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Post 200

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 12:01amSanction this postReply
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That’s low word gaming, Bill, and you well know it.

“Well, the rapist didn't CHOOSE to have his victim try to kill him”

You don’t see how his choices created his pickle? You don’t see how the entire sequence is his doing, made by his actions and choices? Of course you do. Very low point for you, Bill.

“nor did he EXPECT that his victim would try to kill him”

He didn’t expect it, huh, Bill? You sure do know a lot about this rapist. “Look, if the rapist values his own happiness, which he does…” [Post 171]

And I see that you will not stop with the “under the Objectivist ethics” crap, despite chapter and verse provided by Ed and clear proof that the Objectivist ethics does not allow for this “emergency exception” you try to impute to it. Low, low, low.




(Edited by Jon Letendre on 5/27, 12:04am)


Post 201

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "Well, the rapist didn't CHOOSE to have his victim try to kill him”

Jon replied,
You don’t see how his choices created his pickle? You don’t see how the entire sequence is his doing, made by his actions and choices? Of course you do. Very low point for you, Bill.
Very well, let's say that a sailor embarks on a risky journey because he's an adventurous kind of guy and gets shipwrecked near a desert island, swims to shore, and realizes that he's in a real pickle -- a pickle created by his own choice to embark on the risky journey. And suppose he finds a house with some food in it. Would Rand then say that he should starve to death rather than steal the food, because after all, it was his own choice that created the pickle?

- Bill

Post 202

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Priceless comparison to breaking into a home in order to rape a woman.


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Post 203

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 4:33pmSanction this postReply
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Obviously this is a topic where emotions run high. And some of the examples are picked to exaggerate the emotional impact while sacrificing clarity on the topic. I find myself not agreeing with almost any of the positions offered, although for various reasons. I'd like to reformulate some of the positions in the hopes of offering how an outsider (myself) viewed the debate.

The essential question in the debate (which wasn't part of the original article/thread) was if you're in a life or death situation where you can only live if some innocent person dies, how does morality help guide your decision.

One position, which I believe Bill promotes and that I essentially agree with, is that morality is a tool for living. The principles, ideals, and moral guides are all tools aimed at promoting your life. Consequently, any generalizations based on "normal" contexts, like the belief you shouldn't kill innocent people, don't apply. The reason these generalizations are adopted in normal contexts is because they promote your life. They're not the foundation of morality. They're the consequences of it. It's life as the standard that justifies these moral guides in a normal context. And if they don't promote life as the standard in some other situation (emergency is an example), those moral guides are simply not justified.

There are a few arguments against this position, which I'll try to explain and then say why I find them unconvincing.

First, there's the assertion that discarding these moral principles or moral guides when they don't benefit you is a form of pragmatism. This sounds like a good argument. Pragmatism is bad right? Politicians are pragmatists, right?

The problem is that pragmatism is one half of a false-dichotomy, the other half being idealism. Pragmatism does not simply mean doing what is practical. If it did, Objectivist ethics would be pragmatic, since it is practical. Instead, pragmatism is not just a rejection of idealism. It is actually a rejection of moral principles. It's a range-of-the-moment decision making that won't bother to anticipate likely consequences of your actions because that's just theory. I wrote more here:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/Rowlands/The_Idealism-Pragmatism_Dichotomy.shtml

The short of it is, it is a false dichotomy. Objectivist ethics shows that moral principles need not be self-destructive. They can actually be practical. You don't have to choose between ideals divorced from practice, or practicality divorced from long range thinking.

The common view that moral principles are moral rules, telling you that you must obey them regardless of whether they hurt or help you, is actually a form of idealism. It promotes a view of moral principles that demands you to be a slave to them, instead of them being a tool for your successful living. Rejecting moral guides when you're in a context where they are no longer justified is not pragmatism. It's contextualism.

Another argument says that it may indeed be necessary to kill someone in order to survive in that kind of life-boat scenario, but that you shouldn't do it because you will feel guilty.

I think Bill asked the right question. Isn't your feeling of guilt a response to your acceptance of it being immoral? Emotions are not a tool of cognition. They reflect your value judgments. In order to say that the guilt is deserved, you have to first prove that the action is immoral. The point here is that the emotion itself doesn't prove that at all. Let me give an example.

Lisa is a pacifist. She strongly feels that all life is valuable, and she wouldn't hurt a fly if she could avoid it. Now Murderer Max breaks into her house, ready to kill her and her family. She can stop him with the household gun (her husband's, which she always wanted to get rid of). But she thinks about it. She says to herself, "I couldn't live with the guilt of having killed another human being". And so they all are horribly tortured and killed. The end.

