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Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 11:23pmSanction this postReply
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When debating ethics with non-Obectivists, be they religionists or relativists, one invariably comes to the question of rational self interest as an ethical system.  I would like to summarize a common argument I hear from the non-Objectivist that I call the "Objectivist serial killer" argument (you could call it the "Objectivist child molester" or "Objectivist animal torturer" argument as well). 

Basically, opponents say that if rational self interest is a guide to human behavior, then wouldn't it be possible in theory for a serial kiler to act in his rational self interest?  A serial killer who kills is acting within his nature; the desire to kill is so overpowering and such an engrained part of him that to do otherwise would be to act contrary to his nature.  He realizes that society would not tolerate him doing his acts in the open, so he does it in secret and avoids getting caught at all costs.  He maintains a facade with normal society, otherwise living legally and by the trader principle.  He gets to have his cake and eat it too: he gets to satisfy his burning desire to kill while still be able to enjoy the security of society and the other benefits of life (good food, art, productive work - whatever else it is that makes his life worth living).  In short, is this individual ultimately acting in his self interest?  I have to admit I see an argument for 'yes'.  If the answer is yes, then isn't rational self interest a poor guide to action to impart upon society at large?

If I'm missing something or failing to integrate here, please let me know.  I get hung up on debates when this kind of questions pops up.


Post 1

Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 11:42pmSanction this postReply
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rational
?????????

Does that word mean anything to the askers??

Compulsions aren't "rational."  Compulsions to do harm are most definitely irrational.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 12/09, 11:44pm)


Post 2

Saturday, December 9, 2006 - 11:47pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

... if rational self interest is a guide to human behavior, then wouldn't it be possible in theory for a serial kiler to act in his rational self interest?
It's not possible for a serial killer to be acting in his self interest. This is because of the nature of man. You, yourself, admit that "society" wouldn't 'go for it'. And there is a very good reason for that. A reason that is not "contingent" but "ultimate" or "necessary" -- if you will. The reason that no folks, whatsoever, accept the behavior of serial killers -- is because it is a net-destructive behavior. You can argue until you are blue in the face that the serial killer's "whims" are being "met" by the serial killing -- but this does not change the fact of reality regarding the net-negative objective value of his behavior.

Humans are "meant" to be productive, not destructive (like serial killers are). And this is a timeless truth that is not "up for debate." Not when so much is already known about how humans can survive well on earth. Not when so much is known about how humans can earn their own self-respect. Serial killing is not a viable option for living well on earth, period.

Ed


Post 3

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:06amSanction this postReply
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Teresa writes:

Compulsions aren't "rational."  Compulsions to do harm are most definitely irrational.

But compuslions aren't chosen, either.  From the little that I've read on the pyschological research that's been done on people who kill for pleasure, they absolutely can't change that inclination about themselves. 

So, as I see it, a person with serial killer type inclinations is faced with the following choices:

A.  He can committ suicide

B.  He can seek professional help.  This will almost certainly land him in a mental institution for the rest of his life.

C.  He can act on his desires and do his best to avoid getting caught. 

D.  He can choose not to act on his desires and try to repress his true nature.

Now I'm not sure that D is even an option for these types given what I've skimmed of the psychological research on the subject, but I'm willing to be corrected on that by someone more knowledgeable on the topic.  So assuming that A through C are his only options, then couldn't C arguably be said to be contextually in the individual's "rational self interest"? 


Post 4

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:29amSanction this postReply
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Pete,

So assuming that A through C are his only options, then couldn't C arguably be said to be contextually in the individual's "rational self interest"? 
What part of my answer (above) to this question didn't you understand? I'll gladly explain further -- if you require that.

Ed


Post 5

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:46amSanction this postReply
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to repress his true nature
An aberration is not a true nature...


Post 6

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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But compuslions aren't chosen, either. 
I totally disagree. I know popular psychology makes this claim, but I think they're full of shit.  There is no "murder" gene that abdicates them from the rest of us, like being left handed over right. All deliberate actions are the result of deliberate conscious choice. He can either think, or choose to avoid that effort, as Rand said. 

To claim moral neutrality for the serial killer because he didn't choose to be that way is the height of intellectual dishonesty to me. What a horrible, destructive waste of research power. A disgusting display of giving up.

