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Post 60

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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I'm sorry friend. I just don't see what you're getting at! I think it is because your arguments are streched thin and not productive. This doesn't have anything to do with Cancer or chemotherapy, or science vs mysticism. I was talking about diet, and how one feels on a daily basis in regards to it. Obviously, I don't think magic should determine how someone feels about their diet.

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Post 61

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 2:51pmSanction this postReply
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Jonathan, Dustin is completely unarmed, and now resorts to evasion.

   


 



Post 62

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 5:36pmSanction this postReply
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Well, I gave what I decided to say on the issue, sorry that I'm not going to waste my time arguing meaninglessness with you. Yes, I'm cowering in fear. What do you think of what I said on Vegetarianism, though?

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Post 63

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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What do you think of what I said on Vegetarianism, though?
That it's not an ethical choice (you don't care, remember?), but using animals for food is "murder."

 That you're not interested in the science. You only care about how you feel after you eat something. (Science?? We don't need no stinking science!)

That everyone who eats meat will die of colon cancer.

That questions designed to highlight the contradictions in your conclusions are actually meaninglessly "loaded."  

I think you don't have a clue what you're talking about.  I think you're in over your head here, and have mistaken this forum for something out of MySpace.

I think you have, at best, a superficial grasp of vegetarianism, and of life in general.



 



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Post 64

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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===================================
 Eur J Clin Nutr. 2002 Mar;56 Suppl 1:S19-24.

Meat consumption and cancer of the large bowel.

Human Nutrition, The University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia. S.Truswell@bioch.usyd.edu.au

 

Since the major reviews on diet and cancer by the World Cancer Research Fund (WCRF) and by the British Department of Health's Committee on Medical Aspects of Food Policy (COMA) in 1997 and 1998, additional epidemiological studies relating (red) meat consumption and colorectal cancer have been published or found by search. These are collected here.

 

Thirty adequate case-control studies have been published up to 1999 (from 16 different countries). Twenty of them found no significant association of (red) meat with colorectal cancer. Of the remaining 10 studies reporting an association, some obtained statistical significance only in rectal or colon cancers, another only in men, not women, or found a stronger association with pasta and rice, or used an inadequate food list in the food frequency questionnaire.

 

Fifteen cohort studies have now been published. Only in three were significant associations of (red) meat found with colorectal cancer. Two of these positive studies were from the same group in the USA (relative risk 1.7). The results of the third positive study appear to conflict with data from part of the vegetarians follow up mortality study.

 

Here, five groups of vegetarians (in three different countries) with socially matched controls were followed up (total 76 000 people). Mortality from colorectal cancer was not distinguishable between vegetarians and controls.

 

While it is still possible that certain processed meats or sausages (with a variety of added ingredients) or meats cooked at very high temperature carry some risk, the relationship between meats in general and colorectal cancer now looks weaker than the 'probable' status it was judged to have by the WCRF in 1997.

 

PMID: 11965518 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

===================================

 

Recap:

The weight of scientific evidence does not support a claim that meat intake increases risk of colon cancer. In isolated studies, both pasta and rice have linked to a higher risk of colon cancer than meat has. Mortality data from 76,000 individuals failed to find any excess risk of colon cancer in meat-eaters (as opposed to vegetarians).

 

Processed and charred meats are the exception -- and a near-elimination of their consumption isn't irrational; like a near-elimination of meat (on the whole) would be.

 

Ed


Post 65

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa,

Like I said, I've said what I have to say. While I could argue miniscule details with you in circles (like seems to be commonplace around here) I've gotten most of the response and piece of mind I was looking for from other posts. Sorry it frustrates you so much that you won't get an argument, but at least I've gotten a point of view. In such a sense, I win, you lose. Back to MySpace with ye, elite intellectual! =]

By the way, you've taken the point of view I've given you about my diet and equated it to me having a superficial understanding of life. You seem very abrasive, and I think Joe has given me the best response on the thread, not you.
(Edited by Dustin
on 8/24, 8:28pm)


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Post 66

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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================================
Eur J Cancer Prev. 1999 Jul;8(3):229-35.

