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Post 20

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
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The reason is that no matter what you may think now of the difficulty, it is always possible to change what man has invented (government).  Ayn Rand made this very clear (though I cannot find the quote) in saying that things done by man can be changed - they are not the same as say, the laws of biology or physics, which cannot be changed no matter what one wished.
Kurt, I think you are referring to the essay "The metaphysical vs. man-made" in Philosophy: Who Needs It?


Post 21

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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Hi Michael,

Interesting post, #19.

My problem with the idea of the European Civil War is that we don’t find a unified Europe that broke into contest, as we find America was unified prior to her ‘civil’ war. I see “unity prior to contest” as essential to the concept of civil war. Very interesting angle, though.

Regarding our own ‘civil’ war, you are correct that “The South did not want to control the North from Washington DC.” Or from anywhere else, either. But it isn’t complete to say, “They were not two groups arguing over the same geography.” Because there *were* two groups, the North and the rebels, who competed for control over the southern geography.


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Post 22

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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Regarding Michael's post #19 (go back and reread it):


"Retribution" is the act of exacting justice against a wrongdoer, i.e., a response commensurate with the harm done to the victim -- a response that visits back upon the victimizer harm proportionate to what he has caused.

There are both moral and practical reasons for retribution, as I indicate in my various articles refuting anarchism. Moral, because it upholds the vital principle of causality in human relationships: that we should treat people according to the good or evil they have caused. Practical, because reflecting proportionate harm back onto a victimizer defeats his aim, which is: to gain something at someone else's expense.

In contrast to retribution, "prevention" -- the anarchists' preferred method of dealing with the threat of crime -- requires that the potential victim bear upon himself all the costs of crime (see again Michael's post #19): buying alarm systems, electric fences, patrols, and generally turning his home into a high-tech fortress, and defending his person with the purchase of weapons, karate classes, body armor, armored cars, bodyguards, etc. We are not to focus on punishing criminals after the fact; we are not to reflect proportionate harm back onto evildoers; we are simply to try to make it harder for them to hurt us. And if they manage to hurt us anyway? We are simply to endure it, let them get away with it, then spend more on improving our "defenses."

There is a reason why anarchists have come to reject retribution. It's because they have discovered that to be objective, proportionate, and thus just, forcible retaliation against criminals requires a government: a final arbiter of law and the use of force. So rather than accept government (horrors!), they are logically compelled to reject retribution.

In rejecting retribution, Michael -- like most contemporary anarchists -- is actually rejecting any just, proportionate response to evil -- because that is exactly what "retribution" means. Calling retribution "irrational" -- or equating it with "vengeance" (which is personal, emotion-driven, and often DISproportionate retaliation) -- amounts to calling justice itself irrational. It amounts to writing justice out of the list of Objectivist virtues...and Ragnar and Judge Narragansett out of Atlas Shrugged.

Note that the moral priority for anarchists is not really the protection of the individual right to life, but rather, the obliteration of government. Note that in any case in which the protection of individual rights requires a government, they are happy to sacrifice those rights in order to get rid of government. And note that in any case in which someone (or some nation, like Israel) seeks self-defense through retribution and retaliation, anarchists inevitably denounce him as an "aggressor."

Exaggeration? Go to anarchist scum-sites such as LewRockwell.com and Antiwar.com, and observe who they constantly attack as "aggressors," and who they sympathize with as "victims." The moral inversion you will see is utterly consistent with the preceding argument.


P.S. Let me add something in anticipation of a counterargument. Many anarchists proclaim that the alternative to retribution is "restitution" -- getting the criminal to pay back the victim for the harm done. While the idea is nice in principle, there are several practical problems.

1. Criminals, by and large, do far more damage than they can afford to pay back. Most criminals are low-skilled and thus low-income, while the costs of their crimes to victims are often huge, far-flung, and sometimes catastrophic.

2. Some crimes -- murder, rape, assaults -- inflict the kind of damage, physical and psychological, that can never be properly calculated or repaid. They also inflict damages on the loved ones and friends of immediate victims that are similarly huge, but intangible.

3. There are costs to the community generally from the predations of criminals: costs in fear of a lack of safety, in adopting preventive measures, in altering routines, perhaps even in moving to a safer place.

4. Some anarchists (e.g., economist Bruce Benson) argue that in the face of these intangibles, the victims of criminals must be willing to give up retribution and accept some reasonable financial settlement, in the interests of keeping the peace. When pressed, they make it clear, however, that victims will be compelled to accept the "settlement" offer -- and that should they seek to employ retaliation instead, the private "protection agency(ies)" will use force to keep the peace. Need I point out that this option transforms "private protection agencies" into de facto governments, using force to compel non-participants to accept their arrangements? Need I also point out that the underlying premise of this utilitarian argument is that "social peace" trumps individual rights?