Was she right because she felt strongly about it? Or would we say that she's misplacing a generalized good will towards decent people? We could argue that defensive force was not only justified, but was a morally required. But to do that, we couldn't simply argue that WE feel that way. We'd show that if you hold your life as the standard, than the correct course of action was to protect yourself and your family.

So the emotional argument isn't really an argument at all. In particular, the idea that feeling guilty about killing the other person isn't a good argument. Just as Lisa would argue that she'd feel guilty, and she really might, we'd have to argue that she shouldn't feel guilty and she needs to get over it.

This doesn't mean that no arguments regarding emotions are worth considering. For instance, if you do have a generalized good will towards other people, you would feel bad about the other person dying. This doesn't assume that you think your action was justified or not. Even if it is justified, you wouldn't walk away from the situation happy and care free. You'd probably even feel some survivor guilt, even if you thought it was justified.

The question is, are these things reasons to let yourself die? What if the situation were different, where your participation didn't decide anything. What if the terrorist simply killed the other person. You'd still feel a loss, and probably survivor guilt. Should you commit suicide? Are these emotions good reasons to stop living? Because that's the argument, isn't it? These emotions would impede your happiness, so you should just let yourself die.

A different argument comes from the view that rights are metaphysical "things" that people have. If I have a "right", you can't morally hurt me. It's like a moral repulser beam. It emits immoraltrons (undetectable subatomic particles) around you, and anyone who gets too close gets stripped of their morality.

This view of rights upholds other people's rights as some form of intrinsic value, that you must respect or you're "immoral". Instead of not hurting them because it violates your own interests, you're not supposed to hurt them because you'll be metaphysically labeled "immoral". Instead of grounding your moral choices in your own life and happiness, you accept a set of rules you must obey or you don't get the status of being moral.

A different view of rights bases it on your own life and happiness, your own self-interest. Instead of mystical metaphysical demands that you act a particular way, we have good reasons for recognizing rights and respecting them. These moral principles promote our lives, and allow harmonious living with others. These benefits are the justification for recognizing the moral principle of rights.

When the justification no longer applies, such as these insanely unlikely scenarios being argued about, continuing to act as if they did apply becomes sacrificial. But the metaphysical view of rights never goes away, because it was never morally justified in the first place. It was simply morally asserted and demanded. No context is necessary. It can't lose a justification that it never had. And because it's not justified by a benefit to your life and happiness, it's possible that under some circumstances it will conflict with one or both. Far from being a strong point in favor of metaphysical rights, this is a critical weakness, assuming we uphold life as our standard of value.

The next position offered is the view that certain virtues or characteristics are constitutive of life. It claims that it's not life that should be our standard of value, but a certain kind of life. The good life, if you will. And what does the good life consist of? Whatever things a philosopher decides are morally good.

I disagree with this view thoroughly, and may write something more about it in time. But let me highlight a few of the major problems with it.

First, it doesn't add anything useful. With life as the standard, we already have a compelling reason for being rational and productive. These aren't some extra characteristics that are wholly unconnected to life. Life is a process of self-generated, self-sustaining action. To sustain your life, you need both rationality and productivity. If life is your goal, the target is not subsistence survival where a slight breeze will ensure your death. It's a robust life, where your actions lead to more opportunities, more security, more fulfillment, etc. But the metric is always survival. The more robust life is a life that better ensures your ability to live. That is, to continue the process of self-generated, self-sustaining action.

The second problem is that it tries to smuggle moral judgments in through the meta-ethics. If I think rationality is good, I can make a case for it by referring to life as the standard of value and show how it is a critical virtue. But by declaring it constitutive of life, you're simply assuming it is good. No argument is necessary. No proof. No way to double check. By simply claiming that morality is aimed at "the good life", which includes rationality, you get to just assume it's good.

Of course, for rationality and productivity, the two most basic virtues that encompass all of life's choices, it may not seem controversial. But what happens when they tack on a few other characteristics. How about if I say that the good life involves having frequent and pleasurable sex. Or that it includes always telling the truth. Or it includes a spiritual oneness with god!!!

Do you commit suicide if you don't have frequent enough sex? If you can't live the good life, there's no point to living, right?

The good life ends up being a combination of all of your pre-existing value judgments. It's similar to how emotions work. They are a response to your value-judgments. If you try to formulate an ethics based on your emotions, you're really basing it on whatever random beliefs you had picked up over time. The same with the good life. If you throw in all the things that you already think are good into your definition of what good is, you're just perpetuating whatever baggage you already adopted.

