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Post 20

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 4:20pmSanction this postReply
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Ah, the answer lies here.

Post 21

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 5:13pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote,
Just as Jesus preached that there were many mansions in his father's house, because he was an urbanized man living in a patriarchical society, Rand's view of man is that of a sophisticated urbanized creature, anything below which is a savage or a witch-doctor whose failure is due to a lack of focus. Biology to Rand seems to have meant birth control.
That's not true.

- Bill

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Post 22

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 5:15pmSanction this postReply
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I say either fry'em, or drop'em on the French.
No disagreement from me. I can't speak for "Ronco" Ed, however ;)


Post 23

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

Given that the sentence was stood on its own, the point was meant to be more rhetorical than literal. But Rand did not understand evolution, or seem to find it necessary to do so. Her view of species as reflections of an essential type and not as reproductive populations that vary over a wide spectrum without necessarily having even one entirely typical exemplar was thus flawed. (See Ernst Mayr on the essentialist fallacy in biological taxonomy.) And her default positions seems always to have been that whatever she liked or however she thought was ipso facto the norm or the ideal in a given circumstance. Now I am not one to shrink from a challenge. I have not only heard Pete's argument before, I have discussed it spontaneously with other Objectivists. Given that most of my friends and family are scientists by training or trade, I have chewed over this issue many times.

In any case, your "that" in "that's not true" is ambiguous.

Ted





Post 24

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 8:52pmSanction this postReply
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My answer in post 12 was addressed directly to Pete's original question as was Ed's in post #13. Yet even if what I said there makes us uncomfortable, the truth is that if people do indeed exist whose constitutions make them so incapable of happiness through the normal means that they are driven to kill then it is stil "right" for these serial killers and such to act on their natures. To some extent how they act is still open to them, as is our response up to us. While the effect is different, since ideally homosexuality is consensual, many homosexuals will resist their urges until late in life (after they have hurt themselves and perhaps many others) or will let their repressed natures drive them mad or to other perversions in societies where homosexual expression is forbidden, as in the tragic case of Alan Turing. The homosexual and the natural born killer are politically two different things altogether. But as variants on the heterosexual and eusocial norm, they are presumably analogous in many ways.

(If we object to using "right" here to mean act in accordance with one's nature, and to restrict it to mean acting in accordance with a euscoial nature, that is fine with me. But the facts to be described and explained remain the same.)

Now the would-be-killer may, we would hope, seek counseling or channel his energies into the military or some such aggressive or high-risk field. Unfortunately, many of these people become arsonist-firefighters, hitmen-police officers, nurse-poisoners, etc. Are we simply to scold them and say, "Now, now! you're being irrational see, it says so right here on page 973 of Atlas Shrugged...?"

(Be aware, one of the unspoken premises of the anarchist is that either he believes there are no such people with this nature, or perhaps he knows all too well that their are people with this nature.)

Of course we do not just point to the appropriate passages in Rand. We make it clear to all people from a young age that it is perfectly natural for us regular humans to stick these people on a spike outside the city gates once we catch them, and to let the vultures do the rest. If we were a more healthy and open culture, we might even screen out and divert such proto-monsters at a stage where both we and they might find a much happier solution.

The failure here is not a failure of rationality, which is a coherence of one's mind with reality. It is a "failure" of one's nature. This may be hard for law-abiding straight, monogamous, mild-mannered, civilzed, suburban, eusocial heterosexual folk to get. But cannibalistic and predatory atavisms can and do arise, probably genetically, environmentally and volitionally or as a combination of the three. While I myself shrink from initiating violence, once provoked, I do not back down. Most people I know run from violence or cower at the thought. The September 11th hijackers (who I have long suspected were probably both sexual and psycho-social monsters themselves) had this common passivity in mind as they planned. But just think if there had been a non-suicidal Hannibal Lecter or Bernie Goetz type on one of those flights, or just a well trained air-martial, who has essentially been taught how and when to act as a killer. The outcome could have been quite different.

Just as Jesus preached that there were many mansions in his father's house, because he was an urbanized man living in a patriarchical society, Rand's view of man is that of a sophisticated urbanized creature, anything below which is a savage or a witch-doctor whose failure is due to a lack of focus. Biology to Rand seems to have meant birth control.

