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Post 100

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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Leo,

Separating church from state does nothing to cure a religiously infected mind.
And it doesn't have to. Religiously infected folks wouldn't be able to usurp power -- in a constitutional republic.


Proper education consistent with reality is the cure for ignorance. Proper education will not occur while government runs public schools because a land full of independent thinking individuals would be impossible to control.
Right! Apparently Leo, you are mistaken as to the Objectivist (a free-market) position on education. Complete separation of education and state (just like church and state, and economy and state).


If you agree that "All who initiate force against those who fail to obey opinions are immoral" then you also agree that government is immoral, since 'legal opinions' are what you call "laws".
Laws that violate rights, are laws in name only (ie. they are laws that should not be obeyed). Besides, the only laws in Objectivist government would be laws that optimize the protection of individual rights. Have you even read Rand, Leo?


All governments are corporate (abstractions) and all citizens are given a corporate identity (strawmen).

All criminal prosecutions show the plaintiff as an abstract (STATE OF OBJECTIVISM ) vs JOHN DOE (a corporate identity). Both parties MUST be equal and are therefore both considered legal PERSONS.
Criminal prosecutions ought to proceed according to all evidence relevant to rights violations. Rights violators may be -- in a sense -- an enemy of the state, but that is not fundamental to their acts of crime (it is a side-issue).

What is fundamental -- is the protection of individual rights and, ideally, nothing and no one (not even the government) would "get to" trample on individual rights. I'm talking about a government held down by a proper constitution (a constitution that has not ever existed yet).

Ed


Post 101

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 4:45amSanction this postReply
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I'm talking about a government held down by a proper constitution (a constitution that has not ever existed yet).
Ed, I'm just playing devil's advocate here as I still consider myself a fence sitter on the limited gov. vs. no gov. If I'm not mistaken, the anarchist's argument is that a constitution cannot hold down the government (and it's a good argument). The constitution hasn't prevented our government from doing much. You might argue that our constitution wasn't perfect, and I would agree, however, there are certainly parts of our constitution which were explicit, and that did not prevent politicians from acting in unconstitutional ways. A constitution is simply a piece of paper. Once you grant an entity (gov.) the power of coercion, nothing can prevent it from doing what it wants.


Post 102

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 5:26amSanction this postReply
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Jonathan Fauth wrote: "A constitution is simply a piece of paper. Once you grant an entity (gov.) the power of coercion, nothing can prevent it from doing what it wants."

A constitution need not be "a piece of paper." The British constitution is unwritten, though elements of it, such as the Bill of Rights of 1689, are documents. 

Ideally, a written constitution summarizes the reality of the political expectations of the governed and their government.  Read the documentary history of American constitutionalism at the Avalon Project of Yale Law School.  The Albany Plan of Union and the New England Confederation were laboriously detailed, even tortured.  However, by 1776, when new state constitutions were required, better efforts resulted.  The Article of Confederation built on that.  The current Constitution capped them all -- based on the experiences of the people who wrote and approved them.

On the other hand, the world has perhaps 150-180 other "constitutions" that are little more than paper of no value.  Thirty years ago, a military leader swept into power promising a new constititution.  The first one said that no one can serve as president twice -- so he was declared president for life, serving once.  Perhaps there was a "crisis" and the parliament granted him "emergency powers" -- then the constitution was "amended."  Sometimes there was a series of constitutions as one coup followed another.

Peculiar to the United States, our Supreme Court rules on the "constitutionality" of laws when they are appealed on legal grounds.  A good example are the laws against burning the American flag.  In Texas v. Johnson (491 US 397; 1989) and United States v. Eichman (496 US 310; 1990), the Supreme Court struck down those laws as being violations of the First Amendment.  This experience allows Objectivists to posit a correctly written constitution, supported by courts of "objective law", that effectively limits the government.

However, for every example of limitation, there is at least one counterexample.  The so-called "Yankee from Olympus" Oliver Wendell Holmes never met a government power he did not like.  When the railroads attempted to challenge Jim Crow laws by putting up a white man, Homer Adolph Plessy, to challenge Louisiana's segregation statutes, they lost.  On the eve of World War II, the Supreme Court forced religious adherents to salute the American flag -- with the same right forearm extension used by the fascists ... and then they reversed themselves quickly... 

In no case -- the United Kingdom, the United States, Ruritania, Zamunda, or San Marcos -- does a constitution limit the government.  Ultimately, every government rests on the consent of the governed.  Dictators brutally crush opposition, it is true.  It is arguable whether or not the opponents of a cruel regime would be any better once they were in power.  Remember that in the United States of 1798, it became a crime to criticize the government.  The American federal government was not held in check by the Constitution as much as it was by the frontier.  

Can a constitution ever be amended?  Earlier this month, we narrowly escaped yet another attempt at a "flag burning amendment."  When one passes, it will become the law of the land.