The final reason against this idea of throwing random values into your standard of good is that even if they are good in most cases, you're removing them from the bounds of justification. I could argue that honesty serves our lives in most cases, but when the murderer comes knocking on the door, we should all be willing to lie. I can do that because the principles of honesty are understood and justified by their benefit to our lives. But if we decide to throw honesty into the standard of value itself, there is no more hierarchy of importance. I can't picked between honesty and life because both are tied together into a single standard. If I can't have both, I don't want either! If I can't live a life of honesty, then death is preferable?!?!

The key issue here is that the various values you throw in the mix are not separate values. If they were, as in your standard of value was life and your other standard of value was honesty, then you'd basically be promoting intrinsic values. What happens when there are conflicts? Who know. Rational comparison is out the door since there's no hierarchy and no way to judge which is more important.

By mixing these intrinsic values together, you're essentially disallowing a trade-off between them. Only actions that promote these values and don't sacrifice any of the other constitutive values can be considered moral. In short, it reduces your choices. Where you might normally make tough trade-offs, here you're not allowed. And in the honesty example I just gave, you're not allowed to lie to the murderer. The only life you can choose is the honest one.

Of course, there will be some who argue that it's not this bad. That you wouldn't add honesty to the good life as some blind rule that leads you to death. That would be an irrational form of honesty. We'd only include rational honesty into the good life. But what is rational honesty? Only the honesty that happens to serve your life. And so the fix to this problem is to undo it and once again have life as the standard and honesty as a tool in support of that life. The fix is to abandon the idea of constitutive values.

How does this play out in the murder an innocent to survive debate? The constitutive position attempts to remove the possibility of killing the person by saying that the moral standard itself includes not killing innocent people. It takes a value assumed by the promoters of the theory, declares that it is part of the standard itself, and so dismisses the possibility that the standard of value could be compatible with that action. By changing the standard to include the wished for result, it begs the question.


If we analyze these positions, there are some generalizations that can be made.

First, there is the position that if life is the standard, that in some unrealistic life-boat circumstance, killing an innocent person might be the most moral act. All other moral guides are only justified when they promote your life, and so aren't contextually valid.

One category of responses tries to change the standard of value so the choice is rejected. This includes the "good life" argument, the metaphysical rights, and even the "pragmatism" charge. The good life explicitly tries to change the standard. Metaphysical rights tries to add an intrinsic value, effectively interfering with the standard. And the "pragmatism" charge claims that the moral principles are worth pursuing even if they don't promote life, which effectively converts them into intrinsic values as well.

The other category of responses tries to work within the context of life as the standard. Instead of arguing with the method, it argues with the conclusion by bring up factors. The example of this was the argument that the guilt would make your life undesirable. I find this argument those most compelling because it actually attempts to show that it's not in your interest, instead of simply redefining what your interest is. But as I mentioned, I also disagree with this. One version claims that you'll feel guilty about the decision, which assumes you believe that the choice is immoral. And the second, better version claims you'll be sad and feel survivor guilt which is probably true, but doesn't seem to outweigh the whole dying alternative.

As far as the rapist example goes, it seems like it's constructed to promote emotions and not constructive debate. Even in the more vanilla cases of these life or death scenarios, there seems to be little agreement on the standards of evaluating the different arguments. Sometimes a more emotional example can produce better results, but I don't think this is one of those cases. The previous act of rape overwhelms the scenario. Instead of an argument about what are his choices and which choice is most compatible with life as the standard, other considerations have become more important.

Teresa asked why we should even be concerned with his interests. A few people asked whether he really values his life that much. But I believe those are irrelevant. Objectivist ethics shouldn't produce different suggestions for people based on whether they really value their lives. It should be a statement of fact. This is the option that best promotes his life. He may not choose it. He may sabotage it. He may not deserve it. But we should be able to take life as the standard and rationally determine which action best approaches that standard.

Post 204

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I have to say, this is one of the best posts I've seen you write! I couldn't have done it better myself, but more to the point, I couldn't have done it as well. You hit all the relevant considerations, which I lacked the patience and the objectivity to address, because I was too heavily focused on addressing the individual criticisms of those who disagreed with me.

Very nice, and I'd have to say that, in my opinion, what you've just expressed so thoroughly and eloquently is Rand's view of ethics to a T. I really think you've got the proper handle on this.

Thanks for a very fine post.

- Bill

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Post 205

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 5:46pmSanction this postReply
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Joe:

I have apparently done a poor job presenting my views in this discussion. Just a couple of points.