5. Finally, there are the many intractable problems of enforcing restitution arrangements:

a. Criminals will certainly not show up to work and pay restitution if they are allowed to run free on the streets: most will skip town, or simply thumb their noses at the "private collection agency."

b. Suppose the miscreant refuses to comply. Under anarchism, who has the moral right to enforce such a judgment, anyway? The very term implies the use of coercion. Who is the enforcer? What degree of coercion is appropriate? What are the limits? Who decides?

c. What profit is there for a private company in pursuing most criminals? Who pays them, and how? Are crimes to be addressed, and criminals pursued, on the basis of justice -- or of utilitarian, cost-benefit analyses?

d. If the criminal is to be confined in order to work off his debts, under what conditions is he to be held? Who would have the right, under anarchism, to set and enforce standards of treatment, or penalties for non-compliance?

e. If criminals are to be confined in private, secure work facilities, how is the system to sustain itself financially? Since the criminal's labors would not only have to pay for his own food and housing -- plus the whole system that catches, tries, and holds him -- what would be left over for "restitution" for his victim(s)? How could a private collection company possibly make money via restitution...apart from a governmental legal system that has the ultimate power to lower the boom on a criminal if he refuses to comply, or tries to flee?

Clearly, policies such as restitution and prevention are inadequate to address the problems of crime and criminals. Worse -- they are utilitarian strategies intended to evade the one policy that only a government can enforce: retributive justice.

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 7/14, 1:51pm)


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Post 23

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:39amSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer wrote:
I see a problem with a world government. For one thing, if the government becomes oppressive, where are you going to go? For another, a world government would remove any incentive... Under multiple governments...
What makes a government? How small an entity can have autonomy? Can I have "State of Michael?" Can you be "The Republic of William"? Why not?
I don't understand this. How could there be a State of Michael or a Republic of William, unless it involved the right to enforce one's own rules of conduct against other people? But in that case, one's "government" would not be limited just to oneself; it would involve others as well, for if it did not involve others, then it would be meaningless to refer to it as a "state" or "republic."
If many smaller governments are better than one biggest of all possible, then where do you draw the line?
You're talking about forming a government from scatch, right? Well, it's somewhat arbitrary. Theoretically, you could have governments that were quite small - the size of a city state, for example. But there must be a common code of laws that is respected and enforced within a given geographical area. Otherwise, you have war. And those laws must demand a respect for individual rights, including the right of original property acquisition that is based on the application of productive labor to a natural resource. For example, no one can be allowed simply to demarcate an area of land, claim it as his own and arbitrarily exclude whomever he chooses. A proper government can recognize only original titles to land that is acquired by transforming virgin territory into a usable good or service.
To me, as an anarchist, and being intellectually honest, as an Objectivist, I agree with the one-worlders. If there is to be a government, then it should be global and constitutionally limited. But, as Dwyer points out, it would only be a matter of time... and there would be no place to go... which is one of the failures of any theory of government. What would allow a constitutionally-limited world government would be an intellectually active globally enacted philosophy of reason.
There is another problem with a world government. How would it be administered? Would we have worldwide elections? Here, I see a logistical problem. Smaller states are more manageable; they can be better and more easily governed, and they are more responsive to their electorates.
Philosophy comes first. In advocating "anarchy" (so-called), I only point out what is, not what I dream should be.
I don't follow you. What do you mean, "point out what is"? To be sure, there are some places in the world that exist in a state of anarchy, but most people today live under a government. And if you advocate anarchy, then why don't you believe it "should" exist?

I wrote, "I don't see war as a problem, so long as it is understood that no government may properly attack another - that the only proper use of violence in international affairs is self-defense." Michael replied,
Well, William, there have been some bold exceptions, such as the Mongol Horde, but, basically, most so-called "attacks" were in fact only a "retaliation" to a previous injury. Those who launch wars will be happy to explain that to you. In fact, check out today's CNN for a continuing drama of misery that must be 5000 years old, if it is 50.
Are you suggesting that anyone who launches a war is justified in doing so, because he can rationalize it as a retaliation for some previous attack? I don't think that follows. Were the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 justified?
What makes a government? Does it have to have control over a contiguous geography?
Yes.
If so, then Hawaii properly is not part of the United States.
I agree that ideally Hawaii should be able to function as an autonomous state.
Who would rule the Dodecanese Islands, except that each would be independent, and Long Island granted statehood within the American Federal union?
I have no problem with this. My point is only that, for practical reasons, one needs some kind of common law within a given geographical community.

