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Post 60

Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 5:17pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt Eichert wrote:

"market anarchism does not afford even that minimum protection. It is protection goes to the highest bidder only."

That couldn't be farther from the truth. What gave you that idea?

Containing Danger without Enslaving Citizens
By Stefan Molyneux, MA

One of the great challenges of anarchistic philosophy is the challenge of prisons, or the physical restraint of violent criminals. I have dealt with this topic once before, but I am still receiving numerous requests for clarifications on how a stateless society might deal with violent criminals. So - let us examine the punitive mechanisms that might exist in the absence of a coercive state system.

Firstly, we can assume that in the absence of a state, private protection agencies (called here DROs, for Dispute Resolution Organizations) will necessarily band together to deny the advantages of a modern economic life to those individuals who egregiously harm their fellow citizens. Such necessities as bank accounts, credit, transportation, lodging, food and so on, can all be withheld from those who have been proven to have committed violent crimes. Also, in a stateless society, since there is no such thing as ‘public’ property, violent criminals would have a tough time getting anywhere, since roads, parks, forests and so on would all be owned privately. Anybody providing aid or comfort to a person convicted of a violent crime would face a withdrawal of services and protections from their own DRO, and so would avoid giving such help.

However, this solution alone has not been sufficient for some people, who still feel that sociopathic and violent criminals need to be physically restrained or imprisoned for society to be safe.

First of all, before tackling this issue, I would like to point out that if the problem of violent sociopaths is very extensive, then surely any moral justifications for the existence of a state become that much more untenable. If society literally swarms with evil people, then those evil people will surely overwhelm the state, the police, and the military, and prey upon legally disarmed citizens to their hearts content. If, however, there are very few evil people, then we surely do not need a state to protect us from such a tiny problem. In other words, if there are a lot of evil people, we cannot have a state - and if there are few evil people, then we do not need a state.

However, let us imagine what happens to a rapist in a stateless society. All general DRO contracts will include ‘rape protection’, since DROs will want to avoid incurring the medical, psychological and income costs of a rape for one of their own customers. Part of ‘rape protection’ will be the provision of significant financial restitution to a rape victim. (Women who can’t afford ‘rape protection’ will be subsidized by charities - or lawyers will represent them pro bono in return for a cut of the restitution.)

If a woman gets raped, she then applies to her DRO for restitution. The DRO then finds her rapist - using the most advanced forensic techniques available - and sends an agent to knock on his door.

“Good morning, sir,” the agent will say. “You have been charged with rape, and I'm here to inform you of your options. We wish to make this process as painless and non-intrusive as possible for you, and so will schedule a trial at the time of your earliest convenience. If you do not attend this trial, or testify falsely, or attempt to flee, we shall apply significant sanctions against you, which are outlined in your existing DRO contract. Our agreement with your bank allows us to freeze your assets - except for basic living and legal expenses - the moment that you are charged with a violent crime. We also have agreements with airlines, road, bus and train companies to prevent you from leaving town until this matter is resolved.

“You can represent yourself in this trial, choose from one of our lawyers, or we will pay for any lawyer you prefer, at standard rates. Also, as per our existing contract, we are to be allowed access to your home for purposes of investigation. You are free to deny us this access, of course, but then we shall assume that you are guilty of the crime, and will apply all the sanctions allowed to us by contract.

“If you are found to be innocent of this crime, we will pay you the sum of twenty thousand dollars, to be funded by the woman who has charged you with rape. We will also offer free psychological counseling for you, in order to help you avoid such accusers in the future.”

The trial will commence, and will return a verdict in due course.

If the man is found guilty, he will receive another visit from his DRO representative.

“Good afternoon, sir,” the agent will say. “You have been found guilty of rape, and I'm here to inform you of your punishment. We have a reciprocal agreement with your bank, which has now closed down your accounts, and transferred the money to us. We will be deducting double the costs of our investigation and trial from your funds, and will also be transferring half a million dollars to the woman you have raped. We also have reciprocal agreements with the companies that provide water and electricity to your house, and those will now be cut off. Furthermore, no gas station will sell you gasoline, and no train station, airline or bus company will sell you a ticket. We have made arrangements with all of the local grocery stores to deny you service, either in person or online. If you set foot on the street outside your house, which is owned privately, you will be physically removed for trespassing.

“Of course, you have the right to appeal this sentence, and if you successfully appeal, we would transfer our costs to the woman who has accused you of rape, and pay you well for the inconvenience we have caused you. If, however, your appeal fails, all additional costs will be added to your debt.

“I can tell you openly that if you choose to stay in your house, you will be unable to survive very long. You will run out food and water very quickly. You can attempt to escape your own house, of course, leaving all of your possessions, and try to make it to some wilderness area. If you do successfully escape, be aware that you are now entered into a central registry, and no reputable DRO will ever represent you. Furthermore, all DROs which have reciprocal agreements with us - which is the vast majority of them - will withdraw services from their own customers if those customers provide you with any goods or services. You will never be able to open a bank account, use centralized currency, carry a credit card, own a car, buy gas, use a road, use any other form of transportation - and gaining food, water and lodging will be a constant nightmare for you. You will spend your entire life running, hiding and begging, and will never find peace, solace or comfort in any place.

“However, there is an option. If you come with me, we will take you to a place of work for a period of five years. During that time, you will be working for us in a capacity which will be determined by your skills. If you do not have any viable skills, we will train you. Your wages will go to us, and we will deduct the costs of your incarceration, as well as any of the costs I outlined above which are not covered by your existing funds. A small amount of your wages will be set aside to help get you started after your release.

“During your stay with us, we will help you, because we do not want to have to go through all of this again with you in the future. You will take courses on ethics. You will take courses on anger management. You will take psychological counseling. You will emerge from your incarceration a far better person. And when you do emerge, all of your full rights will be restored, and you will be able to fully participate once more in the economic and social life of society.

