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Wednesday, August 16, 2006 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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I do not eat animals and I find the evil ethic of Vegetarianism described on Objectivism101 laughable. Is any one on the other side of the fence for discussion?

The entire case against Vegetarianism is a stereotype. I'm a Vegetarian, and I don't hold animal life as the standard of good, and I don't claim it's wrong to kill living entities.

I don't eat meat because I don't want to consume factory farmed animals that lived in their own feces and scum shortly before a brutal, systematic death. I believe when you eat that meat at Taco Bell, you approve of their practices in acquiring it. You even pay money to support it.

I have plenty of animal empathy, though. I don't like the taste of meat, or desire it. To me, it makes me think of how it is the old packaged flesh of another animal. It's not "manly", since real men don't let cmpanies such as Wal-Mart kill their game. I'm happy eating things that aren't animals - I feel healthier after I've given up meat and am happy. I'm looking out for my self interest.

Diet is part of discipline, which is a personal value. It's not some quest of virtues to convert everyone to Vegetarianism.

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Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 1:19amSanction this postReply
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Sure...I'll be happy to join in.  I think the article is perfectly legitimate.

So just to clarify, which is your reason for not eating meat?

1.)  The animals live in their own feces, so you don't think the food is clean.  (Or are you just objecting to how they're treated?)
2.)  You don't support the way animals are treated before they're slaughtered.
3.)  It's not manly enough for you, since you want to kill your own animals.
4.)  You "feel" healthier.
5.)  You're "happy eating things that aren't animals".
6.)  You have animal empathy?
7.)  You don't like the taste of meat?

Did I miss a few?  Wow...so many reasons! 

So let's see:
1.)  The food is clean.
2.)  So you eat meat that is more naturally raised?
3.)  And since you don't do that either, you're not manly?
4.)  Would you eat meat if you found it was healthier?  And are you consistent in trying to be healthy?  Regular exercise?  Regular checkups?  Etc?
5.)  Isn't this arguing in favor of the Objectivism101 piece?  You don't want to eat them because you value them as animals (intrinsic values).
6.)  Empathy is a fun one.  What rational motivation do you have?  And are you equally empathic towards all animals?
7.)  I can't really imagine this being true, but it's an easy defense since it can't be verified.  And if it wasn't accompanied by many others questionable motivations, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's just another rationalization.  But let me ask this.  Would you be willing to try new meat dishes you haven't tried before?

I've known several "Objectivists" who try to rationalize their vegetarianism (or altruism, or mysticism, or religion, or anything else).  They look, after the fact, for "rational" reasons to justify their already existing positions.  Reason or Objectivism didn't guide them to the conclusion. They came to that position earlier or for some bad reason, and attempted to justify it afterwards.  And in cases like Vegetarianism, the first goal is to blur the definition.

I would be more prone to believe someone if they said "I don't think there's anything wrong with eating meat, but I don't care for it myself".  I've actually heard this statement before.  But the people who said it didn't call themselves vegetarians.  They recognize that the word does have "moral" implications, and is a kind of belief system.  It's not just a description of people's eating habits.  When you try to stretch the meaning to include such wildly different things, you only work to excuse the worst by equating it with the best.  And the motivation is mysterious.  Why would you want to equate yourself with people who don't eat meat "on principle"?

I think the term has a well understood meaning.  It provides a kind of moral sanction to the person's choice, affirming that they are morally good for their choice to be a vegetarian.  And I think because it provides that positive moral evaluation, people want to be vegetarians.  And when someone converts to Objectivism, they want to retain their previous moral status.  They want to characterize their choices as being particularly ethical.  Objectivism won't give them such moral praise for not eating animals.  Not eating meat is like so many other things a person doesn't do.  Not particular interesting, assuming it ins't really a sacrifice (which it probably is).  So they long to retain the stature of being a vegetarian, and retain the emotional evaluation.  And the first job is to try to show that it's not incompatible with Objectivism.

But it is.  If you feel good about yourself for being a vegetarian, then you're not following Objectivism. If you feel pride in being a vegetarian, then you're upholding a different moral standard.  There's nothing inherently evil about not eating meat.  But there's nothing noble or virtuous either.  And there is something evil about not eating meat for the sake of a false morality that finds it noble or virtuous.  It's just another form of sacrifice for an irrational standard.