In the highly stylized situation where a captor orders you to kill another innocent person or be killed yourself, I actually do think it is immoral to kill that person. Regardless of what others think, my belief is that, despite this being an emergency situation, just as under normal circumstances, the innocent person and I have no conflict of interest. They are not a threat to me. It is the person ordering me to kill the other that is the threat. I would do everything within my though and power to defeat my captor, including gladly killing him, and I would hope that the other person would join me in that effort. I might die in the process, but it would be a noble death fighting against evil instead of acquiescing to it, which is what I would be doing if I were to kill the other person. Honestly, I don't see what is so difficult to understand here. This is no different than marching into battle to defend one's freedom. You put your life on the line in service of that which you value in an effort to defeat evil. Maybe the threat of death appears more immediate in the first example, but that is only a matter of degree. So there is no circularity here. I judge the morality of the actions by a standard, and the pride or guilt follows from adhering to or violating the moral principles. The guilt which I spoke of previously would not be a remorse at the death of the other. It would derive from my estimate of the magnitude of the moral failing for not standing up and fighting for my most important values at that moment-of-truth.

However, what I have learned from this discussion is that, should I someday be tossed into the gladiator ring with another person and a single sword, with the pronouncement that we must fight to the death with the victor being set free, and if I discovered that the other person was an Objectivist, I would immediately lunge for the sword and make every effort to hack them to death, because I have learned that they are truly a direct threat to my survival since they are not going to hesitate to kill me under these circumstances, secure in their justification that they are acting morally, in service of their own self-interest.

I'm not being fatuous here. This is where Objectivist morality leads if you operate from the view of self-interest that does not take the totality of one's values into account, and which operates from the belief that preservation of life trumps everything else. What a sad legacy for such a magnificent edifice.

I would sum this up by saying, life means much more than mere survival, even in emergency situations.

Regards,
--
Jeff

(Edited by C. Jeffery Small on 5/27, 6:07pm)


Post 206

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 6:09pmSanction this postReply
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Bill, I appreciate your comments. I'm glad we agree on this much.

Jeff, I agree that it would be great to have a third option in such a scenario, where we get to kill the bad guy and life is great. Or perhaps that we convince him to be a rational egoist and let us go. Or since we're adding new options, that the terrorists says "Just kidding. Here's 20 million dollars to make you feel better". But who said those were options? If you feel guilty for not picking one of these extra options, which weren't available choices, isn't your guilt misplaced?

I do want to offer one more scenario for you, given your response. Imagine a violent nation is attacking us and trying to kill us all. We'd like to stop them, but they are using innocent people as human shields. Now you say "despite this being an emergency situation, just as under normal circumstances, the innocent person and I have no conflict of interest. They are not a threat to me." And so you abstain from killing them? Many people believe that we should die before harming these innocent people. Do you think there is a fundamental difference between this example and the other?

See, I figured when you recognized that your life will end if they don't die, then your interests are conflicting. Sure, their choices didn't result in the conflict. And if you got out of the situation, the conflict would go away. But while you're stuck with one of you going to die, it seems pretty clear to me that there's an actual conflict.

I have some other disagreements with your post, but let me just end by asking you for a clarification, if you can.

You say: "This is where Objectivist morality leads if you operate from the view of self-interest that does not take the totality of one's values into account".

I was hoping you could point out the values that are not being taken into account. So far, I haven't seen any except maybe emotional peace of mind. What other values are you thinking about that are being overlooked? And if these are values because they promote your life, how is it that they become more important than your life?

Edit after seeing your edit. Who said life only means survival? I specifically argued against that notion. But that doesn't mean life means anything you feel it should mean.

(Edited by Joseph Rowlands on 5/27, 6:13pm)


Post 207

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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I would sum this up by saying, life means much more than mere survival, even in emergency situations.


Life, per se, simply is - the value given it is personal, and one's own should be the prime value, and the value of it meaning much more than mere survival is, properly, contextual, not a 'holy grail' as your statement implies....


Post 208

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Joe:

I am not one who would be paralyzed into inaction by the death of innocent people killed collaterally in an effort to defeat evil. And neither am I an advocate of wholesale slaughter of a population based upon the argument that they are all guilty for their failure to act against my enemy. I'm as much of a realist as you or Bill. Obviously I do not see your example and the one in my post as anywhere near parallel or equivalent. I'm surprised that you apparently do.

With regards to your other comments concerning my post, I have said what I think needs to be said on this subject. I believe that the answers to your questions are already in my writings and I don't care to continue to debate this subject or justify further my position. If you disagree with what I have said, I will simply accept that fact. However, reducing all of my points down to "emotional peace of mind" is startling, and for me, a bit insulting. I am truly sorry I have not been able to communicate more clearly and be more convincing.

