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Friday, November 18, 2005 - 10:15pmSanction this postReply
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This is an open letter to Orion Reasoner.

Orion (or whoever you may be),

I just read an amazing piece of literature that you penned on another website. You denounce Solo harshly as an organization that "truly has no shame" and that:
They are greasier and more dishonest than any postmodernists, subjectivists, or liberals out there who they so fanatically yet hypocritically denounce.
What is strange to me is that you cannot stop reading the stuff - and apparently can't get enough. I know of at least two pseudonyms that you have used to post on Solo since you left.

I normally don't respond to this kind of crap, unless it is as comedy, but I will make an exception here.

From what I can discern, your main beef is that you were somehow persecuted on Solo and your reputation was "maliciously sabotaged" by you being branded as an anti-Islamic genocidist. Still, I wonder how a person can have a reputation "maliciously sabotaged" when nobody knows who he (or she) is. Your pseudonym has been tainted, dude. Not you. And certainly not because anyone I know of actually believes you seriously advocate genocide. It is because of the level of horseshit you bring to your posts.

You start to say some intelligent things, then off you go into paranoia-land. Pure persecution delusions. Do you do drugs, or what? Coke and crack do wonders on inducing paranoia. Since your own paranoia seems to flare up suddenly, then go away suddenly, then flare up again, and so on, I wonder...

I remember my first contact with you back in September of last year. It is a good memory. I was still in Brazil and it was right before I came back to the USA. I made a total of 4 posts back then and two of them were to you. (I only started posting regularly to Solo in mid-February of this year.)

You had written a very good article called "The Secret Truth about Islam" which I found extremely instructive - principally as I had been married into a Brazilian-Arabian family during 5 years of my life. I saw that culture up close, but never delved into the Koran. You article was more than helpful in putting some of my past into perspective. I am sorry that this article has been deleted.

As time went on, I eventually uncovered the threads and articles where you had problems with posters. Frankly, I had never seen such a display of irrational invective on an Internet forum as I did coming from you. What a spiral  downhill! You say you were run off Solo as a genocidist. I say you were run off because of your mouth. You couldn't control a decent level of discourse and your arguments descended into the idea-less and mere insults - nothing more.

I do sympathize with you, however, about how a crowd tends to gang up on a person and completely misunderstand his words - then bait, mock and taunt. That has happened to me more than once around here. But you are mistaken if you think that Solo has a monopoly on this. Crowd psychology is valid for practically all groupings of human beings. People get mean in groups. That's just the way people are. Not just Islamic people either. All people.

I wish you had had the emotional stability to deal with it back then. I know from experience it is tough, since there has even sprouted a hate MSK club over here that I have to swat once in a while. But if you look at these things closely, Orion (or whoever), you will discover that what looks like a group is usually a very small number of ring leaders. Most people are too busy to get involved, unless it is to throw in a couple of cents one way or the other and then go back to their own lives and concerns.

I don't agree with your evaluation that Solo has turned anti-Muslim in your absence. I, for one, am anti-religion and I hammer that message home every time I see one of those preachers or missionaries who sometimes show up trying to sell Judaism, Christianity or whatever as superior to Islam. The issue is faith against reason. No other.

The anti-Islam thing has been in the news a lot recently, so it has reflected in a few articles and poster comments. Certainly not because anyone was stealing your ideas or those of anyone.

I see nothing at all productive in your insults of Joe and Linz. You have your opinion of them and they certainly have their opinion of you. I have had my own disagreements with both of them at times, yet somehow we all managed to survive. I have a deep appreciation and admiration for their achievement - Solo - and frankly, Orion (or whoever), I haven't seen you do anything at all towards building a forum or vehicle for Objectivist ideas. I just see you bitch and try to sneak in the back door.

I sincerely believe that the shared goal of making a rational reason/emotion connection has superseded all of my own differences with Linz, Joe and some others around here - on both sides. That should have been your case, too, but you could't hack it. Just not up to snuff. The focus here is on Objectivism and Sense of Life, as given in the name.

