About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Forward one pageLast Page


Post 100

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 8:48amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
(Bill Matney)^2,

Here's a follow-up response ...

===========================
 J Nutr. 2003 Nov;133(11 Suppl 2):3932S-3935S.

Nutritional importance of animal source foods.

Cancer Research Center of Hawaii, University of Hawaii, Honolulu, HI 96813, USA. suzanne@crch.hawaii.edu

 

Animal source foods can provide a variety of micronutrients that are difficult to obtain in adequate quantities from plant source foods alone. In the 1980s, the Nutrition Collaborative Research Support Program identified six micronutrients that were particularly low in the primarily vegetarian diets of schoolchildren in rural Egypt, Kenya and Mexico: vitamin A, vitamin B-12, riboflavin, calcium, iron and zinc. Negative health outcomes associated with inadequate intake of these nutrients include anemia, poor growth, rickets, impaired cognitive performance, blindness, neuromuscular deficits and eventually, death. Animal source foods are particularly rich sources of all six of these nutrients, and relatively small amounts of these foods, added to a vegetarian diet, can substantially increase nutrient adequacy.

 

Snacks designed for Kenyan schoolchildren provided more nutrients when animal and plant foods were combined. A snack that provided only 20% of a child's energy requirement could provide 38% of the calcium, 83% of the vitamin B-12 and 82% of the riboflavin requirements if milk was included. A similar snack that included ground beef rather than milk provided 86% of the zinc and 106% of the vitamin B-12 requirements, as well as 26% of the iron requirement. Food guides usually recommend several daily servings from animal source food groups (dairy products and meat or meat alternatives). An index that estimates nutrient adequacy based on adherence to such food guide recommendations may provide a useful method of quickly evaluating dietary quality in both developing and developed countries.

 

PMID: 14672292 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

===========================

 

 

 

===========================

J Nutr. 2003 Nov;133(11 Suppl 2):3941S-3949S.

Animal source foods improve dietary quality, micronutrient status, growth and cognitive function in Kenyan school children: background, study design and baseline findings.

Department of Community Health Sciences and Pediatrics, Schools of Public Health and Medicine, University of California, Los Angeles, CA, USA. cneumann@mednet.ucla.edu

 

A previous longitudinal three-country study in Egypt, Kenya and Mexico found significant positive associations between intake of animal source foods (ASF) and growth, cognitive development and physical activity. To test for a causal relationship, a controlled school feeding intervention study was designed to test the hypotheses that ASF would improve micronutrient status, growth and cognitive function in Kenyan primary school children. Twelve rural Kenyan schools with 554 children were randomized to four feeding interventions using a local vegetable stew as the vehicle. The groups were designated as Meat, Milk, Energy and Control, who received no feedings. Feeding was carried out on school days for seven terms during 21 mo. Preintervention baseline measures included nutritional status, home food intake, anthropometry, biochemical measures of micronutrient status, malaria, intestinal parasites, health status and cognitive and behavioral measures.

 

The measurements of each child were repeated at intervals over 2 y. Baseline data revealed stunting and underweight in approximately 30% of children and widespread inadequate intakes and/or biochemical evidence of micronutrient deficiencies, particularly of iron, zinc, vitamins A and B-12, riboflavin and calcium. Little or no ASF were eaten and fat intake was low. Malaria was present in 31% of children, and hookworm, amebiasis and giardia were widely prevalent. The outcomes measured were rates of change or increase during the intervention in cognitive function, growth, physical activity and behavior and micronutrient status. Hierarchical linear random effects modeling was used for analysis of outcomes.

 

PMID: 14672294 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

===========================

 

 

 

 

===========================

J Nutr. 2005 Oct;135(10):2372-8.

Long-term consumption of a raw food diet is associated with favorable serum LDL cholesterol and triglycerides but also with elevated plasma homocysteine and low serum HDL cholesterol in humans.

Dietary Fibre and the Metabolic Syndrome Group, German Institute of Human Nutrition, Potsdam-Rehbruecke, D-14558 Nuthetal, Germany. koebnick@mail.dife.de

 

High consumption of vegetables and fruits is associated with reduced risk for cardiovascular disease. However, little information is available about diets based predominantly on consumption of fruits and their health consequences. We investigated the effects of an extremely high dietary intake of raw vegetables and fruits (70-100% raw food) on serum lipids and plasma vitamin B-12, folate, and total homocysteine (tHcy). In a cross-sectional study, the lipid, folate, vitamin B-12, and tHcy status of 201 adherents to a raw food diet (94 men and 107 women) were examined. The participants consumed approximately 1500-1800 g raw food of plant origin/d mainly as vegetables or fruits.