Regards,
--
Jeff

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Post 209

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
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For the record, I have no problem with the examples of emergency exceptions that Rand gave. Break into the pharmacy and steal the medicine or my wife dies—fine. Break into a house and feed myself following a shipwreck—fine. Open fire on a shooter taking shots at me even though bodies are scattering through my line of fire and some of them will be hit by me—fine. And, as I wrote earlier, these examples are too easy. Simple, easy, no-brainers.

Jeff disagreed early on, and asked, along with others if I recall correctly, for exact definitions and parameters of what counts for an emergency. That’s a fair question.

Bill answered the request saying that any situation where an individual’s life is at threat counts. Joe, you say that my rapist example is “constructed to promote emotions and not constructive debate.” I disagree. I was simply testing the edges of what seemed to be Bill’s fully open-ended answer.

You say, “the previous act of rape overwhelms the scenario.” Yes, it does, doesn’t it? I take that to mean that you would not include it as an example of where a moral agent faces an emergency and can justly further abandon rights—and therefore Bill’s answer is too open-ended? It was designed to promote constructive debate as the reader was supposed to see that some conditions were in order—such as that the “emergency” may not be directly caused by an initiation of force by the actor himself. Seems pretty simple to me, and I am sorry Bill didn’t and doesn’t get it. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t serve constructive debate.

Do have any thoughts on this condition? Any other conditions or restrictions?



Post 210

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 7:59pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff, I guess we'll have to disagree as your last post didn't provide any actual clarification.  I will say that I do find the two scenarios to be very similar.  In both, a bad guy puts your life in danger and the only way to save it is to kill an innocent person.  I can't imagine what it is you see that makes a significant difference.  I also think it would be difficult to go through your posts looking for an argument against one case that couldn't be applied to other.  I can understand that you'd be frustrated with the conversation, and don't get value from participating any longer.  That's fine.  I probably will end my participation soon as well.  And I'm sorry you think I've trivialized your position, although I thought I responded to some of your other arguments in my first post, and none of them suggested we were overlooking values.

Jon, the way you asked your question to me might help me show where we are disagreeing.  You say " I take that to mean that you would not include it as an example of where a moral agent faces an emergency and can justly further abandon rights"[emphasis added].

Once the guy goes raping people, there's little he can do that's just.  And certainly killing the victim does not promote justice.  Dying might not either, but it might be a good start.  The problem is that I didn't think we were talking about which of his alternatives were the most just.  I thought the question was what is in the interest of the rapist.  Justice is certainly a value in our everyday lives.  It's something we rely on to live harmoniously with other human beings.  But when he raped her, justice stopped being in his interest.  He turned it against his life.  He took what should have been a powerful value and made it his enemy.

But again, I thought the question was which action was in his best interest, not which action was most just.  The rape made those two things incompatible.

The reason I think the example doesn't bring clarity is because he pitted justice against his own life.  His life is so screwed up after that, and he managed to create a disastrous conflict between himself and the rest of society, that there is no good alternative.  If he kills her, he can expect a short life on the run, desperate to avoid capture, and who knows what kind of horrors afterwards.  Is that better than death?  It certainly makes living a fulfilling life next to impossible.

One other clarification.  I don't really care what the definition of "emergency" is.  I don't really buy the idea that under some difficult to define circumstances the rules of morality suddenly change.  I think if values and virtues are contextual, only being of value when they promote your life, then there's no problem here.  It's the same standard, the same method of comparison, and the same requirement to judge the actions based on the likely consequences.  I can see why it might matter if the discussion is about whether some act is just or not, so I can see why you are interested.


Post 211

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
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Good response, Joe.

You wrote, “I can see why it might matter if the discussion is about whether some act is just or not, so I can see why you are interested.”

Right. Bill insisted he was justified in killing her. I find that very interesting indeed.

You wrote, “If he kills her, he can expect a short life on the run, desperate to avoid capture, and who knows what kind of horrors afterwards. Is that better than death? It certainly makes living a fulfilling life next to impossible.”

Helpful thoughts, thank you. In my own words, morality and his self-interest have sailed, so the question—what’s in his self-interest now? —is incoherent.

I disagree with you here: “I don't really care what the definition of "emergency" is. I don't really buy the idea that under some difficult to define circumstances the rules of morality suddenly change. I think if values and virtues are contextual, only being of value when they promote your life, then there's no problem here. It's the same standard, the same method of comparison, and the same requirement to judge the actions based on the likely consequences.”

Perhaps this is a question for another day, another thread. My thought at this point is that if Objectivism is to become a widespread philosophy for living on earth, then the masses will need something tighter than “only being of value when they promote your life,” because that quote invites willy-nillyism.

Rather, I think it is important to spell out that context of applicability very clearly and with carefully delimited contexts of exception to the principle of rights. I don’t think it will do to say: “Don’t worry about the qualifications required to meet an exception—it’s whenever they don’t promote your life.”