You wrote "They ran me off -- as they've run off Firehammer, Stolyarov and many others before me -- so that they could claim my words and ideas as their own!"

Frankly I didn't see anybody around here adopting Regi's views on homosexualism or Stoly's conservatism after they left. Solo simply went on its merry way doing its merry thing - without those who left. Even without you.

Rejection hurts. It hurts everybody. I don't believe that the intent is to hurt, but the result is always that. Solo itself has been hurt by rejections at times. Nobody is immune. Thus most of your derogatory evaluations in your rant sound a great deal like sour grapes to me.

For the record, a few comments about the people you cited and insulted.

Matthew Graybosch and Andrew Bissell are anything but "hypocritical toadies." They are fine-thinking intelligent young men who have their own minds and a great deal of integrity. One thing you can count on with both of them - they will be honest with you and they will think deeply about their views when they respond. Thus if they rejected Orion, he/she was duly rejected. No faking.

The Ethan SOLO Secret Spy things is merely humor. I can't for the life of me see anything more than that. Ethan has even had the good grace to engage you on the forum where you post and let slide a HUGE amount of filth from your mouth - and I believe that you guys even entered some kind of understanding.

Joe Maurone is a tangential thinker who is far from a moron. He is well read and extremely intelligent.

Sarah House is not an Objectivist, but she has one of the finest minds and souls of anyone I have ever encountered - and I only know her online from Solo.

Your insults of all these people say much more about you than about them.

But now we come to me. I am anything but a saint, that I can assure you. People say I'm a nice guy until they cross me or become highly hypocritical and smarmy. Then they complain that I don't "turn the other cheek" like they thought I would.

Anyway, I don't mind your boneheaded comical comments about me. (I do admit "Buddhaliciously pompous approval" has a certain ring to it.)  But you went somewhere with your comments on Kat that is not a good place at all. You showed your loneliness and bitterness and meanness of spirit - and especially substance cravings from what I can see. I've been there and all the signals are in place with you.

I sincerely advise you to give up any addictions you have. Look at what they do to you. If you do not have a serious monkey on your back, I apologize for the comment - but that would make you a completely despicable human being. In my mind, I prefer you as a junkie. It has more dignity.

One of the things I respect, admire and salute about Regi and Cass is the love they hold for each other. I may disagree with all else, but not that. It is too rare to find it and it must be cherished, otherwise it goes away. I venerate that kind of love and they are both so damn fortunate to have it. What they have - and what I have with Kat - is too sacred for you to understand. If you did, that would be the one thing you would not denigrate - ever. I am sincerely sorry that you are so lonely. All I can say is that the highest in love is possible on earth, here and now, and nothing compares to it. It is one of the greatest prizes life rewards you with when you get it right. I hope you find yours someday.

(I also wonder if that is what makes you hate so much.)

About Solo, there are simply too many high-quality articles on file at Solo (more than 1,500) to take your comments on quality seriously. More sour grapes. Want proof? How about your own words?
"If SOLO had even a shred of conscience, they would now be apologizing to me, and actually begging for my forgiveness, considering the horrific way they have deliberately conspired to maliciously sabotage my reputation.  But they haven't.  And they never will... because no such shred exists within them."
How about begging to take you back, too?

Orion (or whoever), one thing is not clear to you, but is clear to so many, many readers. The kind of rant and foul-mouthing you engage in does not bother people, really. At first they feel bad for you, rarely offended. But then a change takes place over time. I have seen this in posts, not only on Solo either. Their attitude about you transforms from victim to fool. You become the court jester. You bellow to make them laugh. Is that your intent?

Now one final comment. I must take issue with your last statement.
It is my sad and horrific duty to report that SOLO, as an organization, and all its people, are rotten to the bone and a menace to the Objectivist community.  
(sigh)

One more aspirant to the title of ONE OF THE ELITE OWNERS OF OBJECTIVISM. Sorry, dude. It ain't you. It ain't that little old former-TOC ARI lady who doesn't like me. It ain't Rand's heir. It ain't nobody around here or over there where you're at. It ain't nobody in particular.