“You have a choice now, and I want you to understand the full ramifications of that choice. If you come with me now, this is the best offer that I can give you. If you decide to stay in your house, and later change your mind, the penalties will be far greater. If you escape, and later change your mind, the penalties will be far greater still. In our experience, 99.99% of people who either run or stay end up changing their minds, and end up that much worse off. The remaining 0.01? Oh, they commit suicide.

“The choice is now yours. Do the right thing. Do the wise thing. Come with me now.”


Can we really imagine that anyone would choose to stay in their own house and die of thirst, unable to even flush their toilet? Can we imagine that anyone would choose a life of perpetual running and hiding and begging? Even if the rapist had no interest in becoming a better person, surely the cost/benefit of the options outlined above would convince him!

There will always be a small number of truly evil or insane people within society. There are far, far better ways of dealing with them than our existing system of dehumanizing, brutal and destructive state gulags, which generally serve only to expand their criminal skills and contacts. Also, it is important to remember that the existing state prisons have barely any evil or insane people in them! The vast majority of those in jail are nonviolent offenders, enslaved and in chains because they used recreational drugs, or gambled, or went to a prostitute, or didn't pay all their taxes, or other such innocuous nonsense – or turned to crime because state ‘vice’ prohibitions made crime so profitable!

Our choice, then, is between a system which removes the tiny minority of evil people from society, rehabilitates them if possible, and makes them work productively to support their own confinement - or a state system which spends most of its time and energies enslaving innocent people, while letting the evil and insane roam free

Post 61

Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
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I wholeheartedly agree with Stephen Maleneux's suggestions.  I agree that many of these solutions are tenable responses to the problems cited.  That said, there is a fallacy at work here, the same fallacy that plagued The Market for Liberty.
Firstly, we can assume that ... Such necessities ...can all be withheld ... All general DRO contracts will include ... DROs will want to avoid ...
This is an existential fallacy.  I agree that these things could be solutions.  In the absence of actual events, however, it is wrong to assert that they willTMFL started out with "could... could...." and gracefully slipped into "would... would... "

That is why I prefer to look at actual examples from the real world where 60% of the money spent on security and adjudication is spent in the private sector.


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Post 62

Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 6:28pmSanction this postReply
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What I do understand is that any regulatory laws would require your government to operate from a position of fiction, just like the current corporate US democracy. Did you ever wonder why political entities (cities, states, nations) incorporate?

Actually Leo just a correction here, only cities in the U.S. incorporate. Not states or nations.

I also don't understand what you mean by them operating from a position of fiction. Are these cities fictitious entities? Could you please elaborate?

Also, there are not multiple city entities within one city's borders. So you claim Objectivists don't get it, but I haven't heard a persuasive argument that multiple private police agencies could operate in the same geographical area without potential conflict of interests. The fact is people all the time have disputes, people everyday steal, rob, fraud others, if there is no objective due process to remediate these conflicts, then there is no reason why anyone would abide by any arbitrary private police entity when they could just go and hire another that is willing to listen to their view of what individual rights are. 

You go on about regulatory law but this is counter to Objectivist thought. Regulatory laws as they are commonly defined to be interfere into the free market.  A city establishing a police force, courts, and a nation establishing an army for self-defense, is not regulatory law.
 
Firstly, we can assume that in the absence of a state, private protection agencies (called here DROs, for Dispute Resolution Organizations) will necessarily band together to deny the advantages of a modern economic life to those individuals who egregiously harm their fellow citizens. Such necessities as bank accounts, credit, transportation, lodging, food and so on, can all be withheld from those who have been proven to have committed violent crimes.
 
This still doesn't address the problem of competing private protection agencies. Why would they band together and monopolize force (which by the way is essentially the definition of government) if one stands huge monetary gains by competing with a different entity? This is precisely where the problem is.  You can't allow for competition on the use of force.  We don't always know when someone is a violent criminal. It requires a due process to figure out somone's guilt or innocence when a crime is commited. Hence due process is established by means of police and courts. You say criminals should be denied any advantages to modern economic life, which is to say as long as you first don't commit a crime, buy some land, a farm, preferably one with a pond of fresh water, you are then free to commit as many crimes as you want because afterall, you can sustain yourself just fine on the property you already accumulated. Unless you forcibly take what they already have, there is no incentive for the criminal to not just take what they want. (Not to mention, since when did criminals care about being denied the advanatages of modern economic life? They just simply take it by force)

And the most disgusting thing I've read:

However, let us imagine what happens to a rapist in a stateless society. All general DRO contracts will include ‘rape protection’, since DROs will want to avoid incurring the medical, psychological and income costs of a rape for one of their own customers. Part of ‘rape protection’ will be the provision of significant financial restitution to a rape victim. (Women who can’t afford ‘rape protection’ will be subsidized by charities - or lawyers will represent them pro bono in return for a cut of the restitution.)
Folks make no mistake. This is exactly what anarchists think. It's not good enough to imprison rapists, you'll just get "compensated" for your rape. And if you're poor? You're just SOL. Find a charity and stop complaining about being a rape victim, you should've signed your DRO contract.



“Good morning, sir,” the agent will say. “You have been charged with rape, and I'm here to inform you of your options. We wish to make this process as painless and non-intrusive as possible for you, and so will schedule a trial at the time of your earliest convenience. If you do not attend this trial, or testify falsely, or attempt to flee, we shall apply significant sanctions against you, which are outlined in your existing DRO contract.
Well that's funny, I didn't know criminals cared one bit about contracts. So why not a competing DRO that sanctions rape? Which DRO shows up at the door? The one the rapist hired, or the victim hired?