Foods as risk factors for colorectal cancer: a case-control study in Burgundy (France).

* Boutron-Ruault MC,
* Senesse P,
* Faivre J,
* Chatelain N,
* Belghiti C,
* Meance S.

ISTNA, Conservatoire National des Arts et Metiers, Paris, France.

Although the high meat-low vegetable diet is considered the reference high-risk diet for colorectal cancer, particularly in USA communities, other at-risk dietary patterns, such as high intakes of processed meat and refined carbohydrates are emerging.

Little is known about risk factors for colorectal cancer in France, a country at high risk of rectal cancer and moderately high risk of colon cancer. We compared diet of colorectal cancer cases (n = 171) and general population controls (n = 309) in Burgundy (France). Categories of intake were established by sex and based on the distributions of food intakes in controls.

Odds ratios for the fourth vs first quartile of intake (OR4) were 2.0 (1.1-3.6) for refined cereal products (rice, pasta and pastry), 2.4 (1.3-4.5) for delicatessen, 2.3 (1.2-4.2) for pates, 1.7 (1.1-2.8) for offal and 2.1 (1.1-4.0) for butter, lard and cream. There was no association with consumption of fresh meat (OR4 = 1.2), fish (OR4 = 1.5), egg (OR4 = 1.1) or dairy products (OR4 = 1.0).

A protective effect of vegetables was only observed for left colon cancer (OR3 = 0.3; 0.1-0.6). In men, the most significant risk factors were refined cereal products, seasoning animal fats, chocolate and coffee, whereas risk factors were delicatessen, fat meat, pasta, rice, and chocolate in women.

The strong association with refined cereal products is consistent with the hypothesis of a role of hyperinsulinism in colorectal carcinogenesis. The association with processed but not fresh meat suggests the importance of exogenous carcinogenesis in that area.

PMID: 10443952 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
================================

Recap:
Refined rice, pasta, and pastry (statistically-significant) give rise to a much higher risk of colon cancer than meat (statistically-insignificant) does.



================================
J Epidemiol. 1999 Aug;9(4):275-84.

Factor analysis of digestive cancer mortality and food consumption in 65 Chinese counties.

* Zhuo XG,
* Watanabe S.

Department of Nutritional Science, Faculty of Applied Bioscience, Tokyo University of Agriculture, Japan.

Dietary factors were analyzed for the regional difference of GI tract cancer mortality rates in China. Sixty-five rural counties were selected among a total of 2,392 counties to represent a range of rates for seven most prevalent cancers.

The dietary data in the selected 65 counties were obtained by three-day dietary record of households in 1983. The four digestive cancer mortality rates (annual cases per 100,000 standardized truncated rates for ages 35-64) and per capita food consumption were analyzed by the principal components factor analysis. [break]

Rice, processed starch and sugar were closely associated with colon cancer, supporting the insulin/colon cancer hypothesis.

PMID: 10510586 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
================================

Recap:
Rice, processed starch, and sugar (likely because of their glycemic load) -- give rise to the greatest nutritional risk for colon cancer.


Ed

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Post 67

Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 10:48pmSanction this postReply
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=================================
Proc Nutr Soc. 2006 Feb;65(1):1-6.

The ancestral human diet: what was it and should it be a paradigm for contemporary nutrition?

* Eaton SB.

Department of Anthropology and Radiology, Emory University, Atlanta, GA 30327, USA.

Awareness of the ancestral human diet might advance traditional nutrition science. The human genome has hardly changed since the emergence of behaviourally-modern humans in East Africa 100-50 x 10(3) years ago; genetically, man remains adapted for the foods consumed then.

The best available estimates suggest that those ancestors obtained about 35% of their dietary energy from fats, 35% from carbohydrates and 30% from protein. Saturated fats contributed approximately 7.5% total energy and harmful trans-fatty acids contributed negligible amounts.