 

Of the participants, 14% had high serum LDL cholesterol concentrations, 46% had low serum HDL cholesterol, and none had high triglycerides. Of raw food consumers, 38% were vitamin B-12 deficient, whereas 12% had an increased mean corpuscular volume (MCV). Plasma tHcy concentrations were correlated with plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations (r = -0.450, P < 0.001), but not with plasma folate. Plasma tHcy and MCV concentrations were higher in those in the lowest quintile of consumption of food of animal origin (P(trend) < 0.001). This study indicates that consumption of a strict raw food diet lowers plasma total cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations, but also lowers serum HDL cholesterol and increases tHcy concentrations due to vitamin B-12 deficiency.

 

PMID: 16177198 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

===========================

 

Ed


Post 101

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

Where do you find all of these studies? Google? Studies found on the internet are probably a poor reason to gobble down Big Macs in the name of philosophical triumph.
(Edited by Dustin
on 8/27, 8:58am)


Post 102

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dustin,

Your level of argument consists of childish evasions.

Ethan


Post 103

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Alright, then I heed. I am not post modern nor pseudo intellectual enough to prove that my diet is the true rational way to eat. However, I don't walk away from this argument with nothing. I've basically documented all the points of view here. While I've found a lot of it to be just "philosophical" rambling, I've actually got some point of view. Vegetarianism threatens those in the meat generation, for sure.
(Edited by Dustin
on 8/27, 9:25am)


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 104

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Standards are made by the best, not the worst examples of any given entity.

No - they are made by the essence of any given entity - the best can be as abberant as the worse....


Post 105

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Vegetarianism threatens those in the meat generation, for sure.

No - the coersiveness of those expounding it do.......


Post 106

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
No - they are made by the essence of any given entity - the best can be as abberant as the worse....
So a standard is set by an entity's essence. Does an entity's essence contain potentials?  Or is it just the average characteristics of a particular existent entity, like DNA?  Cranium size, but not capacity, etc.?  Is it anthropological? What is it?


Post 107

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Good point, Bill. One of the healthy changes I've made since talking to you (wondering if YOU'VE made any healthy changes -- since being exposed to my rationally-compelling evidence) -- is to consume more foul, and less beef.
Is the domesticated fowl you're eating comparable in fat to the wild game that early man consumed? I'd be surprised if it were.

As for making any dietary changes myself, I've been trying to minimize my consumption of simple carbs, such as the sugar in all the frozen dairy deserts I was eating, and that includes milk sugar. As you know, galactose can contribute to the onset of cataracts. In India, people who don't consume milk (but only yogurt) do not get cataracts, whereas the milk drinkers get them. The galactose is the culprit. As people get older, they don't metabolize this sugar as efficiently as they did when they were younger, and it can contribute to the onset of senile cataracts.The reason for the less efficient metabolism is that the aging human body produces less galactokinase, which is an enzyme that helps metabolize the galactose, with the result that there is a greater accumulation of galactitol in the lens.

There is also evidence that vitamin C, especially with the addition of bioflavonoids can protect the lens against the development of cataracts. So, I'm taking more C than I used to. At my age, 66, I have to be especially vigilant in these matters.

And I've also become more aware of the importance of fruits and vegetables as a means of offsetting the acid-producing grains that I typically eat on the Pritikin diet. Before talking to you, I didn't know that grains could be as acid-producing (and therefore as calcium draining) as they are, although the sulfur-containing amino acids in animal protein (e.g., cysteine and methionine) are more acidic than those in vegetable protein, aren't they?

Still, I think that my diet is a good one, as it has produced excellent results in terms of markedly lower blood pressure and LDL cholesterol. As Pritikin points out, HDL is not so important if your LDL is low. With an LDL of 100 or less, you don't have to worry about HDL.

- Bill

Post 108

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"The real bottom line is that they "should," not that they "don't." A defective human being may act as less than a fully functioning one, but it still acts according to it's nature as a human being.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So now you are combining a "should" with a "does," and without defining the "nature" of a human being.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Such individuals can't sprout wings and fly, for example, or develop gills to breath underwater.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

These are things that humans do not/can not do. These are not the nature of humanity.