D.  He can choose not to act on his desires and try to repress his true nature.
Well, there ya go! ;)  But "repress his true nature" seems like more than a stretch to me. He's human, and human's have a common nature that does not include mass murder. Human beings never could have come this far if it were. Serial killers are massive evaders, perfectly capable of NOT killing.  You're basically saying such people repress evil, as if were some kind of natural behaviour coming from some organic source. But it's not.  The source is purely intellectual. I don't buy the pop psych rhetoric.


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Post 7

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

Picture a man who held an "interest" (a "self interest") in self-mutilation. This man having a "desire", "compulsion" or "inclination" -- if you will -- to surgically remove a couple pounds of flesh from himself, every day. In less than a few weeks, he will cease to exist, having surgically removed too much of his body for his own continued existence. Now, let's re-apply your questions and look for underlying logic ...

====================
So, as I see it, a person with [daily surgical removal] type inclinations is faced with the following choices:

A.  He can committ suicide

B.  He can seek professional help.  This will almost certainly land him in a mental institution for the rest of his life.

C.  He can act on his desires and do his best to avoid [death for a week or 2]. 

D.  He can choose not to act on his desires and try to repress his [current, self-destroying desire].
====================

A. This choice won't do. He's already committing suicide by his behavior, so this choice is not a logical alternative to the default choice.

B. This choice might do. Indeed, if he seeks professional help, then he might even actually get to HAVE a "rest of his life" (beyond the next week or 2).

C. This choice won't do. Not if morality is something informing folks how to live well on earth.

D. This choice seems best. If he chooses to use his rational mind to see the folly in his irrational desire.

Note how I made use of the phrase "irrational desire" in D above. Now, this does not mean that I believe that there is no such thing as a "rational desire." Just as Rand said that even "art" can be rational, or irrational -- so too, can "desire." Much of her argument on art (in the Romantic Manifesto, for instance) can be extrapolated from art to psychology.

Does my analogy help (does it provide more clarity than obfuscation)?

Ed


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Post 8

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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It just dawned on me that I could have avoided the odd, 'daily-surgical-removal' analogy and just said that the man had the "desire" to constantly play Russian Roulette (in his free time). Of course, with Russian Roulette, his expected lifespan is not so definite -- it's more of a gamble -- but even so, I think that the underlying logic can still be applied:

If your desire is for something that will most-likely ruin your life (and perhaps within a week or 2 -- if not the very next time that you pull the trigger!), then your happiness will hinge on your ability -- perhaps with professional help -- to diminish the hold that this desire has on your psyche. In short, you are going to have to stop acting like a 2-year old (2-year olds believe that their un-validated desires are of paramount metaphysical importance, but rational adults don't).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/10, 1:34pm)


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Post 9

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 3:00pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

Your question reminds of the kind of border-line, life-boat examples that ethical skeptics are fond of giving, which have very little if any relevance to normal, everyday life. The kind of serial-killer psychology that you offer as a counter-example to rational self-interest is so rare in human nature that, as a practical matter, it scarcely bears worrying about.

But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that a person did in fact have this kind of psychology, was aware of it and was also ethically sensitive enough to consider it an issue that needed to be addressed. What should the person do? You've given four possible alternatives:

A. He can commit suicide.
B. He can seek professional help. This will almost certainly land him in a mental institution for the rest of his life.
C. He can act on his desires and do his best to avoid getting caught.
D. He can choose not to act on his desires and try to repress his true nature.

Let's agree to rule out A.

As for B, I don't see that seeking professional help would have the results you claim. If he had such a desire (the desire to kill others), but had yet to act on it and simply sought professional help, why would he be consigned to a mental institution for the rest of his life? I'd say that B is the best alternative.

It think it goes without saying that acting on the desire is not in his rational self-interest. By doing that, he destroys any chance of improving his psychology and of leading a normal life. He also forfeits any right to his own life. If it's ethical for him to violate other people's right to life when it satisfies his desires, then it's ethical for others to violate his right to life when it satisfies their desires. Is this the kind of world he would like to inhabit -- a Hobbsian war of all against all? Is that kind of world in his rational self-interest? I don't think so.

No, his best alternative is to try to get to the root of his desires, rehabilitate them and live a normal life. He may never have the desires of a completely normal person, but he can learn to control them and to live a much better life than he would if he acted on those desires. Alcoholics never overcome their craving for alcohol entirely, but many alcoholics live with that desire and never take another drink. Why? Because they realize that it's in their rational self-interest to stay sober.