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Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 4:44amSanction this postReply
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Vegetarians are celery brains - full of emptiness.......

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Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 6:22amSanction this postReply
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Seems like Objectivism attacks personal dietary choice out of fear. I think the systematic murder of animals in unsanitary, disgusting conditions is something I don't want to munch on. I also think that meat tastes bad, and every time I would eat it I think of how it's the processed flesh of another animal. These are the main reasons I don't eat meat. There's also a little science behind it - the two things exclusive to meat are cholesterol and fat...so eat up.
(Edited by Dustin
on 8/17, 6:25am)


Post 4

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:26amSanction this postReply
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Been there, ate that way, learned better, moved on......

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Post 5

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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For what it's worth, many vegetables grow in animal feces as well.  Especially in the case of root vegetables, this is at least as distasteful, if you dwell on it deliberately, as anything Dustin point out.

Peter


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Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Dustin: "the two things exclusive to meat are cholesterol and fat...so eat up."

Oh good; I can eat all the Avocados I want! They’re fat free after all.


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Post 7

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 1:41pmSanction this postReply
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Dairy products have cholesterol and fat.  Do you consume dairy?  If not, then I think that would make you a vegan rather than a vegetarian.

All nuts (peanuts, almonds, cashews, etc) have fat as do apples unless you peel them.  Avocados, of course, have already been mentioned.  Baking powder has fat.  Bananas, coconut and certain kinds of corn have fat.  There's cocoa, dandelion greens, all of the vegetable oils, great northern beans, kale, lentils, lima beans, mangos, nectarines, bartlett pears, pineapples, raspberries, rice, sesame seeds, soybeans, sunflower seeds, tofu, and watermelon.

What exactly do you eat?


Post 8

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Baking powder has fat??
 
Damn, it's everywhere... 

I'm just going to stop eating altogether. 

*Kidding*


Post 9

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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Well, I said fat and cholesterol are exclusive to meat. I didn't say food outside of meat is fat free or cholesterol free. Oh well. Enjoy colon cancer.
(Edited by Dustin
on 8/17, 2:48pm)


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Post 10

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
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Dustin, your statement "fat and cholesterol are exclusive to meat" is the exact same thing as saying that no other foods contain fat or cholesterol.  Do you understand the definiton of exclusive?


Post 11

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Well, I said fat and cholesterol are exclusive to meat. I didn't say food outside of meat is fat free or cholesterol free. Oh well. Enjoy colon cancer.
If those properties, fat and cholesterol, exist in other foods, then those thing's can't be exclusive to meat, right? Saying they're exclusive means just that.

The last line implies that everyone who eats meat will get colon cancer, which is a myth. The odds may be slightly higher, but so many other factors are being ignored (genetics, for one), it wouldn't be honest to pin this particular ailment on meat, would it?

If it were true that fat and cholesterol caused colon cancer, then 95% of the world's population would have died from colon cancer, caused by eating meat, and that's just not true.

If you're hoping to extend your life by avoiding meat, then fine, but it's a mistake to blame meat for problems it doesn't always cause.

You say you just don't like the taste of meat. That's fine too, but why the moral attachment to something as benign as preferring vanilla over chocolate?

That was the whole point of Joe's post to you. There is no morality to such a preference, yet you choose to attempt a moral attachment to this particular preference when none is called for.

I love meat, but there's some I don't care for.  I don't care for some types of fish and I hate liver.  To a liver lover, does that make my preference morally inferior, somehow?  The answer is no, it doesn't.

 



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Post 12

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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I'm a Vegetarian, and I don't hold animal life as the standard of good, and I don't claim it's wrong to kill living entities.
I don't eat meat because I don't want to consume factory farmed animals that lived in their own feces and scum shortly before a brutal, systematic death. I believe when you eat that meat at Taco Bell, you approve of their practices in acquiring it.
lol

I don't approve of the brutal and systematic maiming of broccoli when they harvest it nor of the rape and pillage of the poor brussel sprouts.