History, anthropology, neurology, genetics, psychology, criminology, archaeology, ethology, primatology and biology all tell us that man's animal nature is not so far below the surface, and that if dealt the wrong circumstances or the wrong genes the eusocial nature that we imagine and hope is typical of all men simply does not always win out. By their natures, some men are not fit to get along with others, and no matter how many times we tell them to reread the Objectivist Ethics they are not going to get it. Actually, they very well may get it, but they will not chose the eusocial life as the one for them, just as we hopefully will choose to make them pay for their choice.

My saying this is no advocacy of subjectivism, it is a recognition of the cold, hard facts. Spend some time in prison and do some research if you like. Most serial killers and child molesters will freely admit that they deserve to be punished for their actions. It may be unfortunate for us that they sometimes get away with such actions for a long time before they get caught.

The proof of our rationality is what we do with them once we catch them.

I say either fry'em, or drop'em on the French.

Ted Keer, 11 December, 2006, NYC

Pictured are Uday and Qusay Hussein from freepressed.com

Edited for style and clarity, additions are in [brackets].

Post 25

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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I say either fry'em, or drop'em on the French.
No disagreement from me. I can't speak for "Ronco" Ed, however ;)
[Warning: I have now been 'encouraged' -- and that is often a dangerous thing]

Ever kill anyone? Ever push somebody in the back of your van to take them home in order to slice them up? Well, then this offer is meant for YOU, friend! That's right, an all-expense paid trip to beautiful La Sante, Paris, Never before has such an offer been made available to all who qualify! That's right! You don't have to do a damn thing but pack a single outfit! We've got it all covered, from the day you leave, to the day you ... er ... ah ... well, who KNOWS if you're ever coming back! so just pick up the phone now, and give us a call at 1-JUS-TIC-E4ME -- and we'll take care of the rest!

;-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 12/11, 9:55pm)


Post 26

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:09pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

=================
Her view of species as reflections of an essential type and not as reproductive populations that vary over a wide spectrum without necessarily having even one entirely typical exemplar was thus flawed.
=================

Am I to take that as an admission that you disbelieve in such things as 'natural kinds' (things that are so completely differentiated from all other things as to never have any 'borderline-case')? Another way to put this is: Is it possible for a rock to ever be a plant, or an animal? Or is it impossible (because of the kind of thing rocks are)?

Ed

Post 27

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 10:49pmSanction this postReply
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Natural Kinds

Ed,

It is a very technical matter, but it is possible to have two otherwise identical populations of animal that do not interbreed because one only comes into season in the spring and another in the fall. These populations might be in all other ways indistinguishable, yet would be considered separate species by the biological species definition. Likewise, while certain absolutely distinct populations of gull are found in Britain which never interbreed, they do each interbreed with their neighbors, one to the east over Siberia and one to the West over Greenland. It turns out that this ring continues across the arctic continuously, and so each "species" at each end is actually an extreme member of a long arc of one long chain-species.

To that extent, natural kinds in the natural world admit of borderline cases. Humans, however, are a discreet and unified enough population that taxonomically we are all Homo Sapiens sapiens. Nevertheless, The existence of types within species does occur, such as the worker versus the soldier caste of the ant which appear to belong even to different genera, yet belong to one species. Likewise dwarf males and normal males of one species of fish may differ in only one gene. The larger males go to sea and like the females bulk up and compete for mates at season. Yet the dwarf males never leave the spawning grounds, sneaking in as "juveniles" to fertilize the females at the expense of all who went to sea.

These distinctions can be discrete or continuous, essential or accidental, genetic or environmental. And to expect that such things cannot happen amongst men because we are rational is to commit the essentialist fallacy of substituting the essence for the concept. Whether rapists are biologically analogous to dwarf "juveniles" who spread their seed via deception and force rather than hard work and monogamy or whether human homosexuals or berserkers benefit their families in the way that worker ants and soldier ants benefit theirs is obviously a simplification but is nonetheless a subject open to investigation.

Outside of the realm of biology, the simple answer to your question is yes, natural kinds are real objective entities without a doubt, as for example one sees with electrons versus protons, quartz versus diamond, snowflakes versus raindrops, graphite versus coal, stars versus black-holes, and so on. Even then, hills and mountains are borderline cases.