Polyunsaturated fat intake was high, with n-6:n-3 approaching 2:1 (v. 10:1 today). Cholesterol consumption was substantial, perhaps 480 mg/d. Carbohydrate came from uncultivated fruits and vegetables, approximately 50% energy intake as compared with the present level of 16% energy intake for Americans.

High fruit and vegetable intake and minimal grain and dairy consumption made ancestral diets base-yielding, unlike today's acid-producing pattern. Honey comprised 2-3% energy intake as compared with the 15% added sugars contribute currently.

Fibre consumption was high, perhaps 100 g/d, but phytate content was minimal. Vitamin, mineral and (probably) phytochemical intake was typically 1.5 to eight times that of today except for that of Na, generally <1000 mg/d, i.e. much less than that of K.

The field of nutrition science suffers from the absence of a unifying hypothesis on which to build a dietary strategy for prevention; there is no Kuhnian paradigm, which some researchers believe to be a prerequisite for progress in any scientific discipline.

An understanding of human evolutionary experience and its relevance to contemporary nutritional requirements may address this critical deficiency.

PMID: 16441938 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
=================================

Recap:
The human genome is adapted to, roughly, an iso-caloric diet [roughly equal parts of fats (35%) , carbohydrates (35%), and protein (30%)]. Any straying from this specific genetic adaptation, courts with eventual manifestations of physiological disarray.

Saturated, and especially trans-, fatty acids were always low -- throughout 99.9% of human evolutionary adaptation. Omega-6 fatty acids were not more than twice the intake of omega-3 fatty acids -- until about a century or so ago (when, due to mass-manufacturing, they shot up to at least 10 times that amount).

Fruits and vegetables used to account for about 50% of energy intake. Now, they are less than a third of that. Diets used to be net base-yielding (fruits and veggies outweighed meats, dairy, and grains). Now, they are net acid-yielding (meats, dairy, and grains outweigh fruits and veggies).

Added sugars have, at least, tripled (if not, quintipled). Fiber has been cut to about a fifth of what it used to be. Micronutrient content has decreased 1.5- to 8-fold. And the potassium-to-sodium ratio -- which used to be 6-12:1, is now reversed, and we now consume more sodium than potassium; for the first time in human history.

Ed




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Post 68

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 4:49amSanction this postReply
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Ed, to hell with your science! Feelings are more important!

Post 69

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 6:18amSanction this postReply
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You seem very abrasive, and I think Joe has given me the best response on the thread, not you.
Great! At least you're willing to admit that much, and I totally agree. Except, you opted to blow Joe off (and everyone else) instead of engaging in intelligent debate.  

Dustin, you asked for opinions. Don't get pissed when they're given.


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Post 70

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Here, five groups of vegetarians (in three different countries) with socially matched controls were followed up (total 76 000 people). Mortality from colorectal cancer was not distinguishable between vegetarians and controls.

 

While it is still possible that certain processed meats or sausages (with a variety of added ingredients) or meats cooked at very high temperature carry some risk, the relationship between meats in general and colorectal cancer now looks weaker than the 'probable' status it was judged to have by the WCRF in 1997.

Dustin, this is why we need science. Without it, people run around with subjective, or just plain wrong, ideas.  

 

(I'm thinking of an old SNL skit set in the Middle Ages with Steve Martin (paraphrasing from memory): "We used to think that pain in the belly was caused by an imbalance of the humors. But now we know it's caused by demons trapped in the body."

 

Leave it to Ed to dig up relevant material.  :)

 

 


Post 71

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 7:37amSanction this postReply
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I've had those studies used "against me" before. They're basically undeniable since they're proven, but in the same respect, there are studies that claim Marijuana can prevent Cancer. There's studies for/against everything.
(Edited by Dustin
on 8/25, 7:41am)


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Post 72

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 7:45amSanction this postReply
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There's studies for/against everything.
And there are objective criteria as to whether the conclusions of these studies are valid or not. 