Post 212

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 9:29pmSanction this postReply
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Joe:

I will say one additional thing because your last post seems to highlight what I think is the crux of the issue. You said:

> I don't really buy the idea that under some difficult to define circumstances the rules of morality suddenly change.

I agree. This is a restatement of my original theses!

> I think if values and virtues are contextual, only being of value when they promote your life,
> then there's no problem here.


This cuts to the chase. In your statement, what is the "life" that must be promoted? What does your "life" mean to you and does that meaning change depending upon the context of the circumstances?

I do not deny that the context of these absurdly difficult examples are radically different from normal life. I do not deny that they are constructed to place us in danger and force us to make decisions that we do not typically face. But regardless of the nature of these external circumstances, I still remain a constant. I remain the same person, with the same intellect and same values and the same desire to continue living in or out of the emergency. Some terrorist or thief or rapist can make the existential circumstances for me untenable, but no one can force me to think or act. My spirit remain entirely within my control. So when I do think or act, I am still responsible, and therefore, I still need my moral principles to guide me - now more than ever.

If you want to know the difference in our views, you need to examine the "life" that you wish to promote. During this discussion I have said quite a bit about what qualities within myself that I wish to preserve in these situations and why the desire to preserve those attributes cause me to act in a particular way under these adverse circumstances. Can it really be that all you see in what I say is some sort of rank emotionalism rather than understand that it is a deep and fundamental self-awareness of who I am? When you talk about "life" here, do you mean anything beyond simple survival?

And by the way, back in post #206 you accuse me of introducing arbitrary new options to the scenario. All of your fantasy counter example you offer require a change in behavior by the other party. Of course that is not going to happen. However, what I was proposing was a self-initiated action that I could take in service of my values - something that is realistic. How is it possible that you attempt to equate my example with those you offer, as though they somehow demolish my point?

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 213

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, I'm not sure what "justified" is supposed to mean in that context.  Does it mean that he would be forgiven by the rest of society?  Or does it mean that the choice to kill her is supported by the goal of living?

I think I understand where you're coming from on the last part of your post, but I disagree wholeheartedly.  I'm currently working on a long essay on the subject, so I don't feel the need to go into it here.

Jeff, I agree that it was your original thesis.  That's a part of the debate I sided more closely with you than with Bill, and I think it relates to Jon's disagreement with me.  Again, I'll leave it for another day.

As for post 206, I still maintain you added a new option.  Sure the other options I added were different in some sense.  But I don't find it very important.  Given the narrow choices originally introduced in the scenario, you wouldn't have the option you want (to kill the bad guy, or at least have some shot of doing it).  And that invalidates your argument that you should feel guilty for being a coward and not trying.

As for your question of life, I have to repeat that I have never said that life is simply survival.  If you feel insulted by your impression that your views are being trivialized, don't repeat the offense.

I think life is far more than simply staying alive.  At its best, it includes excitement, romance, achievement, being blown away by new ideas and new insights, working hard at something you really want and knowing you can get there, etc., etc.  These are just a few of the things we aspire towards.  But the reason we can say these are valuable is because they further our lives.  They open up new possibilities.  They give us the spiritual fuel to move on to bigger and better things.  They expand our horizons.

But that's life at its best.  Sometimes, you get in terrible situations where you don't get the luxury of choosing options that will fulfill you.  And if your life depends on it, the fact that you have to do something you feel is horrible does not mean you have to choose death.  The worse the situation, the worse the options ahead of you.  And simply escaping the situation is not the goal.  It is a means of getting back to the life of adventure and happiness.  You do what you need to, and you try to get over it.  And you try not to feel guilt for the consequences that other people forced on you.  This would be the same whether they had you in a prison cell or if an enemy army attacked with human shields. 

I'm sorry to say that your additional comments have done nothing to clarify the issue for me.  I only get the sense that you strongly feel that it would be wrong to do, and that you couldn't live with yourself if you did.  You wouldn't want to be that kind of person, so you'd prefer to die in order to preserve what you like about yourself.  On an emotional level, I can understand.  It would be a terrible choice to have to make.  But if I knew someone who was forced to make that choice, who tortured themselves with guilt, I would tell them that it wasn't their fault.  I'd assign the blame where it belongs, and tell them to try to get on with their lives.  If I'm not willing to condemn another person for acting in such a nightmare scenario, why should I condemn myself if I were in it.

Out of curiosity, would you condemn someone who made that choice?