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 7/14, 10:42am)

(Edited by William Dwyer
on 7/14, 10:46am)


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Post 24

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 12:40pmSanction this postReply
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Well said Bill, and Robert. Anarchism is a dangerously stupid idea. I'd also like to add;

As a rule, a new government ought not to be formed unless it is freer, less collectivist/statist in nature, than the one it replaces. Hawaii seceding from the Union, and considering the popular political opinions there, in my opinion would not mean Hawaii becomes any freer from a secession. In fact there is a movement there to bring back a constitutional monarchy to Hawaii with racial preferences for native Hawaiians. So a geographical area cannot secede from a government to form a more oppressive government. Unless the Hawaiians are trying to establish a laisseiz-faire Capitalist system with the government protections for individual rights that goes along with that, they have no right to secede.

For example, in the American Civil War, the South was not justified in seceding from the Union to continue the practice of slavery, a vile and disgusting heinous crime against humanity.

But Bill, Robert, I wouldn't try too hard in persuading Marotta against anarchism. I've already tried that and he quips back with some pop pseudo-psycho-analysis that we were all harmed as children. He's clearly got his tin foil hat on. And it's people like that, that give the Libertarian party such a bad name.

Post 25

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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quote  Okay, Chris, what's the alternative? Anarchy? You think that's better? You think that a society in which anyone who wants to can make his own laws and enforce them is superior? There's already a term for that. It's called "civil war."

You argue that there's never been a government limited to defending people's rights. Excuse me, but there's never been a society of any kind, with or without a government, limited to defending people's rights. Neither has there been a society limited to recognizing individual rights. Is that an argument against trying to establish such a society? No? Then the fact that there's never been a government limited to respecting people's rights is no argument against trying to establish such a government.

The whole problem is that you act as if it is as easy as making an omelet. I would love to see a limited government happen. How do you do it?

A "civil war" condition exists only when people initiate force against others. If nobody initiates force, then there is no war. A "civil war" can happen with or without a government.


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Post 26

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Bill Dwyer wrote (quotes in reverse order from original):
And those laws must demand a respect for individual rights, including the right of original property acquisition that is based on the application of productive labor to a natural resource.
What else is needed?
But there must be a common code of laws that is respected and enforced within a given geographical area. Otherwise, you have war.
Why? If two set of laws are written differently with one set applying to some people in an area and the other set applying to others within the same area but both respect individual rights why must there be war?
How could there be a State of Michael or a Republic of William, unless it involved the right to enforce one's own rules of conduct against other people?
Are these "rules of conduct" something other than "respect the rights of others"? If so, would they not be a violation of rights?

If proper law is objective then it is discovered and not subject to the subjective whims of elections. Of what use are elections in a POG (proper Objectivst government)?

Post 27

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 3:37pmSanction this postReply
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If proper law is objective then it is discovered ...
 
If this is an original statement it is brilliant (and it's still brilliant even if it isn't original)

Sam


Post 28

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 7:24pmSanction this postReply
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Rick wrote

(Bill) But there must be a common code of laws that is respected and enforced within a given geographical area. Otherwise, you have war.

(Rick)Why? If two set of laws are written differently with one set applying to some people in an area and the other set applying to others within the same area but both respect individual rights why must there be war?


Do you honestly have to ask that question? You don't think a bunch of random subjective laws would lead to anarchy? How are these laws enforced if there is no uniformity? How could a subjective system of laws possibly respect individual rights? That doesn't make any sense, if individual rights are absolute, and objectively derived, then laws to protect those rights can only be objectively applied to ensure individual rights are protected. That's why we're all equal under the law because if one violates the right of the other, the due process is the same for each individual.

If person (x) violated the right of person (y) in the same geographical area, which police, which court system, which law applies? When person (y) sends his hired police to go after person (x), but person (x) hires his police to protect him from arrest, then you have anarchy. Who decides whether someone's right was violated or not?

Seriously, what is with you anarchists? Are you guys one fry short of a happy meal?