Either you give animal life some sort of moral standing or you don't. If you don't, as you claim not to, then the killing of plants for food purposes is morally no worse than the killing of animals for food purposes.

Meat is good protein and it tastes delicious. You can certainly argue that some forms of meat are less healthy than others, but it's what we evolved to eat, and I really don't believe that cutting meat out entirely is healthy at all. I know two people who were mostly vegetarian for a while and then mended their ways and both say they feel much healthier and energetic now.

Post 13

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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I don't understand why there is so much animosity toward the concept of vegatarian in objectivism and on this site..  I find nothing wrong with an individual choosing to reduce the amount of suffering they cause in the world by not eating meat.  It is scientifically clear that the more complex an animal is the more emotional depth they have and the more suffering they go through.  However, I am not a vegatarian, and vegetarians who preach any kind of moral superiority are fallacious. 

For starters, they are not doing everything they can to reduce suffering in the world, and thus can not demand it of everyone else (nor is that our moral obligation of course, I am speaking specifically on holding them acountable to their own standards) Indeed, unless they have hydroponic facilities in their basement and they are growing their own vegatables then plenty of animals are killed when the massive farm equipment (spinning blades and all) cut up animals and insects residing in the crops, additionally the massive transportation system which routinely runs over animals and displaces their habitats kills many animals just getting those crops to the consumers, even organic crops.  Indeed unless one decides to curl up and die there is no way to not cause suffering on animals in the world. 

Some question for Dustin

Would you eat an animal that did not suffer was was killed without pain?
Would you eat cloned meat?
What about the animals that die from the colleting and harvesting of your food?  Insects, etc?

As far as I am concerned, if anyone truly wants to seriousy reduce the impact of 'factory farming' then they should do everything they can to develop and produce cloned 'artificial' meat, but the vast majority of vegetarians are anti-technology and typically anti-capitalist as well (Dustin being an obvious exception, as was the vegan I dated for 2 years) In short order there would be no way conventional meat processing could economically compete with growing slabs of meat which are healthier and leaner.

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/artificial_meat_grown.html

This in particular is an area of interest for me as I am on the scientific advisory board for the Lifeboat foundation www.lifeboat.com It would be completely impractical to have 'animal farms' on space stations.

Michael


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Post 14

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 5:05pmSanction this postReply
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I don't approve of the brutal and systematic maiming of broccoli when they harvest it nor of the rape and pillage of the poor brussel sprouts.

Either you give animal life some sort of moral standing or you don't. If you don't, as you claim not to, then the killing of plants for food purposes is morally no worse than the killing of animals for food purposes
Really that is a rediculous argument and no serious vegetarian would even give you the time of day if you were discussing the ethical justifications for vegetarianism with them.  It is clear that plants are not animals (slime mold and similiar organisms who cant make up their mind aside) and that insects do not have the emotional capacity of rats and rats do not have the emotional capacity of dogs and dogs do not of dolphins, whales, and chimps.  Would you kill and eat a chimpanzee?  What about a severely mentally retarded child?  When the chimps is more intelligent, what do you base your judgement on?  Is it the human species you value or sentience?  Anyone who seriously considers the issue after some time will come to recognize the relative level of sentience as the most important factor in deceiding these issue. 

There some people who refuse to eat plants (I think they are nuts) and eat only nuts and fruits and other things that were evolved to be eaten.  There are some, the breatharians, who claim to not eat all and and try to get their sustenance from sunlight and deep breaths (apparently not concerning themselves with the millions of bacterium they slaughter!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breatharian


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Post 15

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, obviously plants are not animals. But a proper ethics is not grounded upon the avoidance of creating suffering. A proper ethics is grounded upon ones own life.

I agree that senseless killing or the senseless creation of suffering is wrong. But meat production is not senseless. It is done in as efficient manner as possible for a specific purpose, which is the nutrition and enjoyment of people. People have been raising livestock for slaughter for thousands of years.

I don't take joy in the fact that a cow, who lived a perfectly cowish life grazing on grass, ends with a short sharp shock rather than old age. But it's really rather irrelevant. What matters is that beef is healthy and delicious.

And anyway, even if the cow lived a totally miserable life, it's just a fucking cow. There are far more important issues in life than the happiness of practically brain-dead bovines.