We all are the nonexclusive owners of Objectivism - at least those who have the courage to pick it up and live it.

Michael


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Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 5:09amSanction this postReply
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I think Orion meant to say MSK is "bootilicious" .... just a minor spelling error in that damn fine rant of his.  LOLOLOLOLOL

Kat
Property of MSK.  If found, please return to the kitchen


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Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
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So, now I'm a "hypocritical toady", eh? To be honest, MSK, I was blissfully unaware of Orion Reasoner until you posted this open letter. I am almost tempted to ask him to explain why he has a beef with me, but it'd be like arguing with socialists on a Linux users' forum or trying to clean the Augean stables with rubber gloves and a snow shovel: not worth the effort.

Why waste time and words on Orion if he's just going to be bitter and whinge? I certainly don't want his forgiveness, or need it, though I appreciate you writing in my defense.

Post 3

Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 8:21amSanction this postReply
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Matthew,

You might have engaged him/her online while he/she was using the pseudonym of Celeste Norcross or Mary Merrie Twinkleberry. Thus he/she would have issues with you, but you would have no idea that you were talking to him/her.

There could even be more pseudonyms, but I am not aware of them. Still, the member list is full of weird names.

Michael



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Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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Michael, thanks for the defense...I confess, the attack irked me a little, at first...but then I saw his moron comment; then I knew I was dealing with the equivalent of a school yard tauting. C'mon, moron? People in six grade had better insults than a mispelling and mispronounciation of my last name!

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Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 10:23amSanction this postReply
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Michael, you weren't actually worried anyone cared what Reasoner had to say, were you?
Let him throw some rubber darts...who the hell cares?? 

And the band played on...


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Post 6

Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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MSK

I enjoyed your defense of SOLO.  Virtue deserves to be defended. (Although it was no one's duty to do so, nor was it required.)

I am new to SOLO and have always been well treated even when I disagree. 

Regi's response to Reasoner ( ...or I on Reason-er----is that what he is trying for??) was worth reading.


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Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Michael,

Thanks for your defenense and notice of my previous "discussions" with Orion on the other forum. I see that he'd dearly love for me to return and debate him there, which I have no intention of doing. I'll not enter the house of those I've disagreed with so stridently and presume upon them to listen to my defense of a place and people they don't particularly care for. In the end Orion has shown he is not interested in listening to anyone's arguments. He is talking to hear himself talk. His words speak volumes to his personality. Been there, done that. His riduculous attacks against various posters on SOLO and Linz and Joe Rowlands are baseless and boring.

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 11/19, 4:15pm)


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Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, have you learned nothing from the entire threads apparently devoted to attacking you?

When you devote time to postings which are focused primarily on other people or their personality or entire cumulative history of argument or deconstructing them (regardless of whether they deserve it), it is too personally (rather than idea) focused and you further lower the level of discourse on a site which should be devoted to Objectivism not personal criticisms. Elevating it to the level of launching an *entire thread* devoted to one minor person and his defects is even worse. It's like wasting time on gossip.

I know you -like- to do this sort of thing, emotionally, to strike back, to "get your licks" in. You keep doing this over and over and over again -- in fact you are one of the prime instigators of this kind of thing, even though you claim to be for civility.

Think about whether it is wise or brings credit to you...or to the image of Objectivism.

Phil

PS, when you are tempted to launch or respond in kind to a personal attack, follow the advice of Nancy Reagan:

JUST SAY NO.

(And yes, there is a commonsense difference between a personal attack and a minor, delimited factual or methodological criticism.)

JUST LET IT GO.


(Edited by Philip Coates
on 11/19, 7:55pm)


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Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa - No, I don't particularly care about that guy's comments - not enough to make an issue out of it. Where I get riled is when some smug cowardly little shit hides behind a series pseudonyms and an Internet connection thinks that this gives him the right to pop out of nowhere and insult the woman I love.

I would love to seem him physically stand in front of me and try to do that. I grew up in the South. They don't challenge you to a duel over honor any longer, but honor is still very much on the table.

Call it a man thing.