Post 73

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 9:10amSanction this postReply
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In post 3 Dustin said:
There's also a little science behind it - the two things exclusive to meat are cholesterol and fat.
In Post 71 Dustin said:
I've had those studies used "against me" before. They're basically undeniable since they're proven, but in the same respect, there are studies that claim Marijuana can prevent Cancer. There's studies for/against everything.


 


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Post 74

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 9:48amSanction this postReply
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The non-risk of dietary cholesterol and heart disease ...


===========================
Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2006 Jan;9(1):8-12.

Dietary cholesterol provided by eggs and plasma lipoproteins in healthy populations.

* Fernandez ML.

Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Connecticut, Storrs, Connecticut 06269, USA. maria-luz.fernandez@uconn.edu

PURPOSE OF REVIEW: Extensive research has not clearly established a link between egg consumption and risk for coronary heart disease. The effects of egg intake on plasma lipids and low-density lipoprotein (LDL) atherogenicity in healthy populations need to be addressed.

RECENT FINDINGS: The lack of connection between heart disease and egg intake could partially be explained by the fact that dietary cholesterol increases the concentrations of both circulating LDL and high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol in those individuals who experience an increase in plasma cholesterol following egg consumption (hyperresponders).

It is also important to note that 70% of the population experiences a mild increase or no alterations in plasma cholesterol concentrations when challenged with high amounts of dietary cholesterol (hyporesponders).

Egg intake has been shown to promote the formation of large LDL, in addition to shifting individuals from the LDL pattern B to pattern A, which is less atherogenic. Eggs are also good sources of antioxidants known to protect the eye; therefore, increased plasma concentrations of lutein and zeaxanthin in individuals consuming eggs are also of interest, especially in those populations susceptible to developing macular degeneration and eye cataracts.

SUMMARY: For these reasons, dietary recommendations aimed at restricting egg consumption should not be generalized to include all individuals. We need to acknowledge that diverse healthy populations experience no risk in developing coronary heart disease by increasing their intake of cholesterol but, in contrast, they may have multiple beneficial effects by the inclusion of eggs in their regular diet.

PMID: 16340654 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
===========================

Recap:
Dietary cholesterol is essentially inert, as far as heart disease risk is concerned (though saturated fat is still a potential risk, depending on the background diet it is consumed in).

Eggs are actually a "health-food" -- providing vital protective components (carotenoids) for the health of the eyes. Only folks with egg allergy and, perhaps, familial hypercholesterolemia (genetically-high cholesterol), should avoid them.



===========================
Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Oct;80(4):855-61.

Dietary cholesterol does not increase biomarkers for chronic disease in a pediatric population from northern Mexico.

* Ballesteros MN,
* Cabrera RM,
* Saucedo Mdel S,
* Fernandez ML.

Centro de Investigacion y Desarrollo AC, Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico.

BACKGROUND: An increased incidence of coronary artery disease (CAD) is prevalent in northern Mexico. Effects of specific dietary components on risk factors for CAD have not been evaluated in children.

OBJECTIVE: The purpose was to evaluate the effects of dietary cholesterol provided by whole eggs on the lipoprotein profile, LDL size, and phenotype in children from this region.

DESIGN: Children (29 girls and 25 boys aged 8-12 y) were randomly assigned to either 2 eggs/d (EGG period; 518 additional mg cholesterol) or the equivalent amount of egg whites (SUB period; 0 additional mg cholesterol) for 30 d. After a 3-wk washout period, the children were assigned to the alternate treatment.

RESULTS: Subjects were classified as hyporesponders (no increase or /=0.06 mmol/L increase). During the EGG period, the hyperresponders (n = 18) had an elevation in both LDL cholesterol (from 1.54 +/- 0.38 to 1.93 +/- 0.36 mmol/L) and HDL cholesterol (from 1.23 +/- 0.26 to 1.35 +/- 0.29 mmol/L) with no changes in LDL:HDL.