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Post 214

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:12pmSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

For what it’s worth, I see the difference you see. In the case of the aggressor nation, one will be taking forceful action against the evil aggressor (and some innocents will have to go in the process,) while in the gladiator ring nothing is being done about the evil aggressor, only the innocents will be killed. You would rather go down doing whatever possible to hurt the aggressor.

There is always some potential for misunderstanding in these hypotheticals because a reader will always see some other way, when the author of the hypothetical meant to present a scenario when there is no other way.

You write, “However, what I have learned from this discussion is that, should I someday be tossed into the gladiator ring with another person and a single sword, with the pronouncement that we must fight to the death with the victor being set free, and if I discovered that the other person was an Objectivist, I would immediately lunge for the sword and make every effort to hack them to death, because I have learned that they are truly a direct threat to my survival since they are not going to hesitate to kill me under these circumstances, secure in their justification that they are acting morally, in service of their own self-interest.”

NOW YOU’VE GOT IT!

THAT is the scenario Joe asks you to contemplate. Not ‘maybe we could team up and hurt some of them before we both down,’ but rather, the other gladiator is coming at you intent to kill. And your response agrees with Joe.

Remember, too, that Rand said any choice is moral in these types of situations. Who knows what any of us would do, but I suspect I would get a kick out of you coming up to me (if we were the two gladiators) and suggesting that instead of fighting, we could devise this or that deception and kill a couple of them. I can readily imagine going along with that—it would contribute to my happiness, short-lived as it might be (and how long do any of us live anyway?) Bill argues as though crude self-preservation is THE ONLY rational, moral choice, but going down with the pleasure of whacking a few of those shits first would be perfectly rational and moral, according to Rand. The position you have taken in every one of the various hypotheticals is moral.



Post 215

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:15pmSanction this postReply
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Jon wrote, "Bill insisted he was justified in killing her. I find that very interesting indeed." And Joe replied, "Jon, I'm not sure what 'justified' is supposed to mean in that context. Does it mean that he would be forgiven by the rest of society? Or does it mean that the choice to kill her is supported by the goal of living?"

Of course, it doesn't mean that he would (or should) be forgiven by the rest of society. I thought I made that clear in Post 193, in which I said that the police should arrest him and put him behind bars. To say that he is "justified" in killing her means that he is morally justified in doing so. It means, in other words, that his choice to kill her under these exigent circumstances is a morally defensible one that is "justified" by his own self-interest and self-preservation. Yes, he may find himself having to run from the police, etc., but from his perspective, it's better than being dead. For him, life on the run is the lesser of the two evils.

And Jon, you didn't answer the question that I posed to you in Post 201. In the previous post, you wrote,
You don’t see how [the rapist's] choices created his pickle? You don’t see how the entire sequence is his doing, made by his actions and choices? Of course you do. Very low point for you, Bill.
Despite the insult, Jon, I was generous enough to give you the following answer, In Post 201, I replied: "Very well, let's say that a sailor embarks on a risky journey because he's an adventurous kind of guy and gets shipwrecked near a desert island, swims to shore, and realizes that he's in a real pickle -- a pickle created by his own choice to embark on the risky journey. And suppose he finds a house with some food in it. Would Rand then say that he should starve to death rather than steal the food, because after all, it was his own choice that created the pickle?"

Yes or no?

- Bill

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Post 216

Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:27pmSanction this postReply
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No.

Our subject was “unchosen” in Rand’s passage where she says that an emergency exception to rights is a circumstance not of one’s choosing.

Do you see any difference between the choice to engage in risky sailing that leads to the need to steal and the choice to rape that leads to the need to murder?

Yes or no?



(Edited by Jon Letendre on 5/27, 11:37pm)



(Edited by Jon Letendre on 5/27, 11:57pm)


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Post 217

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 12:13amSanction this postReply
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Joe writes:

> As for your question of life, I have to repeat that I have never said that life is simply survival.
> If you feel insulted by your impression that your views are being trivialized, don't repeat the offense.

Joe:

Sorry that I wasn't clearer. I didn't mean to imply at all that I though you equated "life" with survival in general. I would never think that of you. I only meant that comment, which was really a question, in the context of these absurd emergency examples. I was wondering whether you believed that "life" could be reduced all the way down to mere survival at any point during the course or duration of these situations? I was saying that I could not conceive of a situation where that would be the case for me.

> I only get the sense that you strongly feel that it would be wrong to do, and that you couldn't
> live with yourself if you did.

I don't "feel" that these choices would be wrong, I "know" that they would be - at least for me. And the reason is that I actually have a value, "life", that is a higher value than "survival", such that choosing "survival" over "life" would be a sacrifice. I realize that to you and Bill this probably seems like a nonsensical inversion of an objective hierarchy of values, but the distinction between these two concepts has been the thrust of my later posts and is a distinction that I have been unsuccessful in communicating to you. An inexact metaphor might be the difference between quantity and quality. If forced to choose, I would select a shorter high-quality life over a longer low-quality one.