Both I and Ernst Mayr are good Aristotelians, and in that we differ from Dawkins, a reductionist materialist (?ex-)Marxist and Stephen Gould, the late believer in selection above the level of the individual. None of this here proves that serial killers are a type or that eusociality as I call it isn't what biologists call among humans the "wild type" phenotype. That is, maybe all humans have a capacity for being child-molesters or serial-killers, or maybe only "mutants" do. Not belonging to either class, I cannot advise you of my introspective intuition. But knowing that I was aware of my bisexuality from age four, that I was never molested or raised in any weird circumstance, that I pass for straight to the shock of many whom I've told of my orientation (and to the shock of some few who thought I didn't like girls) I can believe that there are indeed people born with certain tendencies which the rest of us are correct to see as monstrous, but are incorrect to see as the product of bad premises.

Ted

This document has not been edited except for spelling. Not bad for 15 minutes, I hope.


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Post 28

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 11:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ed, [Re: #17]

The difficulty lies with whether or not you believe rights [as in:"ethics of rational self-interest ..."applies""] to be inherent. I believe that rights are earned. They are earned by every human who chooses not to prey on their fellow humans.

Ted, [Re: #24]

"The proof of our rationality is what we do with them once we catch them."

I would appeal to the rationality of would be killers by making the "frying" a well publicised event.

Post 29

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 7:48amSanction this postReply
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Nit-picking

Ted,

The existence of types within species does occur, such as the worker versus the soldier caste of the ant which appear to belong even to different genera, yet belong to one species.
Very interesting. I had not ever heard of 2 organisms being of the same species, but of different genera. This proposition, if it turns out to be true -- rather than merely your personal assertion -- would literally stand the whole science of taxonomy on its head. I will seek to validate this proposition about same-species-different-genera ants, Ted. And I would welcome your help in finding that evidence that supports it.

These distinctions can be discrete or continuous, essential or accidental, genetic or environmental.
Even though I'd like to talk at length about the first 2 listed dichotomies above, I predict great progress with regard to the last: With living organisms, NO distinction is "genetic [OR] environmental" -- organisms just being those things whose genomes constantly interact with and within their environment. Another way to say this is that, within the organismo-environmento complex, there's an interaction very much like a car collision, and the collision doesn't "reside" in either of the single cars.


the essentialist fallacy of substituting the essence for the concept
You apparently have a good point here; as "man" is most-definitely not "rationality" -- but instead these are 2 distinct things. The reason I still question whether you have a good point or not is because, while I understand the thinking error to which you allude -- I don't (yet?) understand where or when I might have committed it. I'd require either more clarity or precision for that. Apparently, your work -- on this one point -- is only half-done.

Whether rapists are biologically analogous to dwarf "juveniles" who spread their seed via deception and force rather than hard work and monogamy or whether human homosexuals or berserkers benefit their families in the way that worker ants and soldier ants benefit theirs is obviously a simplification but is nonetheless a subject open to investigation.

Investigate all you want. Go ahead and find "the good" in any and every unique instantiation of a species-type. Go ahead and "go empirical" on my ass (haven't I already "gone rational" on you?).

;-)

At any rate, it is my understanding that the burden of proof is on you -- the one making a claim that some members of a species might not have any shared, fundamental features with the other members of that same species. Or, more explicitly, that serial killers, even if members of homo sapiens sapiens, are "different" creatures.

None of this here proves that serial killers are a type or that eusociality as I call it isn't what biologists call among humans the "wild type" phenotype. That is, maybe all humans have a capacity for being child-molesters or serial-killers, or maybe only "mutants" do.
Well said.

... I can believe that there are indeed people born with certain tendencies which the rest of us are correct to see as monstrous, but are incorrect to see as the product of bad premises.
Interesting point. Being born with monstrous "tendencies." Tendencies that are not products of thought, but of "inheritedness." If found true, it might become right, or at least good, to imprison the decendents of felons and punish the child as the father, as is told in the Bible -- for 4, or 7, or inumerable generations (until we've "bred" the "criminality" out of them). Bear in mind that I believe that, by birth, infants do have discernable tendencies. No discernable difference in actuality, mind you, but a discernable difference in tendency that is proven by careful retrospection back through all of their life-moments.