“Good afternoon, sir,” the agent will say. “You have been found guilty of rape, and I'm here to inform you of your punishment. We have a reciprocal agreement with your bank, which has now closed down your accounts, and transferred the money to us. We will be deducting double the costs of our investigation and trial from your funds, and will also be transferring half a million dollars to the woman you have raped.
HA! Yeah I forgot, rapists are millionaires that have half a million lying around in a bank account. Are you kidding me? This is repulsive. And to assume every private business entity would comply with a DRO contract without the threat of force is fantasy. Or that they wouldn't find a competing DRO agency that the criminal has no existing contract with. The only recourse is to deny them services. Yet how exactly do get people to comply with a contract when no threat of force is taken? How do you successfully deny them services when anyone can just turn around, and start their own DRO company, sign on a few businesses, (maybe even business run by rapists and child molestors) and get started with the criminal activity.

Anarchism is probably the most vile idealogy I've ever heard.



 




Post 63

Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 8:53pmSanction this postReply
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John-
Trees -> forest. Yes, only some of the examples (e.g. conscription, community standards for obscenity) have had explicit SCOTUS cases for them while some others have not been heard (or heard yet) by the court. Changing my statement about the court explicitly intrepretting constitution badly to also include not hearing cases and just allowing bad laws to stand does not bode any better for a constitutionalist view. The big picture - what I was originally responding to Ed about - is that writing a clear constitution isn't the problem, making a government adhere to it even when clear is.


Post 64

Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 8:59pmSanction this postReply
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Aaron fair enough. I would agree with that. Certainly just a document isn't enough. It also requires a culture receptive to the ideals of individualism. But I think a better written Constitution would help to a certain extent.

Post 65

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 12:10amSanction this postReply
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Could anarchism and limited government without taxation (minarchism) ideologies both be rationalistic stepping stones to get people on the fringe to participate in the creation of a world government? Ever here of the Emerson quote "to hit the mark, aim above it..."?

Both of these require incredible levels of self responsibility, which is very rare in society.

 Lol, look at the american people right now, they don't even know what freedom is and they think they are being attacked because of their freedom.




Post 66

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 5:20amSanction this postReply
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In Post 52 John Armaos wrote: "... and please reference the relevant Supreme Court decisions." And in Post 54 John Armaos wrote: "...this response from you is bunk. Since you cited these cases, the burden of proof is on you not me."
I believe that in Posts 51 and 53, Peter Reidy did supply enough information for the intellectually curious investigator who is not familiar with the basic history of Objectivism.

Henry Mark Holzer was Ayn Rand's personal attorney.  He also relied on a Ninth Amendment defense when representing a conscript.  See http://www.henrymarkholzer.com/  --  "The Selective Draft Law Cases were decided by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1918, the year World War I ended. These cases were the only time, ever, that a direct challenge to conscription's constitutionality reached the High Court. (In the Sixties, during my representation of a Massachusetts college student, I challenged the draft on the basis of the Ninth Amendment, but the Supreme Court refused to hear the case)."

Another ready hit to the Wikipedia came via Google.  Not suprisingly, the Wikipedia article on conscription also cites Ayn Rand:
Despite the Supreme Court's ruling in Arver, some people (such as Ayn Rand in her 1967 article, "The Wreckage of the Consensus") continued to argue that the draft was prohibited by the Thirteenth Amendment.
... In 1918, the Supreme Court ruled that the World War I draft did not violate the United States Constitution. Arver v. United States, 245 U.S. 366 (1918) ([7]). The Court detailed its conclusion that the limited powers of the federal government included conscription. Its only statement on the Thirteenth Amendment issue that had also been raised was:
Finally, as we are unable to conceive upon what theory the exaction by government from the citizen of the performance of his supreme and noble duty of contributing to the defense of the rights and honor of the nation as the result of a war declared by the great representative body of the people can be said to be the imposition of involuntary servitude in violation of the prohibitions of the Thirteenth Amendment, we are constrained to the conclusion that the contention to that effect is refuted by its mere statement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States

Clearly, Oliver Wendell Holmes ("the Yankee from Olympus") had few problems interpreting the Constitution in ways that allowed the expansion of the state.  (He also supported involuntary sterilization.) In fact, the very interpreting of the Constitution was itself the ploy of a Federalist.  Nothing in the Constitution empowered the Supreme Court to strike down laws.  That fact supports Aaron's assertion that even a clear and unambiguous constitution is not necessarily a barrier to people who want to expand their political power.

I agree that it was perhaps disingenuous of Peter Reidy to obliquely cite his sources and then back away from full engagement.  However, I have done the same thing.  While time is money, my focus is on the time, not the money.  Either way, however, I accept that Peter Reidy did point to the facts, and I for one found them readily enough.

Allow me to suggest that that exchange underscores the limitations of debate.  John Armaos might have won a debater's point, but apparently denied himself the opportunity to discover several somethings he did not know.  The failing is not just John's.  We all are given to this, I myself no less, and I take the hint.


Post 67

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 5:51amSanction this postReply
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In Post 41, Ed Thompson thought aloud: "I believe that if we wrote a better Constitution (one that regulates no commerce and explains 'general welfare') and we stuck to it (just like we all feel like doing) -- that we would be pretty much problem-free, in constitutional minarchy.
Why is this such a difficult concept for anarchists to "get"?
Well, Ed, we all know that Galt's Gulch was a functioning anarchy.  They had no president or assembly or constitution, just a judge who was an adjudicator -- though no actual conflicts were cited.  That is all well and fine for us rational people.  What about everyone else?  That is the problem, isn't it?  How do you deal with people who do not want to go along to get along?

This summer, I suffered through an economics class taught by an admitted socialist (proudly admitted, at that).  Painful as it was, it had its high points.  Speaking about the offloading of costs into other sectors, the professor asked, "Do you think that corporations poured pollutants into the atmosphere because they were unclear about who owns it?"   At that point, I raised my hand and said that in the 19th century social activist judges ruled that the property rights of farmers were less important than the social benefit of railroads.  He said nothing.  So, I guess that left us in agreement.  Everyone else's right to property is violated by polluters -- and polluters are not unclear about that.  They just get (or got) away with it.   So, in Galt's Gulch, everyone was pretty happy to smell the furnaces and hearths and Dwight Sanders did not have to install scrubbers in his stacks.   Hell, he didn't even have stacks.   God forbid that Ragnar should find Ellis Wyatt adversely possessing the lefthand side of the property line.  None of that ever came up.  And with good reasons -- aside from the technical aesthetics of the novel as a mode of art.