Concerning "ethics" as an applied evolution of adaptative sensory integrative processes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No. Ethics are a set of principles that help to guide choices. A rat isn't guided by a code of ethics. It's guided by a given environment and perceptions to that environment, and hardwired responses to those perceptions, which are outside of a rat's choice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I find it highly dubious to consider the human animal to exist outside of its controlled system. I also find it highly dubious to consider that the non-human animal does not evolve or learn. This is not only why your "metaphysical" explanation didn't fly by me, it's why I question it. I'm not worried about what you think is "out there."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A healthy rat isn't even close to a severely retarded human being, who still has some ability to choose and acquire values.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Proof's in the pudding, Teresa. You can't provide a "larger picture" until you demonstrate this in every case of animal and non-human animal. Having interacted with both on a personal level, I can very acknowledge that my cat demonstrates a larger spectrum of choices, reactions, behavioral responses, and resultant adaptations to stimuli than children I have worked with. I maintain that "ethics," "values," "principles," "sapiency," and so on, are contingent upon contexts within actual existence.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Then you're disinterested in human life, and have little to offer it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Or perhaps it means that my interests are more than just a black and white perspective of such....your obtuse judgement is irrelevant.

Post 109

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed,

Thank you for the references.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 110

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dustin,

Please take the following with respect and consideration. It's difficult and time consuming enough for me to engage three or four people, each with varying oppositional takes, without you flaming things up. I'm trying to play a chess game and you are standing behind me throwing fire at people ;-). If it's frustrating for you, then just disengage. It's not a huge deal.

Each of Ed's references are located in peer reviewed journals; journals that go to great lengths to measure the validity of studies that are published. It might behoove you to read them and consider what they offer you as a person choosing to pursue vegetarianism. In no way do they invalidate the choice.

regards,
Bill

Post 111

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 11:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert's response to Teresa concerning "standards."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No - they are made by the essence of any given entity - the best can be as abberant as the worse....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

How does one deduce "essence," then, in order to disregard aberration?

Post 112

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 4:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed, I cited the study of the Kenyan school children as an argument against vegetarianism on another list that I was posting to, but the vegetarians on the list replied that the study was misleading, because the Kenyan children were subsisting on a diet of nothing but corn and beans, which was nutritionally inadequate, not because it lacked meat, but because it lacked a sufficient variety of foods to provide all of the nutrients needed for proper growth and development. While it is true that the addition of meat and milk improved the nutritional status of their diets, those diets could just as well have been improved by a wider variety of vegetarian foods. At least that was their rejoinder. Vegetarians also argue that one can supplement a vegetarian diet with nutrients like B12 that are in short supply. One doesn't need to eat animal products in order to get these nutrients.

- Bill

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 113

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Dustin,

Ed,

Where do you find all of these studies? Google? Studies found on the internet are probably a poor reason to gobble down Big Macs in the name of philosophical triumph.
Dustin, I answered the "Google" question back in post 84 ...

And, in this regard, I'm not "trusting Google" -- I've reviewed at least 100's of studies, at least 1000's of abstracts, and at least 10's of thousands of peer-reviewed titles.

In short, I don't "trust" Google, I trust my hundreds of hours of reflection on relevant evidence. And, if you had had the time, energy, and inclination to spend hundreds of hours of YOUR lifetime reflecting on scientific evidence -- then I'd expect you to trust that spent effort like I trust mine.
... and, if you look at the headers of each of these studies, then you will see that these are studies that were pulished in peer-reviewed medical journals, such as: Preventative Medicine, Cancer Research, Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology, British Journal of Nutrition, Baillieres Clinics in Haematology, and Journal of Nutrition. Now, be sure, just being published in a peer-reviewed medical journal is not truth guarantee -- but it is a guarantee over the specific process of knowledge acquisition (as primary researchers have to state how it is that they found what they did).

And, for that last time Dustin, no -- I don't use relatively unfiltered search engines such as Google to find these studies (which, itself, is a side point if the study itself IS ALREADY peer-reviewed in a medical journal). I used the PubMed link at the National Center for Biotechnological Information (a division of the National Library of Medicine which, itself, is a division of the National Institutes of Health -- the largest medical/scientific entity on the planet).

Dustin, if YOU would like to sift through the 17 million primary research articles at PubMed, then here is a ready-made search link ...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Limits&DB=pubmed

... knock yourself out.

Ed


Post 114

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 6:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I find it highly dubious to consider the human animal to exist outside of its controlled system. I also find it highly dubious to consider that the non-human animal does not evolve or learn. This is not only why your "metaphysical" explanation didn't fly by me, it's why I question it. I'm not worried about what you think is "out there."
I have no idea what you're talking about, or what this means, but the idea that we're as conditioned as a rat (can't exist outside "controlled" system) is probably foundational to our differences in this argument.  When your cat decides to build a ship, explore China, and write his memoirs, please let me know.  