But having this difference in tendency does not mean that we have a difference in potentiality -- potentiality just being that of which we were born capable, rather than that of which we are most likely, say statistically, to do.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/12, 8:01am)


Post 30

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

The difficulty lies with whether or not you believe rights [as in:"ethics of rational self-interest ..."applies""] to be inherent. I believe that rights are earned. They are earned by every human who chooses not to prey on their fellow humans.
While in general or broad agreement with the above, I'd prefer being more subtle than that. I do see "rights" as something "inherent" (we have them before we do anything substantial on earth), but the exercise of the rights that we have (because of the human potentiality with which we were born) is NOT inherent or intrinsic, if you will. When folks are in jail, they still have rights -- but many of their rights are not being allowed to be exercised by them. They don't get their rights back when they make parole, they get to exercise the rights they've always had (as beings with human potentiality).

No institution, be it judicial, legislative, executive -- or whatever -- has the power to grant or to take away an individual's rights.

Ed


Post 31

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

"No institution, be it judicial, legislative, executive -- or whatever -- has the power to grant or to take away an individual's rights."

Of course. That power is granted to each individual by the choices they make. Most importantly, the choice to treat other people as traders and not as prey. Which is simply the choice to live as a human being or as an animal.

With regards to a recent thread, could we consider "rights" as a "emergent property" of individuals in a trading (that is: truly human) society?

Post 32

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

With regards to a recent thread, could we consider "rights" as a "emergent property" of individuals in a trading (that is: truly human) society?
Using your initial wording, I would say that it is the 'exercise' of rights that is the "emergent property of individuals in a trading (that is: truly human) society." It's the contingent exercise of their inherent rights. Not even individuals have the power to grant or to take away their own individual rights, either by will or by action -- it's only the proper exercise of their rights that is contingent on circumstance.

Ed


Post 33

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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Explanatory, if Speculative, Perspective, in search of a Grant

In response to Ed, #29

(1) I said that they appear as if they belonged almost to different genera, not that they did.

(2) Add the qualifier primarily. Hairlessness can be genetic or environmental or both.

(3) Much of what we are discussing here should be addressed by me in book form, hence my reluctance to address you on similar topics in the past. I would refer you to Ernst Mayr's introductory What Evolution Is and then to his What Makes Biology Unique, his Systematics, and his Development for a full treatment of these issues. The last title is a history of the science which addresses the errors of essentialism at length and which can be applied once understood to Rand's theory of human nature as it is implied throughout her works.

(4) Your response for me to go empirical on your ass seems to be rhetorical. I make only the prima facie case that such phenomena do indeed occur in nature, and that a hormonal/genetic component in men cannot be ruled out. If you have a grant to offer, I will do all the research for you that you like.

(6) By inherited tendencies think of a tendency toward a sweet tooth or overeating. The Irish and the Amerinds of the US South West have a tendency toward sugar consumption and diabetes that is not chosen but which can be expressed or moderated given differences of environment and choice. The human mind is not an atomic singularity or an on/off switch or an either/or proposition but the most complex product of cause and effect, genes & environment & choice known to man. The brain is modular, multi-leveled, and multi-tracked. Someone may process visual information through two or three separate pathways. the phenomenon of blindsight, where a person cannot consciously see the qualia of things, but can still walk around without bumping into them, or can "guess" their qualities and react to things emotionally which he claims to be consciously unaware of is widely known and documented. Read Ramachandran, Sacks and Damasio on the subject.

The case of Phineas Gage is quite well known, and shows how anti-social, if not psychopathic behavior can be present even when our ability to reason through syllogisms is unimpaired.

That some people may be incapable of happiness no matter how focused or logical they can be, and that some people may be psychopaths by "nature" (either genetic or acquired) seems to be undeniable. Rand did admit of monsters and the exceptional case, and limited her ethical system reasonably to the usual and the healthy. But the specific premise of this string is "what about the abnormal, the unusual, the unhealthy?" The questions peter raised in his first post are indeed borderline cases, and one can answer that they are. One cannot sweep them under the rug and deny their existence entirely. My interest as someone who has studied such things for two decades, and who has lived a life far from the ivory tower, is to provide some explanatory, if speculative, perspective.