In Robert Heinlein's Beyond This Horizon, everyone is openly armed with handguns.  It is a very polite society.  On the other hand, the London of Shakespeare and Newton and Pitt was no place to be unarmed, and not as a matter of politeness.  Until they "transported" (exported) their criminal class, London was a dangerous place.  Once the initiators of coercion were sent first to America and then to Australia, London's unarmed police force could maintain a semblance of order.

Ed, if you were my neighbor, I would be shocked at the thought of having to call for the police because of some action of yours.  If I had a problem, I would go to you.  If we could not resolve it, I would deal with that in some non-coercive way... but, then, you are a rational man.

What we are trying to figure out here is how to deal with the irrational people.

You want them to agree to a constitution.


Post 68

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 8:09amSanction this postReply
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Part A of Reply to Robert Bidinotto's Post #22
Robert, again, thank you for your efforts here.  You have invested a lot of hard thought in this over the years and I appreciate benefiting from that work.  While you will see that we have disagreements, please accept that these are differences of application derived from shared basic principles.  Many of your points will be left unchallenged.  You say, "... rather than accept government (horrors!), they are logically compelled ..." to which I could reply "... rather than abandon government (horrors!) they are logically compelled..."  I accept that you find solutions in govenrment for rational, not traditional, reasons.  Let us continue on that basis.
RB: There is a reason why anarchists have come to reject retribution. It's because they have discovered that to be objective, proportionate, and thus just, forcible retaliation against criminals requires a government: a final arbiter of law and the use of force. So rather than accept government (horrors!), they are logically compelled to reject retribution.
     "In responding to and resolving the criminal behavior of employees, organizations routinely choose options other than criminal prosecution, for example, suspension without pay, transfer, job reassignment, job redesign (eliminating some job duties), civil restitution, and dismissal...
     While on the surface, it appears that organizations opt for less severe sanctions than would be imposed by the criminal justice system, in reality, the organizational sanctions may have greater impact...  In addition, the private systems of criminal justice are not always subject to principles of exclusionary evidence, fairness, and defendant rights which characterize the public criminal justice systems. The level of position, the amount of power, and socio-economic standing of the employee in the company may greatly influence the formality and type of company sanctions.  In general, private justice systems are characterized by informal negotiations and outcomes, and nonuniform standards and procedures among organizations and crime types."

(Hallcrest Report cited in Introduction to Private Security, Hess and Wrobleski, West Publishing, St.Paul, 1982, 1988.)
The Hallcrest Report I: Private Security and Police in America by William C. Cunningham and Todd H. Taylor, Butterworth-Heinemann, Boston, 1985. ("This publication reports a 30-month descriptive research project performed by Hallcrest Systems, Inc., MacLean, Virginia, under a grant from the National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice.")
The Hallcrest Report II: Private Security Trends 1970 to 2000, by William C. Cunningham, John J. Strauchs, Clifford W. Van Meter, Butterworth Heineman, Boston, 1990. ("This publication, The Hallcrest Report II: Private Security Trends (1970 to 2000), presents the results of a descriptive research project performed in 1989 and 1990 by Hallcrest Systems, Incorporated of MacLean, Virginia, under a grant (89-IJ-CX-0002) from the National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice.")

RB:  In contrast to retribution, "prevention" -- the anarchists' preferred method of dealing with the threat of crime -- requires that the potential victim bear upon himself all the costs of crime ... turning his home into a high-tech fortress ... armored cars... 
That is no more valid than claiming that without government schools, each of us would be forced to bear the full cost of avoiding ignorance, with huge libraries, museums of art, paying for visiting lecturers to travel to our homes, etc., etc.  

The funny thing is that once I took a karate class, I stopped getting jumped in my old neighborhood. I never had to use it.  I have no armor in my 1990 Toyota Camry.  My only kevlar is in a pair of gloves, gauntlets, really.  Rather than a high tech fortress, I live in a 1920 farm house.  If I lived somewhere else, I might do something else. 

Criminals tend to prey on people in their own neighborhoods.  One exception to that is that female burglars tend to rob homes in other neighborhoods.  It might be because they are smarter than men, and it might be that they choose not to foul their own nests, as it were.  In any event, prevention of crime is more effective than chasing people after the fact.  For one thing, after the fact, the victim has already been violated.


Post 69

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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Part B, Reply to Robert Bidinotto's Post Number 22:

The governmentalist response to a problem is to rectify the past.  The agoric response to a problem is to plan for the future. 

The basic theory of "community policing" is that people feel safer in neighborhoods that are patrolled.  Patroling does not mean conducting "Terry stops" (frisks or pat-downs), but, often more importantly, organizing people (the citizens or their city government) to pick up the trash, to clear out vacant lots and unoccupied buildings.  Criminals tend to congregate in areas that seem neglected.  Shine a light on crime and you minimize it.  For about a generation, law enforcement has been moving away from the model of being "crime fighters" in the old sense of going hand-to-hand against criminals. That model did not actually work, anyway.  Rarely have the police ever responded to an alarm in time to catch criminals and when they do, it is most often because the perpetrators attempt to deeply hide, rather than to flee.
Robert Bidinotto asserted:  "Criminals, by and large, do far more damage than they can afford to pay back. Most criminals are low-skilled and thus low-income, while the costs of their crimes to victims are often huge, far-flung, and sometimes catastrophic."
That is not true.  See the above citation from the Hallcrest Reports. "Most" crimes are never reported, but are adjudicated privately.  The perpetrators can and do make restitution.  The "poor, low-skilled, low-income criminal" is common, but does not cause most losses.  Most losses are caused by large-scale operations, by criminal enterprises. 
  • Car-theft is a perfect example -- and a perfect example of where the private sector succeeds where the police fail.  Most car theft rings are busted by private cops working for  insurance companies.
  • The International Association of Auto Theft Investigators -- http://www.iaati.org/
  • The National Insurance Crime Bureau -- http://www.nicb.org/
 When it comes to "violent crimes" we have mostly government statistics, which are, at best, a crock of lies. The way that criminal justice works is that the police arrest the first most likely suspect -- when they arrest anyone.  Those people are charged with everything under the sun.  Then the bargaining begins.  Pick your statistics but the fact is that about 90% of all cases are pleaded, not tried.  People plead guilty to something they did not do, in order to avoid going to trial for something else. 