> You wouldn't want to be that kind of person, so you'd prefer to die in order to preserve what you
> like about yourself. On an emotional level, I can understand.

OK, but what about on a rational intellectual level? Are you saying that this choice is objectively irrational, wrong or immoral?

> It would be a terrible choice to have to make. But if I knew someone who was forced to make
> that choice, who tortured themselves with guilt, I would tell them that it wasn't their fault.
> I'd assign the blame where it belongs, and tell them to try to get on with their lives.

OK again, but are you willing to accord my choice at least the same consideration? I have certainly got the impression from the letter and tone of this discussion that I am being judged as being wrong in my decision and that it indicates a serious flaw in my understanding and application of Objectivist ethics.

> If I'm not willing to condemn another person for acting in such a nightmare scenario, why should I
> condemn myself if I were in it. Out of curiosity, would you condemn someone who made that choice?

No, I would not condemn them. I agree that the choices in some of these examples is untenable and recognize that there are many reasons why a person might choose to act differently then I would. Did you think that this was in question or that it was the thrust of all of my arguments? I think a person in such a situation should be held neither legally culpable or be morally reproached.

I have had three significant points in this discussion.

1: Emergency situations do not provide a context that requires a different treatment of morality from the requirements of normal life.

2: It is good to consider emergency situations in relation to your ethical beliefs as it tests the boundaries and depth of your understanding and prepares you to better deal with with difficult situations when they arise.

3: For some of us, moral condemnation is not the focus of our lives, the heroic is that to which we aspire. In the case of life-boat or emergency situations, far from morality being inapplicable, there are opportunities to make the heroic choice. If people have a problem with what I have been saying, I'm pretty sure that it is this point that is the source of most of the problems.

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 218

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 12:26amSanction this postReply
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Jon:

Thank you for your post #214. Not so much because you agree with me, but because you showed me that you understood what I was saying. I really appreciate that!

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 219

Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 1:14amSanction this postReply
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Bill, I was actually wondering what Jon thought you meant by 'justified'.  I didn't feel comfortable making any statement on the matter if it could be so easily misinterpreted.  I suspected you meant what you just said.

Jeff, I guess I did think that you would have condemned someone in that situation.  Specifically, the part where you repeatedly condemned what Objectivism has sunk to if it would justify killing innocent people in order to live.  I'm glad you've clarified, although I have a hard time reconciling it with your other statements.

As for whether I am willing to accord your choice with the same consideration, I would say yes.  If you chose to die rather than kill the other person, I wouldn't condemn you.  I don't know if it's exactly what you mean, but I can imagine being in that situation and thinking "I may not survive this, but this is my life and I would rather live it my way than be forced to live it by someone else's demands.  I won't be a slave.  I won't beg for my life to this animal who wants to see me kill an innocent person.  Perhaps I only get to make one more choice in this life, but I'll make it my choice."

I think this might be the sense where you want "life" over "survival".  I would agree.  If the alternative was one last self-generated action versus barely surviving and as a slave, I think the choice is clear.  But is that the choice?  I thought if you chose to kill the innocent, the assumption is that you'd be able to go back to your full life.  So really, you're choosing between a horrible act that will give you your life back, and a defiant gesture that will lead to certain death.

Is that a rational choice?  Defiance might be satisfying, but you still end up dead.  Is this a heroic choice?  Or is it dying a meaningless death by the hands of someone who doesn't care about your gesture?  I think the concept of heroism is too deeply tied to altruism and the idea of a noble sacrifice.  I don't think we should rush to our deaths to prove how heroic we are.  Sometimes living is tougher and less glorious.  And dying is never quite as wonderful as TV makes it out to be.  The rewards in life far outweigh the alleged glory of dying heroically.

I'm not willing to condemn a person for choosing not to kill someone and dying instead.  Partly that's because there's no point in condemning a victim.  Partly it's because in that kind of situation, even if you read an Objectivist web site telling you that you should kill them, it wouldn't be a simple choice.  Partly it's because at the end of the day, I can't imagine what they had to go through.

On the other hand, if I heard their reasons for doing it, I might be tempted to say "Well, that was dumb".

Gotta get back to my own life now.  I hope some people found my contributions helpful.  I did, and that's all that really matters.  Good luck whoever continues this discussion.  Try to stay civil and see where the other people are coming from.  And remember, the scenario is so incredibly wrong.  The only point in discussing it is to look closely at how we make decisions given a moral standard.

Good night, folks.


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