Ted Keer, 12 December, 2006, NYC

The five castes of one ant species are from www.pestcontrolcanada.com


Post 34

Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

"I would say that it is the 'exercise' of rights..."

Exercise of rights? Our basic "right" is to be left alone. The only thing we need to exercise is restraint. Leave others alone, they leave you alone. For the same reason very very few animal predators prey on humans. There are consequences.

Why do you prefer "Contingent on circumstances" over "contingent on actions"? How does this help the "inherent" over "conditional" rights argument?


Post 35

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 6:44amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Exercise of rights? Our basic "right" is to be left alone. The only thing we need to exercise is restraint.
You're completely correct in that what it is that is really needed in order to respect the rights of others is a 'lack of action' (ie. restraint). The natural Individual Rights are negative rights -- they are not rights TO something (eg. housing, medical care, etc); but rights FROM something (ie. freedom from coercion). When I say that someone's allowed to exercise their rights, I'm saying that are they are being left able to exercise their personal agency within a limited sphere of liberty (the limitation just being when they begin to infringe on another's rights).

Why do you prefer "Contingent on circumstances" over "contingent on actions"? How does this help the "inherent" over "conditional" rights argument?
In Galt's speech (p 229), Rand correctly said that "Rights are conditions of existence required by man's nature for his proper survival." And "conditions of existence" is a phrase which is more contingent on circumstances than any individual actions (though I admit that circumstances are those things which follow from the actions of all involved entities). To take the extreme opposite case (for analogy), one could say that rights are 'powers of liberty gained or lost with each successive individual human action.'

In this extreme case, one loses one's rights after doing anything 'wrong' (and one doesn't have any rights, until one has done something 'right'). In this extreme, in order to have rights, you can't just be a human being, you have to be 'being' a human. Side-stepping the issue of whether it can be fully-justified rationally, the danger is that once you screw up once, in one arena, you've lost ALL your rights! Without rights, say, because you stole a pair of jeans from Macy's, it's not morally wrong to kill you (because, after stealing jeans, you no longer have the right to your life). Now, if you only lose some of the exercise to your inherent rights, then the punishment can fit the crime and justice can prevail.

World-wide justice is another value that can be achieved (at least on paper) when rights are viewed as inherent, and only their 'exercise' is viewed as to be contingent on the circumstances one finds oneself within. Let me set this answer up with a quote from the 2nd edition of The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy ...

Human rights are still thought of as natural in the very broad sense of existing independently of any human action or institution. This explains how they can be used as an independent standard in terms of which to criticize the laws and policies of governments and other organizations.
So, in order for us to morally judge the inferiority of some governments to others, we have to think of other peoples as inherently having the same rights as we do. Now, sure, not everyone deserves to exercise their rights. For instance, there are literally millions of free-walking Muslims that "deserve" incarceration. But they deserve incarceration simply for violating others' inherent rights (mostly the inherent rights of women and children). It's not on the shoulders of the victims (in this case, the women and children) to act in a specific manner that would have allowed them to generate their individual rights by performing specific actions. Placing the burden on the victims in this manner is unjust.

Imagine a battery court case where the judge asked the battered wife: "But what did you do to 'deserve' it?" After all, if the woman had done something 'wrong' ...

;-)

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/13, 6:45am)


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Post 36

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 1:29pmSanction this postReply
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Ted wrote,
Just as Jesus preached that there were many mansions in his father's house, because he was an urbanized man living in a patriarchical society, Rand's view of man is that of a sophisticated urbanized creature, anything below which is a savage or a witch-doctor whose failure is due to a lack of focus. Biology to Rand seems to have meant birth control.
I replied,
That's not true.
Ted responded,
Given that the sentence was stood on its own, the point was meant to be more rhetorical than literal.
Ted, what kind of double talk is this -- "more rhetorical than literal"?! Either your statement is true or it isn't. If it isn't, then there was no justification for it. Then you say,
In any case, your "that" in "that's not true" is ambiguous.
Then let me clarify. Both your sentences are false. And they're cheap shots.