Ethan - Come out of the cold, did ya? I don't blame you. There has to be some kind of challenge - even if it is just a little - for the term "tradecraft" to mean anything at all.

Steve - Thank you for that. Yes, Regi's high-road response is well worth reading.

My particular thanks to Cass, if you read this. I know that there have been many disagreements and bad vibes Solo-wise. All that was before my time. I caught some of the acrimony at the end - and some fairly recent - but, still, I insist on seeing things with my own eyes. As I told you elsewhere, I prefer to focus on the areas where we agree than bump heads. Love-wise, you and Regi are simply beautiful.

Michael


PS - Phil - Are you discussing any ideas - or just people (me, for instance)? LOLOLOLOLOL... Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky...

Edit - Oops. Kat just pointed out to me that Phil actually was discussing ideas. Essentially, he was telling me about the virtues of turning the other cheek...

//;-)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/19, 8:07pm)


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Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 11:26pmSanction this postReply
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While I applaud the spirit of MSK's defence of SOLO here, I disagree with part of its content. And its necessity. "Orion" is clearly mentally ill, & his latest diatribe would have gone unnoticed had it not been raised on this site. I for one would have missed it, though I'm grateful for the entertainment.

In debunking Orion's self-evidently ludicrous & morbidly repetitive attack, MSK displays the same self-importantly deluded paranoia he faults Orion for when he says there's a "hate MSK club" on the loose here. That's just ridiculous. To be sure there are people, myself emphatically included, who disagree vehemently with his cheek-turning nonsense & his touchy-feely, approval-oriented approach generally. But that's all there are. People who disagree with him, as they disagree with other posters here (who also disagree with them). Hate?! Club?! MSK, get over yourself!

Linz

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Post 11

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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Come on, Linz,

I don't mind.

You can't please everybody. That's just a fact of life. That's not paranoia. That's reality. And some people are just hell-bent on misunderstanding you on purpose.

Poor Orion went into melt down because of those who went after him. Personally, I swat 'em.

(Oh, I forgot your complaint. That's not nice, is it?)

//;-)

Michael



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Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 8:25amSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I am glad you had someone edit/cowrite this with you.  It has resulted in a better outcome than would otherwise have been the case.

I'd like to echo Linz's sentiments ("While I applaud the spirit of MSK's defence of SOLO here, I disagree with part of its content.") but concentrate on a different portion of the content.

But you are mistaken if you think that Solo has a monopoly on this. Crowd psychology is valid for practically all groupings of human beings. People get mean in groups. That's just the way people are. Not just Islamic people either. All people.
I find it hard to believe that a 'mob' of Objectivists or kindred spirits would behave like any other 'mob'.



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Post 13

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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(Excuse me a sec, Orion...)

Robert D,

What on earth are you talking about?

Cowrite? Where did you get that idea? Because I mentioned that Kat made a comment to me? We haven't cowritten anything at all together - except for once. We wrote a delightfully playful piece on the beginning of our love.

Even then, we agreed on an outline, then she wrote her parts and I wrote mine. Sometimes she will offer suggestions about grammar if we are online messenging and I share something before I post. That was not the case here. She commented after the thing was up.

You just gave a perfect example of a person hell-bent on misunderstanding on purpose. I sometimes speculate on what that purpose might be...

If you don't think Obectivist mobs can be mean, then I guess all those stories I read about from various sources concerning Rand's break with the Brandens was nothing but collective exercises in benevolence.

How about all those people here who held Barbara Branden up as a saint - especially for her magnificent work, The Passion of Ayn Rand - and then decided she was scum from one minute to the next?

Yup. Objectivist mobs are just as mean as any when they get all lathered up. Mobs can get mean, period. All of them. But they usually have only a few ring-leaders. (Watch any number of Westerns to see how it works in practice.)

btw - Do you also echo Linz's sentiment (the hidden one) about whether the love between Regi and Cass is beautiful or not?

Or how about the love between James Kilbourne and Sergio?

Or how about the love between Nathaniel Branden and Patrecia, which was so great that he temporarily betrayed some deeply held basic values and completely renounced his highly successful way of life? He literally gave his all to that woman.