If you think that no innocent person would plead guilty to something they did not do, you forget the words of Dr. Floyd Ferris: The only power any government has is to crack down on criminals.  When there aren't enough criminals, you make them.  So, the police use drug laws as levers to get people to plead guilty to "violent" crimes they did not commit.  The police and prosecutors look good. The nominal "criminal" gets less time in prison. 

Robert Bidinotto has claimed -- not incorrectly -- that most people in prison are there for violent crimes, not for drugs.  That can be true depending on how you view and understand the statistics.  Most violent crimes (homicides, robberies, burglaries, rapes) are state offenses.  Drug laws are federal offenses.  So, it depends on which prisons and prisoners you tally.  And you have to take into account that people are in prison for crimes other than the ones they putatively commited.  So, the statistics can be misleading if you do not know how to interpret them.

Robert Bidinotto correctly identified a fact of reality:   Some crimes -- murder, rape, assaults -- inflict the kind of damage, physical and psychological, that can never be properly calculated or repaid.
I agree with that.  Some damages can never be repaid.  Some losses can never be recompensated.  We also know that retribution does nothing for the victim. However, alternatives do exist.  In the most basic sense, whatever repayment can be made, must be made.  Beyond that, there is this:

In June, my father called me to say that he'd heard about a program in Oregon that might help all of us: the Victim Offender Reconciliation Program (VORP), one of two hundred such services nationwide. In these programs-which are voluntary-criminals and their victims are united and a mediator encourages them to share their feelings. In most cases, the crimes are minor (petty theft, vandalism), but a small percentage do involve more serious offenses like rape and murder. The aim of the program is to help offenders come away with an understanding of the suffering they caused and a willingness to right the wrong. In turn, they agree to make restitution to the victim, beyond their court sentence.
http://www.vorp.com/articles/forgave.html
Forgiveness goes both ways: "Ronald Cotton forgave rape victim Jennifer Thompson for mistakenly identifying him as her attacker, sending him to prison for 11 years. Now, they are friends."  (This is a famous case with many citations, among them http://www.truthinjustice.org/jennifer-and-ronald.htm and http://www.innocenceproject.org/case/display_profile.php?id=06 and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/cotton/summary.html)

I ask you, Robet Bidinotto: What does your justice demand of Jennifer Thompson, the jury, the police, or the prosecutors?  If you know the facts in the case, you know that errors were made all along the way.  Who suffers, besides the innocent accused?  Does your code of justice not demand prison time for those people as retribution

What about these cases, where the authorities lie and stonewall on evidence:
The cases below are just a few examples of instances where evidence was uncovered despite long-running claims that it was lost or destroyed, and the evidence was eventually subjected to DNA testing that proved innocence.  http://www.innocenceproject.org/docs/LostDestroyedNational.pdf)  .

 These are not fleeting omissions that can be bandaided.  Just as the failure of Soviet agriculture was not merely a matter of a few bad years of weather, the problem of injustice is inherent in the nature of government criminal "justice."


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Post 70

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 8:29amSanction this postReply
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Part C: Reply to Post 22:

I agree with you that justice demands that criminals not profit from their crime.  The law of causality as applied to human relations demands justice.  To create a rational system of justice means dismantling the machinery of the state and thinking the problems through from the ground up. 

In fact, the way that criminal justice works now, the victim is out of the loop as soon as they make a call to 9-1-1.  They become only a "witness."  The victim cannot refuse to testify.  They cannot "drop" the charges.  The victim is only another piece to be inserted into a product being constructed along a conveyor belt of processes.  If you want to fix that, Robert Bidinotto, you need to build a new theory and application of criminal justice.
RB: They also inflict damages on the loved ones and friends of immediate victims that are similarly huge, but intangible.
We have no rational theory of secondary consequences.  When a burglar breaks into my home, everyone in the neighborhood feels unsafe.  How far that circle of unease extends is arguable.  In the information age, anyone can know every day about almost every midemeanor in almost any town.  Other people insulate themselves from their neighbors and figure than none of it is their concern -- assuming that they know about "it" at all.  I am currently taking a class in public communications ("speech") and I listen to half a dozen stories twice a week, some of them sorrowful.  Does that make me a secondary victim of the perpetrator?  Perhaps it does.  If you believe so, Robert, then you might want to create a more rigorous presentation, perhaps for New Individualist.


Post 71

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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In any event, prevention of crime is more effective than chasing people after the fact.
Wouldn't incarcerating people who don't follow the rules be included?


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Post 72

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
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Reply to Kurt Eichert's # 43:
KE... as long as you murder or rob people without any money and who have no DROs protecting them, no one would care ...
That is pretty much the way things are now. 
  • Poor neigborhoods do not get much police protection. 
  • As individuals, poor people are victimized more often than the affluent.
The history of policing has been something of a pendulum.  Realize that the "police" only go back to Robert Peel's London Metropolitan Police Force in 1829.  There were watches and patrols going back to the first cities, thus the Biblical Watchtower magazine, but police qua police were a 19th century invention.