You write,
But Rand did not understand evolution, or seem to find it necessary to do so. Her view of species as reflections of an essential type and not as reproductive populations that vary over a wide spectrum without necessarily having even one entirely typical exemplar was thus flawed. (See Ernst Mayr on the essentialist fallacy in biological taxonomy.)
I don't know what you mean when you say that her view of species was "reflections of an essential type." Where has she said anything like that? Rand didn't view any particular species as being exemplified by an archetype, if that's what you're suggesting. It doesn't sound to me like you understand her epistemology.
And her default positions seems always to have been that whatever she liked or however she thought was ipso facto the norm or the ideal in a given circumstance.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Obviously, if she thought that a particular way of life was desirable, then she would have regarded it as an ideal. What's wrong with that?

- Bill

Post 37

Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 2:14amSanction this postReply
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Without first addressing the substance of my remarks on Rand and biology, I would first like to address my Jesus analogy.

I said:

"Just as Jesus preached that there were many mansions in his father's house, because he was an urbanized man living in a patriarchical society, Rand's view of man is that of a sophisticated urbanized creature, anything below which is a savage or a witch-doctor whose failure is due to a lack of focus. Biology to Rand seems to have meant birth control."

Consider only what I said about Jesus for the moment. Jesus was a Jew who believed nominally in an all-powerful supreme creator deity. Humans are fragile and parochial beings we live in homes, and for the most part in cities or other settlements. At the time of Jesus, most cities were in some way fortified if not otherwise isolated from harm. Jerusalem, in addition to being a walled city, the ofttimes political and post-Babylonian cultic capital of the Judean state, was also built on a hill.

The residence of a king might therefore naturally be seen as a mansion within this city, and given that it was the residence of a king, that mansion would be expected to showcase extravagant wealth appropriate to the status of a king.

Now, the creator of the universe, which at the time of Jesus was believed by most to be the earth, surrounded by a world ocean, and nestled under the dome of heaven across which the planets - which included the Sun and Moon transited, and outside of which shell perhaps existed some flame or light that shone through to us as the fixed stars, would, if he were just a man writ large, perhaps choose to live in some great mansion in some great city somewhere befitting his status.

This may seem naive to us who see God as an immanent or transcendent being as taught by believers nowadays. Why should a being who created the andromeda galaxy need a roof and four walls around him, or indeed a throne or a home at all? Was he afraid of barbarian invaders or inclement weather? But the church teaches that God is revealed to man in a way that man can understand him. We forgive this naive notion, even though, if he were divine and omniscient, one would think that at least Jesus would know better. Perhaps he was God incarnate talking down to mere mortals. Or perhaps he was a theologically unsophisticated charismatic ethical teacher who either did not know better, or did not trouble himself with the details in the way that a scholastic might, since he believed that the day of judgment was immanent, and it was more important to save souls than to study cosmology and theology.

Now, let us look at Rand and her view of ethics. Rand teaches that man's life is, and only life indeed could be the source of an objective ethics, since indestructible, nonvolitional and nonliving beings do not need values. She would have seen the problem with saying that God lives in a mansion with many rooms immediately.

Yet Rand's idea of life was not a biological idea based on an understanding of evolution, development, ecology, phylogeny, genetic variation, or the nature of species not as types with essences, but as populations that are reproductively isolated from other populations. Her concept of life was that of a philosopher who understands enough to define and differentiate the living from the non-living, but not as an expert on the nature of animal species qua animal species. Rand herself, when questioned about evolution, said that it seemed plausible, but that she did not know enough about it to make a pronouncement.

The only problem with this is that if one is going to make life the basis for one's ethics and is going to thus implicitly rely upon a biological theory of human nature for one's ethical system, one is going to have to understand at least the fundamentals of evolution in order to make any meaningful and rigorous statements about what life is or what man's animal nature is. This claim that life cannot be understood in any way beyond that of the pre-scientific is the central complaint of those (correct) scientists who claim that biology cannot be taught without reference to evolution. Indeed, nothing in biology can be integrated beyond a pre-scientific level without an evolutionary perspective.