(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 7/27, 5:29am)


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Post 103

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:16amSanction this postReply
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John and Michael, you bring up the point that pieces of paper (eg. constitutions) don't control people. Earlier in the thread, I quoted M. Adler ...

================
... men cannot long stand oppression, nor will they long suffer abuses and injustices. And when injustices thrive in a society they would rather return to a state of war than put up with a peace that is not really peace at all because they do not have justice.

As Locke himself pointed out, the word "rebel" comes from the Latin word "rebellare" which means "return to war," because the peace is not a good peace. Aquinas before him said exactly the same thing. Men always fight and always will fight to get the justice they think they deserve.
================

The talking point is that men always will fight to get deserved justice. As it turns out, it's the people, not the paper, that secures the justice that is required (ie. a justice that is not "optional") for civil peace to ensue.

The paper is only the prescription. The subjects need only find the will to follow the correct prescription. Part of finding the will to do so -- is to come to a global understanding of the inherent superiority of the right prescription (above all alternatives).

In a related thread on the public hanging of a 16 year old girl, this idea that folks will always fight to get deserved justice is captured well in a few excerpts ...


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It was when Atefeh appeared before Judge Rezaii for a fourth time that she lost her temper - and also her life. In a rage she tore off her hi jab - a headscarf - and told the judge she had been raped and it was his duty to punish her tormentors, not their victim.
================

... and ...

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One of Atefeh's teachers said the authorities wanted to make an example of her: "She wouldn't take injustice from anyone, but the mullahs equate these qualities in a girl to prostitution and evil. They wanted to give all the girls and women a lesson."
================

And, while this young girl met an early demise for doing what it is which humans will always do (because of the fact that they're human), even the crowd who had watched the hanging -- began to seethe with intolerance for the mullahs. The talking point is that Shariah law is not good for humans, and also that humans -- even humans previously believing in Shariah law -- can discover that.

Because of this inherent human ability to find better ways of doing things, the best way to govern can be found to be, objectively, the best. And, though the price of freedom is eternal vigilance (individual humans have to first come to "know" about freedom and, upon knowing, they have to then come to "care" about freedom) -- the pathway to freedom is objective and discoverable.

Like a word that consummates a concept, a constitution merely consummates that knowable and objectively-correct path.

Ed

Post 104

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:33amSanction this postReply
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Ed, I don't mind if you abbreviate my name, but I would prefer Jon as my full name has no H there, and also it would help to avoid confusion between myself and Armaos. That being said, how do you submit to fund this "objectively best" government. Only asking for clarification.

Post 105

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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Sorry, Jon (for fudging-up your name).

As to your question of how to fund a minarchy, I say: user fees. Rich folks -- ie. smart people, who have something to lose -- would compete to pay for the police. And more of them, would give more money -- when they felt that there needed to be more cops.

It's just like the individual purchasing of insurance, only centralized.

Ed
[How does THAT sound?]

Post 106

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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LOL, it sounds like free-market anarchism to me! How is it different?

Post 107

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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"Ideally, a written constitution summarizes the reality of the political expectations of the governed and their government."

It is virtually impossible to gain the consent of 100% of the "governed". Constitutions NEVER create a contract between "government" and "citizens".

Post 108

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 8:39amSanction this postReply
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An Objectivist government is not strictly "rights protecting". If you think it is you are as self-deceitful as those religiously infected.

Avoiding a discussion of regulatory agencies does not make the issue disappear. If ANY activities will be licensed or regulated your limited government will perpetrate fraud on the American people, just like the current regime.

I thought that Objectivists placed a high value on honesty, but after reading the rationalizing excuses here I must admit that was an erroneous presumption.

Post 109

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 9:36amSanction this postReply
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An Objectivist government is not strictly "rights protecting". If you think it is you are as self-deceitful as those religiously infected.
Leo, what objectivist government are you referring to? To my knowledge none has ever existed, so you must be referring to a hypothetical government proposed by objectivists.
Avoiding a discussion of regulatory agencies does not make the issue disappear. If ANY activities will be licensed or regulated your limited government will perpetrate fraud on the American people, just like the current regime.
Who said there would be regulatory agencies?

I thought that Objectivists placed a high value on honesty, but after reading the rationalizing excuses here I must admit that was an erroneous presumption.
You are the one making unsubstantiated claims about regulatory agencies. You are asking us to defend something (the existence of regulatory agencies in an objectivist gov.) that I haven't seen mentioned here.



Post 110

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 12:39pmSanction this postReply
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Who said there would be regulatory agencies?

I posted this previously:

Here's a quote from an Objectivists site which describes the preferred government:
"No country today scrupulously respects our rights, and indeed many people do not understand what rights really are. A limited, rights-respecting government would have no welfare system and no forced pension-paying system like Social Security in the U.S. It would not have agencies with open-ended and vaguely defined regulatory powers. There would be no anti-trust law, nor zoning laws, nor anti-drug laws......"

But it would have some unmentioned regulatory agencies.   So, regulatory law is not counter to Objectivist thought. Unless your government operated from common law where all crimes have victims you'll have to structure it as a legal fiction.