Also, if this objection is intended as an argument against an ethics of self-interest, then it fails in any case, because if it were in one's rational self-interest to murder others, there could be no argument against it. What would be the argument? That it's against the interest of others? Why should you care about the interest of others, if they're not connected to your own? The answer is: you shouldn't. So, whatever its implications, ethical egoism is unassailable.

Fortunately, human beings are not irrational animals who survive best by preying off of each other. Their self-interests are best achieved by cooperation --i.e., by mutual trade to mutual benefit -- not by mutual sacrifice to mutual destruction.

- Bill

Post 10

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for the feedback everyone.  I realize I opened up a can of worms with this topic, but I had been observing a debate on Objectivism  on a myspace forum the other day and this issue came up.  It has also come up in debates with non-Objectivist friends of mine and I found myself arguing in circles without creating a good bedrock on which standard of rational self interest could be based.

Ed,
Regarding your post #2, I don't think you can necessarilly say that someone with an unchosen psychological craving for pleasure killing would view a killing as a net-negative value.  Value is determined by the valuer, and while among normal rational people like us it's impossible to see nothing but destruction and negativity in a brutal murder, some sort of psychological value is likely being gained by person comitting the acts.

Robert,
If an abberation is not a "true nature", then what was Jeffrey Dahmer's true nature?

Teresa,
I am not claiming that a serial killer is morally neutral.  The issue in question is whether someone with a psychological predisposition to killing for pleasure can act within his rational self interest while in effect being a killer.  Of course, the question begged is whether there is any sort of "psychological predisposition" for such individuals to begin with.  I think there is still much left unkown in this area.. 

Bill,
You are correct in that the opponents in this debate were ethical skeptics.  Anytime you declare an absolutist point of view, such as Objectivism, there will be people who immediately zero in on the extreme scenarios to test the principles.  These are often fair questions to ask. 

As for your the remainder of your reply, I suppose it's fair to say that it's not a given that someone would go to an institution, but it's my understanding that therapists are required by law to turn someone over to proper authorities if they believe he's going to cause harm to someone.  I suppose it depends on the person in question.  

That's all I have to add for now, hopefully I can find time to address any unturned stones in the next couple days. 


Post 11

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 8:28pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

Ed,
Regarding your post #2, I don't think you can necessarilly say that someone with an unchosen psychological craving for pleasure killing would view a killing as a net-negative value.  Value is determined by the valuer, and while among normal rational people like us it's impossible to see nothing but destruction and negativity in a brutal murder, some sort of psychological value is likely being gained by person comitting the acts.
"Value is determined by the valuer ..."

This is a common interpretation of Rand. That values are "open" to each person's esthetic desires or whims. I mean, hell, if they are acting to gain or keep something, then they are valuing it -- right?? Seems pretty cut and dry on the surface, but it (ie. Objectivism) is not so simple as vulgar hedonism. Here's Rand on the matter (from Ayn Rand Answers: The Best of her Q & A) ...

Question:
Do you agree with the widespread philosophical idea that means alone are chosen by reason, while ends are chosen irrationally?

Rand:
No! I reject the evil idea that choosing ends by reason is impossible. It has destroyed ethics. Everything that I have written is devoted to proving the opposite. Ends are not chosen irrationally. We choose our ends by reason, or we perish. ...

Question:
In an earlier answer to a question, you accuse of context dropping the person who says: "I'm going to cheat my aunt out of her money, and then spend it on a library and devote the rest of my time reading and thinking, which is in my self-interest." What context is he dropping?

Rand:
He is dropping several contexts, primarily that his self-interest is not determined by whatever he feels like doing. To determine one's rational self-interest, one must include all the relevant elements involved in a decision. The first contradiction he would encounter is the idea of robbery. He cannot claim self-interest if he does not grant this right objectively to his aunt. If he decides to follow his own self-interest but to respect nobody else's, he is no longer on an objective moral base, but on a hedonistic, whim-worshipping one. If so, he has disqualified himself; he is claiming a contradiction. If he wants to maintain rationally his own self-interest, and claim he has a case for his right to his self-interest, then he must concede that the ground on which he claims the right to self-interest also applies to every other human being. ...

Question:
Under Objectivism, what would be your social responsibility toward other people?

Rand:
... You would be responsible for any harm you do to other people. ... You would have no right to pass on to others the burden or consequences of your mistakes or failures or whims. In other words, you cannot make other men your victims, and you need not be their victim. ... But it's not good to help someone who is suffering as a result of his own evil. If you help him, you are sanctioning his immorality, which is evil.