Sure, animals can learn, but they can't choose to learn anything. Whatever they learn is only a reaction to some outside influence that has a direct effect on a very limited number of things: Food, water, and reproduction. That's all. 

Animals don't "reflect" or "ponder" alternative possibilities to their lives. They have no way of making the kinds of connections we do, of grasping reality the way we do.  They'll perhaps adapt to whatever is thrown their way environmentally, but chances are they'll die before they figure out how to adapt effectively.

 I maintain that "ethics," "values," "principles," "sapiency," and so on, are contingent upon contexts within actual existence.

Very sad and I feel badly for you. A rich mind is untethered.


Post 115

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill,

Is the domesticated fowl you're eating comparable in fat to the wild game that early man consumed?
Not quite, but this line of reasoning you've undertaken leads to 2 eventual points of argument:

(1) too much saturated fat
(2) too high of an n-6/n-3 profile

Taking (1) first, I've already explained to you, laboriously, that the adverse effect of the quantity of saturated fat -- is dependent on the background diet (macronutrient profile, glycemic load, background fatty acid profile). As for (2), I've already shown that it is not the absolute amount of n-6 that kills you, but the ratio of n-6/n-3 (ie. if you consume enough n-3, you can healthfully eat lots of meat).

Back to (1) ...

===================================
 Diabet Med. 2006 Jan;23(1):15-20.

Short-term effects of severe dietary carbohydrate-restriction advice in Type 2 diabetes--a randomized controlled trial.

Diabetes and Vascular Health Centre, Royal Devon and Exeter NHS Trust, Exeter, UK. m.e.daly@exeter.ac.uk

 

OBJECTIVE: This study sought to examine the effects of a 3-month programme of dietary advice to restrict carbohydrate intake compared with reduced-portion, low-fat advice in obese subjects with poorly controlled Type 2 diabetes. RESEARCH

 

DESIGN AND METHODS: One hundred and two patients with Type 2 diabetes were recruited across three centres and randomly allocated to receive group education and individual dietary advice. Weight, glycaemic control, lipids and blood pressure were assessed at baseline and 3 months. Dietary quality was assessed at the end of study.

 

RESULTS: Weight loss was greater in the low-carbohydrate (LC) group (-3.55 +/- 0.63, mean +/- sem) vs. -0.92 +/- 0.40 kg, P = 0.001) and cholesterol : high-density lipoprotein (HDL) ratio improved (-0.48 +/- 0.11 vs. -0.10 +/- 0.10, P = 0.01). However, relative saturated fat intake was greater (13.9 +/- 0.71 vs. 11.0 +/- 0.47% of dietary intake, P < 0.001), although absolute intakes were moderate.

 

CONCLUSIONS: Carbohydrate restriction was an effective method of achieving short-term weight loss compared with standard advice, but this was at the expense of an increase in relative saturated fat intake.

 

PMID: 16409560 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

===================================

 

Recap:

A 13.9% saturated fat diet improved heart disease risk -- as quantified by the gold standard "cholesterol : high-density lipoprotein (HDL) ratio" -- overandabove an 11.0% saturated fat diet (ie. the higher saturated fat diet was more healthful here).

 

 

 

===================================

Metabolism. 2005 Jun;54(6):769-74.

Beef and soy-based food supplements differentially affect serum lipoprotein-lipid profiles because of changes in carbohydrate intake and novel nutrient intake ratios in older men who resistive-train.

Department of Human Nutrition, Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS 66506, USA. haub@humec.ksu.edu

 

OBJECTIVE: We examined if the predominant source of dietary protein influenced the lipoprotein-lipid profile in older men who performed resistive exercise training (RT). DESIGN: This is a 14-week, randomized, repeated-measures study with a 12-week period of RT with supplementation of different sources of dietary protein (beef and soy).

 

SETTING: Nutrition, Metabolism, and Exercise Laboratory, Central Arkansas Veteran's Healthcare System, North Little Rock, Ark. Subjects Twenty-six healthy men were recruited, and 21 men (age 65 +/- 5 years, body mass index 28.2 +/- 2.6 kg/m 2 ) completed the study. Interventions For 14 weeks, all men were counseled to self-select a lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet. For 2 weeks (baseline), all men also consumed 0.6 g-protein/kg per day from portioned quantities of soy-based texturized vegetable protein foods.

 

For the next 12 weeks, 11 men were randomized to continue with texturized vegetable protein foods (VEG group), whereas 10 men were randomized to receive 0.6 g-protein/kg per day from portioned quantities of beef (BEEF group) and continue their otherwise lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet. All men participated in RT 3 d/wk during this 12-week period. Assessments of upper and lower body muscle strength and power, serum lipoprotein-lipid profile, and dietary nutrient intakes were made at baseline and week 12 of RT (POST).