In contrast, hyporesponders (n = 36) had no significant alterations in plasma LDL or HDL cholesterol. All subjects had an increase in LDL peak diameter during the EGG period (P < 0.01) and a decrease (P < 0.01) in the smaller LDL subfractions. In addition, 5 of the children having LDL phenotype B (15%) shifted from this high-risk pattern to pattern A after the EGG treatment.

CONCLUSIONS: Intake of 2 eggs/d results in the maintenance of LDL:HDL and in the generation of a less atherogenic LDL in this population of Mexican children.

PMID: 15447890 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
===========================

Recap:
In Mexican kids, an increased egg intake DECREASED risk factors for heart disease (eggs worked as a kind of "medication" for the prevention of heart disease).

Ed
(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 8/25, 9:54am)

(Edited by Ed Thompson
on 8/25, 9:56am)


Post 75

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

For every scientific study, there is one to say the opposite. Can you really trust random "studies" you've found on Google? I'm just picking at you for the sake of it, though =P



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Post 76

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Dustin, it's like Hong said above -- there's objective criteria for the proper evaluation of all of our empirical discoveries.

If you want to bring a specific problem to my attention (a specific skepticism), then bring it. But a more general skepticism, of the kind you seem to be suggesting, is -- itself -- self-refuting.

If we can't know our heads from our asses, then this very discussion must necessarily be reduced to a shouting contest of whims. And I gave up THAT kind of behavior long ago, after understanding its relative efficiency at forwarding human progress on planet earth.

Ed
[WARNING: 3 years without B-12 drives you insane -- 6 years without it kills you (curious: How long have you been a strict Veg-head, Dustin?)]



Post 77

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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I haven't eaten an animal in eight months, and I love making veggie sushi with nori. Nori is a seaweed that tastes awesome and is a source of B12. Outside of that, I also eat cereal daily which is a great souce of B12. Claiming that someone will die from not eating animals ("getting B12") in six years is a lie, though. So stop trusting Google! I some people who have gone more then six years without meat that are alive and well. One of them is one of the most physically fit people I know.

On a side note, this thread has been great for me. I'm happier then ever to be a Vegetarian and not someone who trusts whatever is deemed "science" when it comes to nurition, health, and fitness. I've even shown this fruitful discussion to some people on both sides of the field. All in all, I feel like the definition on Objectivism 101 is just an angry stereotype from a misinformed crowd. Some people have seemed pretty passionate in fighting against my diet. This makes me quite happy. I hope the next time you gobble down a Big Mac, you do it with spiting Vegetarians in mind. As a matter of fact, why not do me a favor and do it every day? After all, you need all those vitamins. (Here comes the arguments about "healthy meat").
(Edited by Dustin
on 8/25, 12:53pm)

(Edited by Dustin
on 8/25, 12:55pm)


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Post 78

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Dustin,

You do a good job of ignoring what people are saying and putting word into their mouths. So you disagreed with the Oism 101 thing about vegetarianism being evil. That definition is clear. You say it's wrong, but you don't say why.

You then go on an insulting diatribe about meat eaters and throw out a variety of contradictory positions on why you don't eat meat. If you had said, I don't eat meat because I don't like it and I don't like factory farms personally then that would be one thing. But you don't. When people point out a contradiction in your statements or provide facts to back up their positions you wave them off with a pointless comment.

You like being a vegetarian. Fine.

You've shown that you hold contradictory possibly irrational opinions on the subject and then say the same about those who discuss it with you. You brought it up and then don't want to deal with the rational arguements.

Did those people you shared it with get that point?

Ethan


Post 79

Friday, August 25, 2006 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan, what you're saying could be true, though I didn't consider it like that. I'm glad for the perspective I got, but am not really up for arguing my position outside what I have. Sorry that I angered you by giving minimal effort in arguing. Also, I don't really find all arguments rational or worthwhile.
(Edited by Dustin
on 8/25, 2:27pm)


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