Post 111

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
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Leo Gold, your conclusion does not follow logically from what is published on the website you quoted.

To say that under Objectivism, there would be no agencies with "open-ended and vaguely defined regulatory powers," does not imply that there would be agencies with "carefully defined" regulatory powers.

To say, "I do not want this Buick," does not necessarily imply that I want or need another Buick -- or even another car. To say to a woman, "I don't want to be in a relationship with you," does not necessarily imply that I'm looking for a relationship with anybody else -- or even a non-romantic friendship with her. To say, "I would hate to be shot," does not mean I would love to be knifed.

The error is in assuming that by rejecting one kind of thing, you imply that you want another version of the same thing. That does not necessarily follow.


(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 7/27, 2:06pm)


Post 112

Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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"To say that under Objectivism, there would be no agencies with "open-ended and vaguely defined regulatory powers," does not imply that there would be agencies with "carefully defined" regulatory powers."

SURE IT DOES! Why mention regulatory powers at all if there are to be no regulatory agencies.

Instead of dancing around the subject and giving illogical analogies why not state what regulatory agencies Objectivists would include in their limited government. What activities do Objectivists think should be licensed or regulated?

Post 113

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 4:47amSanction this postReply
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"To say that under Objectivism, there would be no agencies with "open-ended and vaguely defined regulatory powers," does not imply that there would be agencies with "carefully defined" regulatory powers."

SURE IT DOES! Why mention regulatory powers at all if there are to be no regulatory agencies.

Instead of dancing around the subject and giving illogical analogies why not state what regulatory agencies Objectivists would include in their limited government. What activities do Objectivists think should be licensed or regulated?

Leo, if an anarchist says that there is no need for a coercive government, by your logic (if you can call it that), he is arguing for government (just one that isn't coercive). Otherwise, why mention government?! Do you see why you aren't making any sense? I would be a little more tolerant of your logical errors if you didn't start hyperventilating and accusing everyone here of advocating regulatory agencies. Simmer down.



Post 114

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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Jon Fauth wrote:
"Leo, if an anarchist says that there is no need for a coercive government, by your logic (if you can call it that), he is arguing for government (just one that isn't coercive). Otherwise, why mention government?! Do you see why you aren't making any sense? I would be a little more tolerant of your logical errors if you didn't start hyperventilating and accusing everyone here of advocating regulatory agencies. Simmer down."



That doesn't answer my questions. The fact that members here are unable discuss the regulatory powers of their proposed government shows a basic lack of knowledge of that which they advocate.

I have never said there is no need for "coercive government". I've argued against government, period. That makes your conclusion flawed nonsense.

By proving that the Objectivist proposed government must operate from a position of fiction and fraud I've debunked the fantasy that limited government is moral.

Now, your comment regarding your ability to know if someone, you have never seen, is hyperventilating, that seems to be just another example of dishonesty prevalent among Objectivists on this list.

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Post 115

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 10:29amSanction this postReply
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I have never said there is no need for "coercive government". I've argued against government, period. That makes your conclusion flawed nonsense.

Leo: "What kind of regulatory agencies would an objectivist government have?"

Objectivist: "It wouldn't have any regulatory agencies."

Leo: "You just used the phrase "regulatory agency"! You are obviously in favor of regulatory agencies!"


Please point out where someone on this thread advocated regulatory agencies.


Post 116

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 12:17pmSanction this postReply
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Yeah, Leo. What Jonathan said.

Please point out where someone on this thread advocated regulatory agencies.

Ed

Post 117

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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Leo: "What kind of regulatory agencies would an objectivist government have?"

Objectivist: "It wouldn't have any regulatory agencies."


Objectivists on other lists disagree with you. And, while confessing to being immoral, at least they're honest enough to admit it.

So, there won't be any trafic laws or driver's license?

You're only fooling yourself.

Here's another quote from the site containing the proposed government:

"In both civil and criminal realms, law functions by providing clear standards for determining which actions and interactions among people are consistent with individual rights."

Someone or a group within that government will be authorized to determine "which actions and interactions among people" are appropriate. Sounds like regulations to me. Those actions deemed appropriate will be legal and those actions deemed inappropriate will be illegal.



Post 118

Friday, July 28, 2006 - 9:08pmSanction this postReply
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Leo,

================
Someone or a group within that government will be authorized to determine "which actions and interactions among people" are appropriate.
================

If it's objectively determinable, it's demonstrable.

Get it?

Ed

Post 119

Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 7:37amSanction this postReply
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"If it's objectively determinable, it's demonstrable."

Rationalizing nonsense.

Controlling human behavior via a centralized government amounts to a few (via their OPINION) telling the majority what's allowed and what's not. That's the same situation that exists with the current government. Objectivists just want to rule on a smaller scale via the same fraudlent structure. Fraud is your goal.

Advocating a limited, yet fraudulent, government gives tacit approval to the regulations emanating from that government.



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