(sigh...)

//;-)

I know that Kat is having one hell of a time getting people interested in love over at the Romance forum. She even opened a Personals section that was loudly acclaimed, but there has only been one bite so far.

Seems like the people on Solo are more interested in other things. That is empirical fact, not opinion. They have more "solo" interests, I guess. But is being by yourself and eschewing love really a selfish thing - or is it just being lonely?

(Hint - you have to work at love just like anything else. There's the feeling and there's the commitment. You have to choose to honor it everyday.)

Personally, I love love. I celebrate it in my words and in my living. Call it a touchy-feely thing...

Michael



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Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I hope you and Kat are happy.  I don't care about the love affairs of others much or the subject in general.

I was interested in your comment about mobs and you've certainly given good examples to back your point of view.

This topic is worth pursuing.  How in the name of reality can Objectivists form ugly mobs?  A question worthy of the Sphinx.


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Post 15

Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Thank you very much for the well wishes.

I also am very interested in crowd psychology. It should be incompatible with a philosophy of rational egoism.

(There even I go with should instead of is.)

Michael


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Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
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Are you suggesting that in a rational world there would be no crowds? ...am not meaning there would not be aggregates of persons...

And by rational world, am referring of course a world full of rational acting persons...

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/20, 3:57pm)


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Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 5:10pmSanction this postReply
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Robert M,

I'm not suggesting anything of the kind. Just commenting on the nature of man.

We all feel hunger. We choose differently regarding what we eat.

There sure looks like there is a "go along with the crowd" urge in people. And differences in how we choose to respond to it.

Ethics and philosophy based on rational egoism can be of great aid - in theory, at least. From the looks of things, it doesn't always work in practice.

Wanna check premises, anyone?

Michael


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Friday, November 25, 2005 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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I suppose I should comment on the last bit of criticism that was written a few days ago on the other site.

For the record, I saw it.

(yawn)

It was simply not accurate - neither about me, nor about Solo, nor about Solo's directors, nor even about the other site's director.

Michael


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Post 19

Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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MSK: I also am very interested in crowd psychology. It should be incompatible with a philosophy of rational egoism
 
Interesting thing to look into. Crowd psychology, and the dark underbelly, looking at mob and riot behavior. It's a beast, man. The presence (and sometimes even pull) of it is always there, it is primal and it is not going away. And, I guess it shouldn't because there are positive aspects to it- there are things in it that allow us to function in groups, things that we have to have. Ah yes, good old herd mechanics.

We exist in a world that includes plurality, and a world that includes the exterior. Rational egoism is a viable, highly effective toolset for the world, but I do not think it can automatically be everything. That is one reason that attacking all things postmodern is not to one's advantage- it denies what is, it reveals a lack of understanding, or maybe a stubborn refusal to continue to want to understand. Or maybe it is the discomfort that comes when we think our efficacy is once again being challenged.    

Speaking more to purpose, it interests me to consider the differences when looking at group behavior under Internet forums. The difference, mainly, is that it is a deprived (and due to that, often more depraved :) environment. It is mostly words, ideas, tied to names. A very challenging way to communicate at any level beyond tactical information exchange (which is what the Internet was originally created for). It is much like operating under the same conditions that cause trouble for crack outside sales people when they have to do pure phone work- they can't see, smell, there is not much of the visceral left. We are animals, and rely on everything when we deal with others. Taking away so many of our tools will change results, and often not for the better.

So, if you think about it, operating under the deprived conditions surely has to affect the individual, and the group. There are the obvious things- inhibitions lowering, for instance. A more subtle consideration might be that different factions will form under the deprivation than they would in the face-to-face world.

Another consideration is that there are always different levels of consciousness, of evolution within mankind, existing simultaneously.

I have not found many answers for the problem, it is like trying to get an acoustic guitar to sound like and electric guitar- it's just not supposed to do that. The only thing I have found of any value is the application of grace and good manners, and that is hard enough for the best of us.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 11/26, 8:56am)


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