refer everybody back to the opening post of this thread that asked if objectivism advocates men living in accordance with their natures, then what do we say to those whose natures are supposedly that of a serial killer or child molester.

My immediate response to that was that we might respond that it is our nature then to kill or imprison such people. This is a proper response in so far as it goes. But other posters either said that such people are irrational (perhaps, but what if it really IS their nature) or denied that men who are "rational beings" could so vary. But the definition does not determine the nature, it delineates the concept within a certain context. Given that a serial killer or a child molester still has a conceptual consciousness, he would fit under the definition, so simply quoting the definition begs the question.

Likewise, saying that "life" is the standard, but being unwilling to examine the differing natures of different people through the special sciences is not a sign of philosophical wisdom. It is the replacement of reality with dogma. Having memorized Rand's definitions and formulas is no substitute for observation and experiment. The "problem" with the standard is that "life" is vague and meaningless unless one fleshes out what it means. You say, some men like men, so what? So...they cannot be happy by pretending they like women when they don't. (This is not a personal issue, I would happily substitute deaf, or any of the other examples I have given.) Rand felt that such people were sick or irrational. It was simply obvious, Their values were irrational or anti-life, question answered case closed.

To say "so what?" is to beg the entire question of this thread.

Perhaps bringing up Mayr was a mistake, I hoped his concepts would be enlightening. I still hold that in so far as a person considers Man as a concept and not each man as a unique BIOLOGICAL entity his only recourse is to attempt some sort of top-down ethics where one must start with life as the prime value, and then try to justify why people should bother to do such things as eat. I think the only possible approach is a bottom up one. Babies don't need to be convinced that eating is good. This value is given by their nature through the pleasure of taste and a full belly. As people mature they learn of joys, (intellectual appreciation of the good) to replace mere pleasures (sensation of the good) and then they mature to seeking happiness, a lifetime of integrated joy. Only at this stage of maturity do they seek philosophy and self criticism to see why such things as theft and happiness are incompatible in the long run.

Some people also discover that they cannot be happy in the same way as others. This is not given. It cannot be deduced from "life is the standard" or "man is a rational animal." It must be found through observation, introspection, investigation and experiment. Merely parroting Rand won't get one their. Most people simply smuggle in their values and, in so far as they are typical values, or ones which Rand didn't disapprove of, they figure that they are virtuously following "life as the standard." This may be fine for many. It is not fine for the congenital deaf-mute who, for all of history until the 1770's was considered without reason and hence subhuman. It is not fine for the intersexual or homosexual or freak with Tourette's who thinks he must be doing something wrong. For centuries, if not millennia, these people have been seen as subhuman, cursed, possessed, or unworthy of or incapable of happiness, and it was not Objectivism which validated them. Should we tell them "so what?"

No, we should investigate, observe, experiment and introspect. How many people thought in the past that unless they smoked cigarettes they were not rational? How many people accept today Leonard Peikoff's assertion that homosexuality is sub-optimal, but "okay" for those who can't "give it up?" [Don't worry about me, I have always thought
myself to be super-optimal, :) ] That each individual's OWN happiness is his highest goal is a much more essential thing for all people to learn. Once they understand that they deserve happiness, one can explain how reason will let them find their happiness in accord with their own natures. But they will not find out what their natures are by starting with a floating concept of life. They must examine their own already existing values and then see how these may be integrated into what they will then see as their vision of their own lives.

Man does not have Life. Men have lives. That is so what.

Ted Keer

Post 79

Monday, January 15, 2007 - 4:32pmSanction this postReply
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On Dawkins' "meme" I myself would say that he repackaged the concept of idea, so far as humans are concerned. I don't see how birdsong will get copied by cats. Such non-human "memes" may be mimicked by men, who have ideas, or by the species in which they are found. The mockingbird and other natural mimics may copy the behaviors or appearances of their neighbours. But this does not get passed on culturally.

The proof is in the pudding. I am not going to make an a priori argument against the usefulness of the idea. But I am not going accept it as rigorous without a better definition than the smallest mimickable/replicable unit. I can copy a portion of the face of a dollar bill. Does this make it a meme? Ribosomes make copies of proteins from an original DNA template. Are proteins memes? To me this seems to be like accepting that there ideas without granting the primacy of the minds which carry those ideas, or a great big meaningless package deal.

Ted

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