In America, police departments like London's were created in New York and Philadelphia.  At first, the police guarded "the city" at large, but within a generation came to focus on protecting the rich -- especially against the poor. Once voting became universal, city government underwent a change.  It is not for nothing that both cities and their police are organized by "precinct."  The rich hired private police.

After the era of political patronage, came the era of professionalism.  August Vollmer in Berkeley created mototcycle cops, relied on the first polygraphs, and eventually required college education of his police.  His students included O. E. Wilson who tried these new ideas on the Omaha department before taking them to Chicago. 

Just as the political patronage system had its problems, so, too, did "professionalism" create new barriers to effectiveness.  The police were separated from the community.  Shift work was a big part of that.  It physcially separates the police from "civilians" in the most effective ways possible.  Being assigned to precincts outside your own neighborhood was another method.  The stereotypical flat-faced stare was developed and encouraged to maintain visible distance in the eyes of the public. 

Then came "community policing" advocated by Dr. Robert Trojanowicz of Michigan State University.  That undid much of the damage caused by the short-comings of "professionalism."  Among the inherent problems with community policing is that it seems to make the police into "social workers" while they are still attracted by the lure of being "crime fighters."
KE: It is protection goes to the highest bidder only.
The point is, that in the last 160 years, every model of policing has had inherent problems, and ignoring the poor is not limited to the marketplace.  In fact, that argument is a fallacy and is used by socialists who fear that without government, the poor would not have food or clothing or post offices or national parks
KE: ... the minarchist view that government exists to protect citizens against force being initiated against them is equal rights under the law ...
That is the reason why we have to examine the "Soviet agriculture" model of policing.  Right now, the people who call the police the most get the most service... whether they "need" it or not, because need is the only standard.  Everyone pays in according to ability -- via taxation on property; sometimes via city income taxes -- and everyone draws out according to need.  How else could it work?

Let us assume a (magical) system of payment for government services that is non-coercive.  How do you shell out the loot?  Who decides how much the courts get?  Within the courts, how much do you pay your public prosecutor and your public defender -- and who decides? -- by what standard?  Do all police patrol officers get paid the same?  Do you get paid more for more arrests?  You can see where that leads, but then is there no incentive to do a better-than-minimal job?

KE:  However, under this system, lacking the money to provide for DRO protection means you are SOL, creating "anarchy" areas where anything goes.
For most of the 19th century (America's greatest period of near-laissez faire capitalism), most cities had no police.  City policing took off after the Civil War, when blue uniforms became socially acceptable.  If you read a "Horatio Alger" story, you learn that the police were no one's friend, certainly not the hard-working plucky boy of American myth.  Andrew Carnegie and Thomas Edison were not protected by the police as children so that they could prosper as adults. 


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Post 73

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 9:19amSanction this postReply
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JF: Wouldn't incarcerating people who don't follow the rules be included?
In a rational society, it might be.  I am not convinced that incarceration works -- or that if it did work (again, arguable) that in our day it is the best solution.  We can "tether" people all kinds of ways and with electric doggie barrier technology, we can keep them "in line" and still let them "run around." 

Incarceration creates "crime universities" where perpetrators teach and learn.

Most basic is the absolute fact that while guilty of something, most people in prison are not guilty of the crime for which they were sentenced.  Many of them were guilty of something else, but too many were guilty of nothing at all. 

The "Soviet agriculture" model of criminal justice has not produced much justice.


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Post 74

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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MM - You make some good points, but I am not convinced that 100% private is the answer - but I am convinced a much higher % of private would be valuable. 

Task #1 would be to eliminate the drug war - this has to account for 50%++ of all law enforcement efforts, and the whole system should be up for a 50%+ down-sizing.  That is just for starters.


Post 75

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
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Most basic is the absolute fact that while guilty of something, most people in prison are not guilty of the crime for which they were sentenced.  Many of them were guilty of something else, but too many were guilty of nothing at all.
True, but hypothetically consider someone who is definitely guilty. I personally do not believe incarceration is a deterrent, because what makes most people criminals, is their inability to think about the consequences (they lack impulse control). But I would favor isolating those who have demonstrated they are threat, from the rest of society.


Post 76

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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An excellent last few posts. Though I think retribution has a place, you make some great points MEM about current problems with incentives, incarceration, and treating crimes as against the state instead of the victims.


Post 77

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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John Armaos wrote:
"Actually Leo just a correction here, only cities in the U.S. incorporate. Not states or nations."

Actually cities followed the lead of the nation and states. Corporate government is a fact. [citing In re Merriam's Estate, 36 N.E. 505, 141 N.Y. 479, affirmed U.S. v. Perkins, 16 S.Ct. 1073, 163 U.S. 625, 41 L.Ed 287] "The United States government is a foreign corporation with respect to a state."

John Armaos wrote:
"I also don't understand what you mean by them operating from a position of fiction. Are these cities fictitious entities? Could you please elaborate?"

All corporate governments are abstractions. They are impossible to define and have no standing in any legitimate court. Have you ever damaged an abstraction? Did one ever appear in court? As I'm sure you know, abstractions are mental realities. Doesn't an individual accused of a crime deserve to face his accuser? It is impossible to face an abstraction because it's a legal fiction. The only way to prosecute a regulatory crime is to convert an abstraction to a legal "person". That's a fraudulent perversion of justice.


John Armaos wrote:

You go on about regulatory law but this is counter to Objectivist thought. Regulatory laws as they are commonly defined to be interfere into the free market. A city establishing a police force, courts, and a nation establishing an army for self-defense, is not regulatory law.

Here's a quote from an Objectivists site which describes the preferred government:
"No country today scrupulously respects our rights, and indeed many people do not understand what rights really are. A limited, rights-respecting government would have no welfare system and no forced pension-paying system like Social Security in the U.S. It would not have agencies with open-ended and vaguely defined regulatory powers. There would be no anti-trust law, nor zoning laws, nor anti-drug laws......"