Question:
Is it all life or one's own life that one is morally bound to preserve? Suppose a conflict arises between one's own life and happiness, and that of others. What should one do? For instance, should I let the whole nation go down in ruins rather than give up my own life?

Rand:
The moral obligation to maintain one's life does not mean survival at any price. Only one's life is a primary moral obligation--if you want to call it that--because it's the only life over which you have control, the only life you can live, the only life for which ethics gives you guidance. For the same reason that you should value your own life, you should value human life as such. ...

As for the last part of your question: Metaphysically, we are never put in a position where the life of a whole nation depends on the sacrifice of one man. If that occurred (outside of collectivist fiction), we would be living in a different universe, and so the rules of our existence would be different. ...

Question:
Does a person have to be strong (as opposed to weak) to be selfish?

Rand:
No. This is one of the fallacies of today's prevalent morality, altruism, which holds that man must sacrifice himself to others--that service to others is the moral justification of one's life. This creates the idea that it takes a special strength to live by the judgment of your own mind. But, in fact, all it takes is honesty, whatever your level of intelligence or ability. ...


Question:
If an individual thug is stronger than other men, or a national government is stronger than other people, wouldn't reason make them resort to violence?

Rand:
Reason involves knowing the nature and the consequences of your actions, and of knowing where your rational self-interest lies. Reason does not mean you can arbitrarily decide that whatever you want is in your self-interest. Some men do this, but that doesn't mean it's rational. To go by reason is not to be guided by emotions or whims. ...

... Anything man wants or needs must be produced; man must possess knowledge in order to produce it; reason provides that knowledge. Once you know that, if you then decide you don't want to exist by means of reason and production, but by means of muscle instead--since you're physically strong, you prefer to rob or enslave somebody else--you are contradicting the only base on which you could have any justification for your existence. You are guilty of the most irrational contradiction. The only grounds on which you can claim the right to your own life are the same grounds that support the right to life of every human. If you claim an exception or double standard, you cannot defend it by reason.

Moreover, a man of self-esteem does not want the unearned: he doesn't want anything from others that he must obtain by coercion-- by crime or by government force and regulation. ... But no rational person would decide that it's in his self-interest to rob and murder, because he knows that others will and should answer him by the same means.

As for this issue of the level of nations, rationally selfish people do not start wars. Historically, who started them? Woodrow Wilson, a humanitarian reformer, led America into World War One to make the world safer for democracy. Franklin Delano Roosevelt pushed this country into World War Two to save the world and bring everyone the Four Freedoms. In both cases, the state of the world after those wars was infinitely worse than it was before, in precisely those aspects that the humanitarians wanted to correct.

Question:
You say the predominant trend of nineteenth-century intellectuals was collectivist and statist. But didn't Nietzsche advocate individualism? What's your estimate of him?

Rand:
... Nietzsche was a subjectivist and an irrationalist. ... Now there is no greater contradiction than a subjectivist calling himself an individualist. An individualist is a man who thinks independently. A subjectivist is a man who does not care to think--who wants to be guided by feelings and "instincts." To survive, such a man must be a parasite on the thinking of others. An "individualist parasite" is a contradiction in terms.

Question:
Do you oppose young people being concerned with the welfare of others?

Rand:
Taken broadly, yes. ... Every man should be concerned with himself and with his development into the kind of human being fit to live in a society with others.

Pete, do you now see why serial killers can't possibly be acting in their own (rational) self-interest?

Ed


Post 12

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:08pmSanction this postReply
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I totally disagree with all the standard answers given here.

The serial killer or child molester must realize that his nature conflicts with the eusocial nature of most of humanity. He may chose to sublimate his nature by volunteering to serve as a military sniper, or by having sex with midgets who resemble children. Or he may attempt to live out his drives. If he does so, he should expect that we as eusocial humans will most likely kill him if we get the chance. Unless of course the bleeding hearts decide to jail and then release them. Most serial killers and child molesters will admit that if freed they will act again. Trying to argue these monsters out of their natures if they themselves will not make the utmost effort (if possible) to change themselves is pointless (One might as well reason with al q@ida.)

I once read a short story about a vampire who used his abilities to rob criminals, and who then used the loot or reward money he gained to buy donated blood. The vampire did not need to kill to get what he needed. Saying to the psychopath that following their own natures is not in their own rational self interest is begging the question. They simply do not belong to the same species as us, and while there are no conflicts of interest between humans, these beasts are not human. It is our nature to exterminate them.