 

RESULTS: The BEEF and VEG groups increased ( P < .05) overall muscle strength and muscle power with RT, with no differences between groups. From baseline to POST, the BEEF group had increased concentrations of high-density lipoprotein cholesterol ( P = .025; HDL-C), low-density lipoprotein cholesterol ( P = .027; LDL-C), and total cholesterol ( P = .015: CHOL), with no changes ( P > .05) in triacylglycerol (TG), the CHOL/HDL-C ratio, or the TG/HDL-C ratio. The VEG group did not experience within-group changes ( P > .05) in any lipoprotein-lipid parameter. At POST, the concentrations of HDL-C, LDL-C, and CHOL were greater in the BEEF group compared with the VEG group. There were significant interaction effects for HDL-C ( P = .004) and the TG/HDL-C ratio ( P = .022).

 

Multiple regression analysis determined that, regardless of intervention, change in the saturated fat/fiber ratio (SF/fiber) predicted CHOL (adjusted R 2 = 0.34); the SF/fiber ratio predicted LDL-C (adjusted R 2 = 0.36); the cholesterol/fiber intake ratio predicted HDL-C (adjusted R 2 = 0.26), and the change in carbohydrate intake predicted the CHOL/HDL-C ratio (adjusted R 2 = 0.37) and TG (adjusted R 2 = 0.44).

 

CONCLUSIONS: These results suggest that the lipoprotein-lipid profile in these older men was differentially affected by supplementation with beef versus soy-based foods during RT. Regardless of group, the lipoprotein-lipid changes were predicted by differences in the SF/fiber ratio and cholesterol/fiber ratio and increases in carbohydrate intake over time.

 

PMID: 15931612 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

===================================

 

Recap:

The saturated fat/fiber ratio predicts total cholesterol changes (ie. you can eat more saturated fat and, if you also eat more fiber, then your total cholesterol won't increase). The saturated fat/fiber ratio predicts LDL cholesterol changes  (ie. you can eat more saturated fat and, if you also eat more fiber, then your LDL cholesterol won't increase). The change in carbohydrate intake predicted the CHOL/HDL-C ratio (ie. the less carbohydrate you eat, the lower your risk of heart disease, as measured by the gold standard ratio of total cholesterol-to-HDLs).

 

Recap-on-the-recap: You can "get away with" increased saturated fat intakes -- as long as you control for total carbohydrate and fiber intake.

 

 

 

===================================

Ann Intern Med. 2005 May 3;142(9):725-33.

The effect of a plant-based diet on plasma lipids in hypercholesterolemic adults: a randomized trial.

Stanford University Medical School and Stanford University Medical Center, Stanford, California, USA. cgardner@stanford.edu

 

BACKGROUND: A variety of food combinations can be used to meet national U.S. guidelines for obtaining 30% of energy or less from total fat and 10% of energy or less from saturated fat. OBJECTIVE: To contrast plasma lipid responses to 2 low-fat diet patterns.

 

DESIGN: Randomized clinical trial.

 

SETTING: 4-week outpatient feeding study with weight held constant.

 

PARTICIPANTS: 120 adults 30 to 65 years of age with prestudy low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol concentrations of 3.3 to 4.8 mmol/L (130 to 190 mg/dL), body mass index less than 31 kg/m2, estimated dietary saturated fat at least 10% of calories, and otherwise general good health.

 

MEASUREMENTS: Plasma lipid levels.

 

INTERVENTION: Two diets, the Low-Fat diet and the Low-Fat Plus diet, designed to be identical in total fat, saturated fat, protein, carbohydrate, and cholesterol content, consistent with former American Heart Association Step I guidelines. The Low-Fat diet was relatively typical of a low-fat U.S. diet. The Low-Fat Plus diet incorporated considerably more vegetables, legumes, and whole grains, consistent with the 2000 American Heart Association revised guidelines.

 

RESULTS: Four-week changes in the Low-Fat and Low-Fat Plus groups were -0.24 mmol/L (-9.2 mg/dL) versus -0.46 mmol/L (-17.6 mg/dL) for total cholesterol (P = 0.01) and -0.18 mmol/L (-7.0 mg/dL) versus -0.36 mmol/L (-13.8 mg/dL) for LDL cholesterol (P = 0.02); between-group differences were -0.22 mmol/L (-9 mg/dL) (95% CI, -0.05 to -0.39 mmol/L [-2 to -15 mg/dL]) and -0.18 mmol/L (-7 mg/dL) (CI, -0.04 to -0.32 mmol/L [-2 to -12 mg/dL]) for total and LDL cholesterol, respectively. The 2 diet groups did not differ significantly in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride levels.