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(Edited by John Armaos
on 7/14, 7:28pm)


Post 29

Friday, July 14, 2006 - 9:20pmSanction this postReply
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Bill Dwyer,

No doubt there are problems with the world government scenario.  But let me just explain the contradiction that I am wrestling with: a world of multiple governments IS an ANARCHIC world order.  Period.  The same problems of anarcho-capitalism are merely diverted to a more wholesale, collectivized level in the multi-state world.  There is no ultimate arbiter of international disputes - it's ENTIRELY might makes right.  Sure you have a few treaties and things like the Geneva convention and the U.N., but at the end of the day any teeth and enforcement those institutions have is determined by which country or alliance has the most clout.  (I just thought of this, actually: a treaty is by definition merely a contract without a third party enforcer).

By making the argument that multiple governments are needed to keep one another in check, where people can choose to go to another nation, you're basically making a market type of argument.  In essence, you already are advocating for competing defense/contract enforcement agencies. You simply think that in this form the situation is preferable to what it'd be like under anarcho-capitalism.  You're probably right. 


Post 30

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 8:32amSanction this postReply
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Pete said:

No doubt there are problems with the world government scenario. But let me just explain the contradiction that I am wrestling with: a world of multiple governments IS an ANARCHIC world order.


Not if all the governments are classic liberal democracies that respect individual rights, i.e. US, Europe, Japan et al.

Historical fact, no two free republics (classic liberal democracy) has ever gone to war with each other. Only governments that are totalitarian in nature initiate force.

Historical fact, two countries that trade with each other extensively, don't go to war with each other. Just not in their interests.

Economic interdependence, which is one reason why free trade is so important, stops wars.



Post 31

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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"Historical fact, no two free republics (classic liberal democracy) has ever gone to war with each other."

Offhand-
1812 - USA and UK
1861 - USA and CSA
1941 - UK and Finland

Of course we could avoid these and others by tightening the definitions, effectively making no countries on earth considered classic liberal democracies.

Trade is inversely correlated with war, representative government is somewhat inversely correlated with war, but there's not really a good 'always' or 'never' statement from that.


Post 32

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:38amSanction this postReply
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Offhand-
1812 - USA and UK
1861 - USA and CSA
1941 - UK and Finland
In 1812 and 1861 the US did not allow women to vote and blacks were still slaves, though it was well on its way to being a nation which respected individual rights and had a representative government, it certainly was not yet.

And from R.J. Rummels site -

Finland was collaborating with Nazi Germany against the USSR, which invaded Finland in '39. Two, no real hostilities broke out between the UK and Finland. It may have been a "declared" war, but they did not "go to war" in the understood sense. These were hardly normal, democratic peaceful times in the world, both countries being caught between totalitarian, murderous regimes bent on world domination, run by madmen.



Post 33

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 10:01amSanction this postReply
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1898 - USA and Spain ?

Post 34

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 10:28amSanction this postReply
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A popular poster on Rummel's site posts this in his blog:

from - http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1121320184.shtml

The most important document he linked to my mind was this 1998 paper by James Lee Ray from the Annual Review of Political Science. In it, Ray notes that the Democratic Peace Theory--the notion that democracy in and of itself is a potent force for peace, and that no two democracies have ever gone to war with each other--is the best-supported theory in political science today. It reviews exhaustively all the arguments for and against the theory, and gives dissenters their due.

The paper is heavy reading, but completely worth it if you want to understand this theory.

The main section of the paper to draw my attention was the part that addresses the most common objection raised by Dean's World readers: that it's difficult to define "democracy." This is fully laid to rest in Ray's paper. While acknowledging that there is always some imprecision in these things, a working definition accepted by political scientists who endorse the Democratic Peace Theory amounts to (assuming I'm reading it properly):

1) The nation must hold competitive elections. To be defined as competitive, there must be at least two formally independent political parties (or similar groups).

2) 50% or more of the adult population must be allowed to vote.

3) Those in legislative and executive power must have been put into place by said elections.

4) There must have been at least one peaceful, constitutional transfer of power between independent political parties.

Nations which do not meet all four conditions might be considered proto-democracies or emerging democracies or republics, but would not be considered democracies until they met all four conditions.

This is fairly stringent, but quite workable. It fits most of the nations we typically consider democracies--Canada, the U.S., India, Japan, most European nations, Australia, Brazil, Chile, and so on. It would also exclude nations that most people would recognize as "debateable," including

Afghanistan, Egypt, Iraq, Pakistan, and Palestine. These could be considered proto-democracies or emerging democracies, but they have not yet proven themselves truly to be democracies. It would also completely rule out places like Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, or Iran.