Ted Keer, 11 December, 2006, NYC

Post 13

Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 11:56pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Basically what you are saying is that most, if not all, people who are serial killers (or child molesters) -- were "born" that way. It's a nature OVER nurture argument. My problem with this argument is the same as Rand's would have been -- a problem with the idea that "humans" aren't (mostly, at least) self-made souls. Another way to say this is that some folks are "born" to live much "differently" than some of the rest of us are. In this respect, you sound a little bit Nietzschean, Ted.

I'm curious, Ted: What do you think of Nietzsche?

Ed


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Post 14

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 3:48amSanction this postReply
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I agree with every single thing Ed said, pointed out, and opined.

Pete wondered:

Of course, the question begged is whether there is any sort of "psychological predisposition" for such individuals to begin with.  I think there is still much left unkown in this area.. 
There may be, and I certainly wouldn't argue against such predispositions. What I would argue against is that human beings are helpless against those predispositions.

I would argue that giving up to unknown desires is morally inferior to working toward known, life serving desires.  There is nothing to be gained by killing others, other than, perhaps, a fleeting emotional reward. Emotional rewards alone are not the purpose to be served.  They are not a life sustaining end.

To argue that they are, and do, is subjectivism proper.


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Post 15

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

We are talking about adults. There are some adult "humans" who lack the capacity for reason and have inhuman appetites. I agree with Ted:

"..these beasts are not human. It is our nature to exterminate them."

If you find an infant you suspect may grow up to be a serial killer you are welcome to "nurture" him away from it.

Post 16

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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It kind of does not matter if the serial killer is that way by nature or not.  The actual question when looking at ethics is how do most of us act?  How do you and I act?  Not how do monsters act - if we were all monsters like this, there would not even be a discussion about ethics to begin with.  So the answer is, for the rest of the 99.999% that are not serial killers we will fry the bastard when we catch him, simple as that.  No disagreement with anyone there, except maybe on life in prison vs. death penalty - what is the next case?  There is no dilemma, because we are not this person, and if we are, we know no one else is and that the end result of our actions is likely to be that prison cell or a death sentence. 

Post 17

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

There are some adult "humans" who lack the capacity for reason and have inhuman appetites.
What I was trying to address was whether Randian ethics "applies" to the serial killers (as to the rest of us). This was Pete's original question -- what should the killers do? Exempting serial killers (or child molesters) from 'normal human agency' limits the scope of Randian ethics and the dangerous thing to do next would be to hop on the slippery slope and argue that the ethics of rational self-interest only "applies" to the very best among us (ie. to the wholly-integrated, persistently-rational men).

It's funny. I mean, these guys have the rationality to continue to show up for work, to pay the bills, and to often trick others into trusting them, but then when it comes to them being "guided by feelings and 'instincts'" -- THEN they get a "pass" (even though, in effect, their "pass" is actually them getting kicked out of "human kind"). Rational ethics doesn't apply to them, because some part of their life isn't governed by rationality, because part of their character is irrational (and heinous, I agree).

And if you're imperfect, rational ethics doesn't apply to you. Instead, a "new" ethics applies to you. It's a new one that is unique to you! That's right! A whole new set of principles unique to your unique tastes, desires, and compulsions! Wow! Could it get any "better" than that?? I mean, ALL you have to do is to be YOU (the exact way you are now!) -- and this "morality" instantly applies! So sign-up today, for the morality that doesn't actually require any thought on your part! It's fast, easy, and fun! Our Simply Subjectivist operators are standing by the phones and waiting to take your calls. Get out your credit cards folks because, for just 12 easy payments of $99.95, you get instantly and completely exonerated as the exact kind of person that you are NOW! Never before has this offer been made at such a low price. Act now. Time is running out on our supply of Instantaneous Pride and Esteem kits. Don't let this "deal" pass you by!

;-)

Ed


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Post 18

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 11:11amSanction this postReply
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I have revised this essay extensively, and reposted it as #24. Be aware that Teresa and Bills comments in 20-22 were to the original text of this post which has been expanded and rearranged but not expurgated.

Ted
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 12/11, 8:35pm)


Post 19

Monday, December 11, 2006 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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Ted.

Whom are we now seeing in your latest picture? Is that you from a few years ago, or is it someone else? I'm beginning to think that, like Dorian Grey's, your picture has taken on a life of its own. :-)

- Bill

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