 

LIMITATIONS: 4-week duration.

 

CONCLUSIONS: Previous national dietary guidelines primarily emphasized avoiding saturated fat and cholesterol; as a result, the guidelines probably underestimated the potential LDL cholesterol-lowering effect of diet. In this study, emphasis on including nutrient-dense plant-based foods, consistent with recently revised national guidelines, increased the total and LDL cholesterol-lowering effect of a low-fat diet.

 

PMID: 15867404 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

===================================

 

Recap:

A narrow focus on the quantity of saturated fat in a diet -- turning a blind-eye to the level of fruits and vegetables in said diet -- was a thinking error and is wrong. Or, said another way, total fiber intake trumps total saturated fat intake.

 

 

 

===================================

Diabetologia. 2005 Jan;48(1):8-16.

Comparison of high-fat and high-protein diets with a high-carbohydrate diet in insulin-resistant obese women.

Edgar National Centre for Diabetes Research, Medical and Surgical Sciences, University of Otago, PO Box 56, Dunedin, New Zealand. kirsten.mcauley@stonebow.otago.ac.nz

 

AIMS/HYPOTHESIS: A diet low in saturated fatty acids and rich in wholegrains, vegetables and fruit is recommended in order to reduce the risk of obesity, cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes mellitus. However there is widespread interest in high-fat ("Atkins Diet") and high-protein ("Zone Diet") alternatives to the conventional high-carbohydrate, high-fibre approach. We report on a randomised trial that compared these two alternative approaches with a conventional diet in overweight insulin-resistant women.

 

METHODS: Ninety-six normoglycaemic, insulin-resistant women (BMI >27 kg/m(2)) were randomised to one of three dietary interventions: a high-carbohydrate, high-fibre (HC) diet, the high-fat (HF) Atkins Diet, or the high-protein (HP) Zone Diet. The experimental approach was designed to mimic what might be achieved in clinical practice: the recommendations involved advice concerning food choices and were not prescriptive in terms of total energy. There were supervised weight loss and weight maintenance phases (8 weeks each), but there was no contact between the research team and the participants during the final 8 weeks of the study. Outcome was assessed in terms of body composition and indicators of cardiovascular and diabetes risk.

 

RESULTS: Body weight, waist circumference, triglycerides and insulin levels decreased with all three diets but, apart from insulin, the reductions were significantly greater in the HF and HP groups than in the HC group. These observations suggest that the popular diets reduced insulin resistance to a greater extent than the standard dietary advice did.

 

When compared with the HC diet, the HF and HP diets were shown to produce significantly (p<0.01) greater reductions in several parameters, including weight loss (HF -2.8 kg, HP -2.7 kg), waist circumference (HF -3.5 cm, HP -2.7 cm) and triglycerides (HF -0.30 mmol/l, HP [corrected] -0.22 mmol/l). LDL cholesterol decreased in individuals on the HC and HP diets, but tended to fluctuate in those on the HF diet to the extent that overall levels were significantly lower in the HP group than in the HF group (-0.28 mmol/l, 95% CI 0.04-0.52, p=0.02). Of those on the HF diet, 25% showed a >10% increase in LDL cholesterol, whereas this occurred in only 13% of subjects on the HC diet and 3% of those on the HP diet.

 

CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION: In routine practice a reduced-carbohydrate, higher protein diet may be the most appropriate overall approach to reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes. To achieve similar benefits on a HC diet, it may be necessary to increase fibre-rich wholegrains, legumes, vegetables and fruits, and to reduce saturated fatty acids to a greater extent than appears to be achieved by implementing current guidelines. The HF approach appears successful for weight loss in the short term, but lipid levels should be monitored. The potential deleterious effects of the diet in the long term remain a concern.

 

PMID: 15616799 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

===================================

 

Recap:

High-fat (low-carb) diets are likely better for type 2 diabetics -- than high-carb diets are (in terms of disease risk).

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Post 116

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 6:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill D.,

Before talking to you, I didn't know that grains could be as acid-producing (and therefore as calcium draining) as they are, although the sulfur-containing amino acids in animal protein (e.g., cysteine and methionine) are more acidic than those in vegetable protein, aren't they?
Bill, here's the top 15 most metabolically-acidifying foods (per 100 gram portions) ...