And an evolutionary perspective requires that one understand that species are populations, which, if sufficiently isolated from their closest relatives, may be "defined" by specific traits, but that species themselves are not concepts. Specie in the biological sense is a concept, but a species itself is not a concept, but is a population. Taxonomic groups have phylogenies - family trees. But they do not have essences per se. This statement may seem wrongheaded to Aristotelians. But it is established biological science, an unquestioned consensus view since Ernst Mayr and other such as Julian Huxley elucidated what is called the Grand Synthesis of Darwinian evolution, Mendelian genetics and population ecology in the middle of the 20th century.

Thus, when Rand speaks of man's "essential" trait, she may be making a valid observation which holds in so far as Homo sapiens is a very well defined group far removed from its closest relatives, and it shares many innovative traits such as bipedality and relative hairlessness and a conceptual linguistic faculty that differentiate it radically from its closest relatives who are languageless quadrupeds covered in fur. But Homo sapiens is a species, not a concept. Triangle is a concept. If you have more or less than three sides and three angles, you are not a triangle. But if you can breed with or are the product of the breeding of other members of the population Homo sapiens, then whether you are an ancephalic pinhead or a dolicholcephalic genius, whether you are a trader, or a rapist, or a murderer, or a lunatic; whether you have no limbs, or six digits on each, you are a human. If you wish to differentiate between being a Man and being a human, one can do that as a philosophical position. But one cannot deny the humanity of Adolph Hitler, or Terri Schiavo, or Osama Bin Laden, or Ayn Rand on a biological basis.

Just as Jesus anthropomorphized God, Rand made humanity not a biological species, but a philosophical concept. Not recognizing this fact opens up her theory to criticisms from scientists as being abiological and from hostile philosophers as being naively equivocal. I agree in essence with her arguments as they apply to adult human persons of the eusocial type - a concept which I have alluded to, and which I shall address later. My criticisms are meant not to tear down what Rand wishes to build, but to fix the flaws in its foundations.

Ted Keer, 14 December, NYC

This post is written without editing except for spell check.

Post 38

Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
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"Homo sapiens is a species, not a concept."

Ted,

You're Darwinian take on man is frustrating. Your postulation that Rand was wrong to even make a concept out of 'humanity' is even more so. You appear to ignore the fact that man has reached a level of evolution wherein he has become an Intelligent Designer (of himself). Another way to say this, is that you appear to argue against the concept of a self-made soul. As a rebuttal to your point, let me quote myself; commenting on quotes from a scientific article on "lifes ten greatest inventions" from the New Scientist  ...

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"What's more, the brains of newborn humans are far less developed than those of newborn chimps, which means that our neural networks are shaped over many years of development immersed in a linguistic environment."
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Excellent point indicating the unique "plasticity" of human brains! This point also resonates quite well with the principles of Objectivism.

It also highlights the importance of development (a real-life "jungle boy"--artificially mentally retarded--may not ever conceptually "leave" the jungle!)


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In a sense, language is the last word in biological evolution. That's because this particular evolutionary innovation allows those who possess it to move beyond the realms of the purely biological. With language, our ancestors were able to create their own environment - we now call it culture - and adapt to it without the need for genetic changes.
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Rand would be smiling.

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/RoRScience/0064.shtml

Ted, if I had to choose a dominant factor (>50% of the outcome) in the variance in outcome of all human behavior -- from either 'nature' or 'nurture' -- I would choose nurture as the dominant factor explaining the variance in human behavior. Though I already have a clue to your answer, which would YOU choose?

Ed



Post 39

Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

I did not yet go into those issues at length. My preliminary post was only to acknowledge Bill and to explain my mansion allusion. I do indeed have criticisms of Rand but do not reject her overall reasoning. I just believe that human nature cannot be reduced to "rationality."

It will take some splainin, but "Man" is a concept, while Homo sapiens is a biological population which provides the referents for the concept Man.

As for nature versus nurture, nature provides, nurture develops and choice determines. Choice, in an adult, is the determining factor morally.

Except for the fact that my last post does not but scratch the surface of my biological arguments, is there anything in the post itself which is unclear or ambiguous, or of which anyone wants any further explanation?

Finally, I don't see how Darwinism can be either irrelevant to or a denial of Objectivism. It is simply a field which I believe has not been adequately addressed, and a field which absolutely must be addressed.

Ted

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