Note that it would also allow us to easily tell the difference between democracy and liberal democracy, for to be considered a liberal democracy the vasty majority of adults must be eligible to vote, and freedom of political speech and press must be enshrined in the system of law. Thus the

United States, for example, would not have qualified for "liberal democracy" status until the 19th amendment was ratified to give women the vote (and it didn't fully meet the promises of liberal democracy until it guaranteed the franchise to blacks some 40 years ago).

Note also that Ray gives a commonly-accepted poli-sci definition of "war"--an armed conflict with at least 1,000 people killed in battle. Some would object to this, but the fact is that you have to choose your definitions somewhere if you're going to quantify an argument. This is what the political scientists use, and so we use it here.

Ray notes, as do Rummel and many others, that if you accept those two definitions, then there has never been a war between two democracies. Sporadic violence, yes, but surprisingly little even of that. But war? It's never happened.
 
Ever.


Post 35

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 4:16pmSanction this postReply
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quote 1898 - USA and Spain ?

 Spain was very backward at the time and an absolute monarchy at the time.

The most obvious example of course is anything involved with the Third Reich. It was a democracy. Hitler was chancellor, and there was a democratically elected parliament. The parliament then gave him absolute powers.

It's quite educational. Hitler really was the last natural step of democracy on its inevitable road to self-destruction. Everything he did was legal.

Every democracy has and will lead to Hitler or someone like him. I like to use the term post-democratic society to describe the Third Reich. It's what inevitably happens with democracy, because all democracies are based on bribery, deceit, corruption, and fraud.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 7/15, 4:19pm)


Post 36

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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William Dwyer wrote: "If we want peaceful, harmonious relations, then a government - a single, enforceable code of laws - is necessary..."
See the Law Forum.  I created a new thread for Intenational Law and the US Supreme Court.  From that initial post:
Law, like commerce, is becoming not just increasingly global -- but inherently so.  Foreign courts file amicus briefs in U.S. Supreme Court cases.  ... We expected the world to adopt our institutions -- and they have.  Now, they are exporting to our courts, worthy and competitive "products" (laws and opinions about them) of their own.
A single codex might have served Napoleon.  That might not be best for a free society.


Post 37

Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 5:51pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto wrote:
In rejecting retribution, Michael -- like most contemporary anarchists -- is actually rejecting any just, proportionate response to evil -- because that is exactly what "retribution" means.

Robert, I truly appreciate the effort you have invested in your posts.  My weekend schedule does not permit an immediate reply, and it has been too long already in a medium where interactive speed is expected and silence is a signal. 

Your cogent exercise in explaining constitutionalism is not to be wasted, I assure you.   I will come back to the problems with the (constitutional) governmentalist proposition -- and I stress that because I know that that is the form you are advocating.  It is senseless for me to quote Plato or Kant or Franklin Roosevelt or Robert Mugabe and pin their ideas to you.  We are working within the same (rational) context here -- and I will keep my replies within that framework.  By the same token, I enjoy reading Lew Rockwell on occasion, but neither he nor I write for the other.  You might as well condemn Lysander Spooner or Benjamin Tucker or pick something questionable from Rose Lane Wilder or Leonard Reed. 

Proportionate response to evil is exactly what comes from non-governmentalist responses to crime.  (Citations follow...  more later)


Post 38

Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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Thanks, Jonathan - that was it.

Brilliant, Robert B.


Post 39

Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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Actually, there are many of what can be called "global rule sets" that govern behavior among states.  These are, as stated, primarily about dealing with trade.  Economic enforcement is a powerful and non coercive incentive.  In this manner, a non-coercive "world government" - for example the G8 meetings, and all that, actually does exist and will grow more powerful.

i.e. if you want your country to join in prosperity, obey the rules (and there will be considerable wrangling of a non-violent nature as time goes on within these rules, for example lobbying against ag subsidies) or be left out.

STILL - that does not obviate the need for force - we do need the policeman to keep the criminals regimes in line - or better yet, get rid of leaders who would do that to their people.

This is all ground being covered NOW as we speak - change is taking place as we speak.

It is true of today's world that war is changing and is limited to these actions against rogue regimes or transnational terrorists and the like. 

Historic note - UK and Finland in WW II was largely formal - UK was vs. Nazis and Finland was fighting the Russians who had attacked them - each happened to have a convenient alliance with one evil power vs the other one.  Don't believe it ever came to blows (or to any serious extent, that is).

That is why as long as China and US are huge trading partners, war is simply not going to happen.  Thats why I say relax the guarantee vs Taiwan (which they dont need to invade anyway - they is HUGE Taiwan-China trade) and get rid of that useless political hot potato - only useful for warmongers on both sides - and instead get them to help us tackle NK.


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