But it would have some unmentioned regulatory agencies. So, regulatory law is not counter to Objectivist thought. Unless your government operated from common law where all crimes have victims you'll have to structure it as a legal fiction.

Post 78

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 12:10pmSanction this postReply
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quote: This is an existential fallacy.  I agree that these things could be solutions.  In the absence of actual events, however, it is wrong to assert that they willTMFL started out with "could... could...." and gracefully slipped into "would... would... "

That is why I prefer to look at actual examples from the real world where 60% of the money spent on security and adjudication is spent in the private sector.

I don't view this as a major objection. Wouln't you expect DRO's to have a severe penality for those convicted of violent crimes? And, also severe penalties for those who evade penalties? If a DRO failed to apply and follow through with penalalties;  or, if the rehabilitation of violent offenders was not effective, isn't it logical that people would avoid seeking their services. Those DRO's that successfully applied penalties and rehabilitation are the DRO's that would sought out by individuals and businesses alike.

It, of course, is all theory. There's no guarantees, just logical conclusions.

Here's another article regarding violence:
 Anarchy, Violence and the State

Does more government equal less violence?

By Stefan Molyneux, MA


When the subject of anarchy comes up, the most common objection to a stateless society is that violence will inevitably increase in the absence of a centralized state. This is a very interesting objection, and seems to arise from people who have imbibed a large amount of propaganda about the nature and role of the state. It seems hard to imagine that this conclusion could ever be reached by reasoning from first principles, as we will see below.

There are several circumstances under which the use of violence will either increase, or decrease – and they tend to resemble the basic principles of economics. For instance, people tend to respond to incentives, and tend to be drawn to circumstances under which they can gain the most resources by expending the least effort. Thus in the lottery system, people respond to the incentive of the million dollar payout by expending minimal resources in the purchase of a ticket.

There are several circumstances under which violence will tend to increase, rather than decrease – and interestingly enough, a centralized state creates and exacerbates all such circumstances.

Principle 1: Risk
Economically speaking, risk is the great balancer of rewards. If a horse is less likely to win a race, the gambling payout must be higher in order to induce people to bet on it. By their very nature, speculative investments must produce greater rewards than blue-chip stocks. Similarly, white-collar criminals generally face less physical risk than muggers. A stick-up man may inadvertently run up against a judo expert, and find the tables turned very quickly – while a hacker siphoning off funds electronically faces no such risk. In general, those interested in taking property by force will always gravitate toward situations where the risks of retaliation are lower.

One of the greatest ways of reducing the possibilities of retaliation is through the principle of overwhelming force. If five enormous muggers circle a 98 pound man and demand his wallet, the possibilities of retaliation are far lower than if the 98 pound man approaches five enormous men and demands that they surrender their wallets.

Clearly, the existence of a centralized state creates such an enormous disparity of power that resistance against government predations is, in all practicality, impossible. A man can either stand up to or move away from the Mafia, but can do almost nothing to oppose expansions of state power.

Thus we can see that the existence of a centralized state creates the following problems in regards to violence:

   1. The use of violence tends to increase when the risks of using that violence decreases

   2. the The risks of using violence tends to decrease as the disparity of power increases

   3. there There is no greater disparity of power than that between a citizen and his government

   4. therefore there is no better way to increase the use of violence than to create a centralized political state


Principle 2: Proximity
Using violence is a brutal and horrible task for most people. Most people are not physically or mentally equipped to use violence, either due to a lack of physical strength, a lack of martial knowledge, or an absence of sociopathic tendencies. However, the government has enormous, relatively efficient and well-distributed systems in place to initiate the use of force against (usually) disarmed citizens. Thus those who wish to gain the fruits of violence can do so by tapping into the government’s network of enforcers, without ever having to direct thely witness or deploy violence themselves.

It can be generally said that the use of violence tends to increase when the visibility and proximity of violence tends to decrease. In other words, if you can get other people to do your dirty work, more dirty work will tend to get done. If everyone who wished to gain the fruits of state violence had to go on and hold their own guns to everyone's everyone’s heads, almost all of them would end up refraining from such direct brutality.

Thus in the realm of proximity as well, the existence of a centralized state tends to both the distance and hide the effects of violence from those who wish to gain the fruits of violence – thus ensuring that the use of violence will tend to increase.

Principle 3: Externalization of Costs
In a stateless society, it is impossible to “outsource” violence to the police orf the military, since they do not exist. With the government, however, those who wish to gain the fruits of violence – i.e. tax revenues, the regulation of competitors, the blocking of imports and so on – can lobby the government to enforce such beneficial restrictions on the free trade and choices of others. They will have to pay for this lobbying effort, but they will not have to directly fund the police and the military and the court system and the prison system guards in order to force people to obey their whims. This “externalization of costs” is an essential ingredient in the expansion of the use of violence.

For instance, imagine if you are a steel manufacturer who wants to block the imports of steel from other countries – can you imagine how expensive it would be to build your own navy, your own radar system, your own Coast Guard, your own inspectors and so on? And even if you found it economically advantageous to do all that, could you guarantee that none of your competitors would do the same? Would still be economically advantageous if you ended up getting into an arms race with all of your fellow manufacturers? And what if your customers found out that you were using your own private militia to block the imports of steel – might they not take offense at your use of violence and boycott you? No, in the absence of a centralized state that you can offload all the enforcement costs to, it is going to be far cheaper for you to compete openly than develop your own private, overwhelming and universal army.

Thus in any situation where the costs of using violence can be externalized to some centralized agency, the use of that violence will always tend to increase. Offloading the costs of violence to taxpayers will always make violence profitable to specific agencies within society – whether private or public. And so, once again, we can see that the existence of the state will always tend to increase the use of violence.