1) Parmesan cheese -- 34.2
2) Processed cheese -- 28.7
3) Hard cheese -- 19.2
4) Gouda cheese -- 18.6
5) Brown rice -- 12.5
6) Trout -- 10.8
7) Rolled oats -- 10.7
8) Turkey -- 9.9
9) Cottage cheese -- 8.7
10) Chicken -- 8.7
11) Peanuts -- 8.3
12) Whole wheat bread -- 8.2
13) Eggs -- 8.1
14) Pork -- 7.9
15) Beef -- 7.8

Recap:
Cheese is the worst, followed by rice, fish, and oats. Beef is not nearly as metabolically-acidifying as rice or oats are.

Ed


Post 117

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill D.,

Good point about the malnourished Kenyans.

Ed


Post 118

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ed wrote,
The concern about heart disease has been adequately diminished -- which makes me question your epistemological sincerity, as you continue to ignore the fact that high-saturated fat diets (like the Atkins diet) -- reduce the risk for heart disease. It's as if you'd rather believe that your decades-old belief has been true all along -- than for it to actually correspond to the facts of reality. This is a little disconcerting, and especially so from the likes of yourself (someone with such background epistemological virtue).
I'm not ignoring the evidence. Studies comparing the effects of the Atkins Diet and a relatively high-cholesterol, 30% fat, calorie-restricted diet show, on average that the Atkins Diet increases total cholesterol by about 2%, and LDL-cholesterol by 3%, whereas, the 30% fat diet lowers these values by 6 % and 9%, respectively. Furthermore, when compared to a low-fat diet, like the one advocated by Dean Ornish, the Atkins diet markedly increases your risk of heart disease, strokes and other forms of atherosclerosis (kidney failure and peripheral vascular diseases) – and all major health organizations and almost all doctors and scientists agree. See: St Jeor ST, Howard BV, Prewitt TE, Bovee V, Bazzarre T, Eckel RH; Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Dietary protein and weight reduction: a statement for healthcare professionals from the Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Circulation. 2001 Oct 9;104(15):1869-74.

All well-designed studies show the total cholesterol and bad LDL cholesterol both increase with the Atkins Diet. See: Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO, Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S. A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity. N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2082-90. Stern L, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams M, Gracely EJ, Samaha FF. The Effects of Low-Carbohydrate versus Conventional Weight Loss Diets in Severely Obese Adults: One-Year Follow-up of a Randomized Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):778-785. Larosa JC, Fry AG, Muesing R, Rosing DR. Effects of high-protein, low-carbohydrate dieting on plasma lipoproteins and body weight. J Am Diet Assoc. 1980 Sep;77(3):264-70.

The May 2004 study, financed by Atkins and published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, described two participants in the Atkins diet group who dropped out of the study because of concerns about elevated serum lipid levels. In one participant, the LDL-cholesterol level increased from 184 mg/dl (4.75 mmol/l) to 283 mg/dl (7.31 mmol/l) in 3 months. Another participant’s LDL-cholesterol level went from 182 mg/dl (4.70 mmol/l ) to 219 mg/dl (5.66 mmol/l) in 4 weeks. Overall, LDL-cholesterol increased by more than 10% in 30% of the people on the low-carbohydrate diet. See: Yancy WS Jr, Olsen MK, Guyton JR, Bakst RP, Westman EC. A Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Fat Diet To Treat Obesity and Hyperlipidemia: A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):769-777.

Ideally, LDL-cholesterol should be below 100 mg/dl, and below 70 mg/dl for people with existing heart disease.

The spin Atkins promoters use to minimize the impact of these negative findings is to point out the Atkins Diet lowers triglycerides, raises so-called good HDL-cholesterol, and increases the amount of less dense LDL-cholesterol. Both triglycerides and HDL-cholesterol are considered of much less importance than total- and LDL-cholesterol in predicting the future risk of artery disease. For example, in the well-respected studies on the reversal of heart disease by Dr. Dean Ornish, participants showed reversal on his very-low fat diet, while at the same time their triglycerides increased and their HDL-cholesterol levels decreased. See: Ornish D, Scherwitz LW, Billings JH, Brown SE, Gould KL, Merritt TA, Sparler S, Armstrong WT, Ports TA, Kirkeeide RL, Hogeboom C, Brand RJ. Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease. JAMA. 1998 Dec 16;280(23):2001-7.