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Post 16

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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Dustin says "the systematic murder of animals". Murder, aye? Well, you've convinced me that you aren't doing it for "ethical" reasons!

And then there's the contrast of statements like "I don't claim it's wrong to kill living entities." with statements like "I think of how it's the processed flesh of another animal." I guess there's some interpretation that technically avoids a contradiction, but your first post didn't state that you had a minor technical disagreement.

And as is typical of these conversations, all of the actual reasons for the vegetarianism are quickly ignored and an exclusive focus is placed on the alleged health benefits of not eating meat. If you hadn't said everything else, it might have been a bit more convincing. As it is, it comes off as a rationalization.

But the funniest part is: "Seems like Objectivism attacks personal dietary choice out of fear." That's a funny line. I know I personally stay up at night in fear that someone might eat a carrot! The horror!

Like many ethical discussions, what you do is only part of the picture. Why you do it is also important. You can be nice to people because you benefit from having them in your life (rational self-interest), or you can do it because you feel the moral obligation to sacrifice yourself to them altruism You can choose your dietary habits based on how it benefits you (self-interest), or you can choose it for the sake of the animals (sacrifice and intrinsic values). And of course you can rationalize the second choice by pretending it's the former.



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Post 17

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
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Don't stop eating Teresa. Each starch instead! ;-)

Seriously, with few exceptions, like coconuts, avocados and olives, the amount of fat in vegetables, fruits and grains is miniscule compared to the amount in meat, dairy, nuts and seeds and extracted vegetable oils. A diet of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and a small amount of fish is probably as healthful as you can get. And you can prepare meals using these foods as ingredients that are delicious. The Russian rye bread I sent Teresa fits that diet perfectly. Too bad, you can't get in Pontiac, Michigan, Teresa. Actually, it's inconvenient for me to get it as well, since I no longer live in San Francisco.

Also, the fact that you're not eating animal products doesn't mean that you're eating healthfully. if you go to your local supermarket, you'll see that most of the packaged non-meat products, like prepared cereals, sauces, chips, donuts, cookies and pastries that line the aisles are just as bad for you as the fat laden beef, bacon, ham and pork. Everything has tons of fat and sweeteners in it. No wonder there's such a high incidence of obesity, heart disease, diabetes and cancer in our society. We can't just eat whatever tastes good and is attractively packaged. We need to exercise some discretion in what we select.

As for ethical vegetarianism, there's a good book that refutes most of the claims of the animal rights activities like PeTA. It's called Animal Scam: The Beastly Abuse of Human Rights by Kathleen Marquardt, with Herbert M. Levine and Mark La Rochelle.

I think there are some health benefits to eating animal protein, like fish. The DHA found in fish, and certain amino acids, like carnosine, carnitine and taurine, found only in animal protein have been shown to be important nutritionally. Meat also contains creatine, which is important for muscular strength and for brain function, as well as B12. Vegetarians tend to be deficient in these nutrients, especially B12, which is also vital for brain function.

So, the idea of ethical vegetarianism may not fit with an ethics of egoism, of doing what's nutritionally optimal for one's own health and wellbeing, although vegetarians would dispute this, claiming that you can take these other nutrients as supplements. But the fact that you need them just shows that human beings have evolved on a diet of animal products and have certain nutritional requirements that reflect that.

Animals slaughter other animals for food, because they need to for their own survival. Human beings can survive without eating animal products, but they survive better if they eat some animal protein, unless they're very careful about taking supplements, and who knows if there aren't other important nutrients found only in meat that have yet to be isolated. We become strict vegetarians at our peril. Of course, the problem today is not that we're strict vegetarians; it's that we're eating far too much meat, and it's much fattier meat than our ancestors consumed from hunting in the wild. The human body is adapted for small amounts of lean mean and fish, on which it does very well; it is not adapted for anything close to the standard American diet.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer
on 8/17, 8:22pm)


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Post 18

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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I guess some people don't know that big fat cows love to be eaten. ;-))
Ciro.


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Post 19

Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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When an hot dog was served to a Korean guy, he said " In Korea we eat any part of dog, but pleeeease, not that part." :))

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