Principle 4: Deferment
How much do you think you would spend if you knew that you would be long-dead when the bill came due? This is, of course, the basic principle of deficit financing – the deferment of payments to the next generation – which is perhaps the most insidious form of taxation. Forcibly transferring property from those who have not even been born yet is perhaps the greatest “externalization” of costs that can be imagined! Naturally, the risks of retaliation from the unborn are almost nonexistent – and neither is any direct violence performed against them. Thus the principle of “deferment” is perhaps one of the greatest ways in which the existence of a centralized state increases the use of violence.

Principle 5: Propaganda
It is well known in totalitarian regimes that in order to get people to accept the use of violence, that violence must always be reframed in a noble light. Government violence can never be referred to as merely the use of brute force for the material gain of politicians and bureaucrats – it must always represent the manifestation of core social or cultural values, such as caring for the poor, the sick, the old, or the indigent. The violence must always be tucked away from conceptual view, and the effects of violence elevated to sentimental heights of soaring rhetoric. Furthermore, the effects of the withdrawal of violence must always be portrayed as catastrophic and evil. Thus the elimination of the welfare state would cause mass starvation; the elimination of medical subsidies would cause mass death; the elimination of the war on drugs would cause massive addictions and social collapse – and the elimination of the state itself would directly create a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk nightmare world of brutal and endlessly warring gangs.

A pPropaganda is different from advertising in that all that advertising can ever do is get you to try a product for the first time – if the quality of the product does not meet your needs or expectations, then you will simply never buy that product again. Propaganda, on the other hand, is quite different. Advertising appeals to choice and self-interest; propaganda uses rhetoric to morally justify the absence of choice and self-interest. Advertising can only stimulate a one-time demand; propaganda permanently suppresses rationality. Advertising generally uses the argument from effect (you will be better off); propaganda always uses the argument from morality (you are evil for doubting).

The private funding of propaganda is never economically viable, since the amount of time and energy required to instill propaganda within the mind of the average person is far too great to justify its cost. In a voluntary system like the free market, paying for year after year of propaganda (which can only result in a ‘first time’ purchase of a good or service) is never worth it. Propaganda is only “worth it” when it can be used to keep people passive within a coercive system like state taxation or regulation. For instance, here in Canada, socialized medicine is always called a “core Canadian value”, and can be subject to no rational, moral or economic analysis. (Of course, if it really were a “core Canadian value”, then we would scarcely need to state to enforce it!) Because the existing system is so terrible, it takes years of state propaganda – primarily directed at children – to overcome people's people’s actual experiences of the endless disasters of socialized medicine. Propaganda is always required where people would never voluntarily choose the situation that the propaganda is praising. Thus we need endless propaganda extolling the virtues of the welfare state, the war on drugs and socialized medicine, while the virtues of eating chocolate cake are left for us to discover and maintain on our own.

Government propaganda is primarily aimed at children through state schools, and primarily takes the form off an absence of topics. The coercive nature of the state is never mentioned, of course, and neither are the financial benefits which accrue to those who control the state. Children do hear endlessly about how the state protects the environment, feeds the poor and heals the sick. This propaganda blinds people to the true nature of state violence – thus ensuring that state violence can increase with relatively little to no opposition.

Government propaganda is primarily delivered through state schools, which parents are forced to pay for through taxation. Thus a ghastly situation is created wherein the taxpayers are forced to pay for their own indoctrination – and the indoctrination of their children. This “externalization of cost” is perhaps the greatest tool that the government uses to ensure that increasing state violence will be subject to little or no opposition. No corporation or private agency could possibly profit from a 14-year program of indoctrinating children – the state, however, by pushing the costs of indoctrination onto parents, creates a situation where the slaves are forced to pay for their own manacles. And as we all know, when slaves don't don’t resist, owning slaves becomes economically far more viable.

For the above reasons, it is clear that the existence of a centralized state vastly increases both the profit and the prevalence of violence. The fact that the violence is masked by obedience in no way diminishes the brutality of coercion. All moralists interested in one of the greatest topics of ethics – the reduction or elimination of violence – would do well to understand the depth and degree to which the existence of a centralized state promotes, exacerbates and profits from violence. Private violence is a negative but manageable situation – as we can see from countless examples throughout history, public violence always escalates until civil society is utterly destroyed. Because the state so directly. P profits from violence, eliminating the state can in no way increase the use of violence within society. Quite the contrary – since private agencies do not profit from violence, eliminating the state will, to a degree unprecedented in human history, eliminate violence as well.


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Post 79

Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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In reply to Michael's posts addressed to me (#68-70), on "retribution": some time ago I published an essay addressing this issue at length. Another related essay can be found here.

If you grasp what I have written, and what Michael has written, you will see a classic confrontation of an argument from justice, vs. an argument based on utilitarianism, respectively. Curious...since the core anarchist position against government was supposed to be that government is immoral. But to defend anarchism, anarchists are obliged by the logic of their anti-governmental premises to reject any morally proportionate response to criminal acts, and to embrace instead a market-driven one: an approach that subordinates proportionate justice to cost-benefit considerations, and thus allows most criminals to face consequences far, far less severe than they deserve (if any). Even on utilitarian grounds, how this leniency is supposed to deter or thwart criminals, is never explained.

The argument here is going in never-intersecting circles, and won't be resolved by a further series of dueling entries, which will soon be archived and forgotten by all. Besides, I've written on and debated both the moral and empirical issues concerning government, anarchism, and criminal law exhaustively in the past; see here, then scroll down to the subhead "Anarchism vs. Limited Government. Furthermore, those interested specifically in my views on crime and our alleged "criminal justice system" are invited to go here, then scroll down to the subheading "Crime and Law."

Let me just state for the record that in rejecting the fantasy of "market justice" (an oxymoron), I do not defend the current legal status quo. May I point out that anarchism and liberalism do not exhaust the logical alternatives.


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