In the most important study yet published on the reversal of artery disease using cholesterol-lowering medications (like Lipitor), researchers found that good HDL-cholesterol played no role in predicting the condition of the arteries (growth of plaques). See: Nissen SE, Tuzcu EM, Schoenhagen P, Brown BG, Ganz P, Vogel RA, Crowe T, Howard G, Cooper CJ, Brodie B, Grines CL, DeMaria AN; REVERSAL Investigators. Effect of intensive compared with moderate lipid-lowering therapy on progression of coronary atherosclerosis: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2004 Mar 3;291(9):1071-80.

To determine the true impact of the Atkins Diet on blood cholesterol, a comparison must be made with a truly low-fat (10% or less), no-cholesterol diet. Two studies of people following very low-cholesterol diets suggest what will be found: When subjects following a low-cholesterol diet (97 mg/day) were fed one egg a day (an additional 321 mg of cholesterol) their “bad” LDL-cholesterol increased by 12%. (Sacks FM, Salazar J, Miller L, Foster JM, Sutherland M, Samonds KW, Albers JJ, Kass EH. Ingestion of egg raises plasma low density lipoproteins in free-living subjects. Lancet. 1984 Mar 24;1(8378):647-9.) By comparison, the egg industry has funded numerous studies to “prove” eating eggs does not raise cholesterol – they accomplish this by feeding eggs to subjects whose intestines are already fully saturated with cholesterol from their regular diet – so they are able to absorb little more.

A group of Tarahumara Indians from Northern Mexico was switched from their traditional diet of corn, beans, squash and other vegetables (2700 calories, 16% fat and trace cholesterol) to an American diet (4100 calories, 44% fat, and 1020 mg cholesterol) for five weeks. (McMurry MP, Cerqueira MT, Connor SL, Connor WE. Changes in lipid and lipoprotein levels and body weight in Tarahumara Indians after consumption of an affluent diet. N Engl J Med. 1991 Dec 12;325(24):1704-8.) These changes were seen in their blood:

Total cholesterol increased 31% (121 to 159 mg/dl)
LDL-cholesterol increased by 39% (72 to 100 mg/dl)
HDL-cholesterol increased by 31% (32 to 42 mg/dl)
Triglycerides increased by 18% (91 to 108 mg/dl)

(Note that eating an unhealthy diet with more fat and cholesterol increases all fractions of cholesterol, including “good” HDL-cholesterol.)

Long-term benefits of a low-fat diet have been seen with the Ornish and Pritikin groups. (Aldana SG, Whitmer WR, Greenlaw R, Avins AL, Salberg A, Barnhurst M, Fellingham G, Lipsenthal L. Cardiovascular risk reductions associated with aggressive lifestyle modification and cardiac rehabilitation. Heart Lung. 2003 Nov-Dec;32(6):374-82. Barnard RJ. Effects of life-style modification on serum lipids. Arch Intern Med. 1991 Jul;151(7):1389-94. Anderson JW, Konz EC, Jenkins DJ. Health advantages and disadvantages of weight-reducing diets: a computer analysis and critical review. J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Oct;19(5):578-90.)

Six month results from the very low-fat diet used by Dr. Ornish found significantly greater reductions in anginal (chest pain) frequency, body weight, body mass index, systolic blood pressure, total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and glucose, than in a cardiac rehabilitation group using the standard Heart Association (30% fat) diet. (Aldana SG, Whitmer WR, Greenlaw R, Avins AL, Salberg A, Barnhurst M, Fellingham G, Lipsenthal L. Cardiovascular risk reductions associated with aggressive lifestyle modification and cardiac rehabilitation. Heart Lung. 2003 Nov-Dec;32(6):374-82.)

Results of a study of 4587 adults who attended a 3-week residential Pritikin Program using a very low-fat diet, showed total cholesterol was reduced by 23% (234 to 180 mg/dl) and LDL-cholesterol was reduced by 23% (151 to 116 mg/dl). (Barnard RJ. Effects of life-style modification on serum lipids. Arch Intern Med. 1991 Jul;151(7):1389-94.) Follow-up studies for 18 months on a small group of these people showed that, in most cases, continued compliance with the program maintained total cholesterol values well below 200 mg/dl.

- Bill



Post 119

Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill D.,

Good point about the malnourished Kenyans.

Ed
Yeah, I guess it helps to hear the other side. ;-) Although, I've heard it said that young children don't do especially well on extremely low-fat diets, which is evidently what the Kenyan children were on -- that they need more fat than adults do. I don't know how true this is, but that's just what I've heard. I haven't really investigated it. Human breast milk contains a fair amount of fat, but, interestingly, a surprisingly low amount of protein - only 6% of total calories -- at a time when the offspring are undergoing their most rapid growth and development. This is sometimes used as an argument for lower protein diets among adults, but again we may be comparing apples and oranges.

- Bill

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.