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Post 120

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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“Question: which, if any, of Fred's actions were not justified?”

With no one left to recompense, the pharmacist dead and all, I would say that leaving the scene without first taking all the percocet was unjustified, i.e., not in his best interest.



Post 121

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt asked, "Bill - are you arguing that you would kill someone who did nothing to you in order to save your own life and end theirs?"

It would be very difficult, and I might not have the courage to do it, but if the person were not a close friend or significant other, and I valued my life, then I would certainly be justified in doing it.

I am reminded of a case in which a woman who was taken hostage on a peace-keeping mission in an African country was forced to kill her cell mate with a machete in order to save her own life. She was told they would kill her if she didn't kill her cell mate. What a horrific choice! Did she do it? Yes, and this was a passionately non-violent woman. Should she have felt guilty for doing so? She obviously felt great revulsion and horror over it, but I don't think she deserved to feel guilty. She did nothing immoral, for she had no other choice, if she wanted to stay alive.

Glen, I would say that common sense makes your example implausible. Let's start with the owner's catching the husband in the act. At that point, the husband has nothing to gain by continuing the robbery. He has to know that if he kills the owner or seriously harms him, he faces serious jail time and all that that implies, including separation from his wife, an inability to help her in the future and the likely dissolution of his marriage.

Jeff, these are all good questions. I would say that a very concerted effort should be made to find a non-coercive solution to your own (or your wife's) survival, before resorting to force. The point is that if you have made such an effort without success, then there is nothing per se immoral about resorting to force. Remember, morality is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Moral principles are guidelines for practical living, not Kantian imperatives to be followed for their own sake, irrespective of the consequences.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 5/21, 1:07pm)


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Post 122

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
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In your example though she was forced to do so by others as opposed to choosing to do so herself - still considering if that makes a difference, as it can be interpreted as "circumstance" - and also considering if she should have - how does she know they would kill her indeed, I mean they obviously could just kill one or the other themselves - I would rather agree with my cell mate neither of us would be forced to do their bidding. 

I don't think I agree with you.  I think it is always a choice, and you should not choose to kill someone and in effect sacrifice their life for yours.


Post 123

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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In your example though she was forced to do so by others as opposed to choosing to do so herself - still considering if that makes a difference, as it can be interpreted as "circumstance" . . .
It doesn't make any difference, because the standard that determines what action is appropriate here is the moral agent's own survival.
. . . - and also considering if she should have - how does she know they would kill her indeed, I mean they obviously could just kill one or the other themselves - I would rather agree with my cell mate neither of us would be forced to do their bidding.
Well, they were torturing her, so she had a pretty good idea of what they were capable of doing. I wouldn't sit there and second guess them under those circumstances.
I don't think I agree with you. I think it is always a choice, and you should not choose to kill someone and in effect sacrifice their life for yours.
Of course, it's a choice. I said that she had no other choice, if she wanted to stay alive. And why shouldn't you choose to sacrifice someone else if your life depends on it? You're just asserting that you shouldn't, as if it were a self-evident truth. If you're an egoist -- if your own happiness is your highest moral purpose -- then you should do whatever is necessary to achieve it.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 5/21, 5:48pm)


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Post 124

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 9:41pmSanction this postReply
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Bill says:

> Remember, morality is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Moral principles are guidelines for their
> practical living, not Kantian imperatives to be followed for own sake, irrespective of the consequences.

Bill, you repeat this point over and over as though it offered an explanation for something. I do not think that anyone is disagreeing with you regarding this. But recognition of the fact that morality is a practical guideline for living and not an authoritative commandment from God does not tell us how to formulate an appropriate moral code and how to then practice it successfully in a wide range of circumstances. All of these examples being offered by various people in this discussion are focused on those "hows".

Does our moral system provide us with some guidance on how far we should go in service of a goal or value when it may have an impact on one or more people besides ourself? Are there any limitations on the actions we are justified in taking when facing an emergency? You appear to be clearly stating that, in principle, when one's life is at stake and you are acting in service of self-preservation, there are no moral limits on what one may do, regardless of the consequences to others. You then seem to be clearly extending this same pass on moral limitations to other "top values" you may possess, such as the preservation of the life of a loved one. So I believe that what people are trying to determine through these various hypothetical scenarios is the following:

How does one morally determine which personal values are important enough to provide a moral justification for causing harm to others and which ones are not? Is this a subjective or an objective issue? For example, you have said that the preservation of one's life and the life of a loved one justify killing another person in an emergency situation. Would that extend to saving the life of a beloved pet? Why or why not? How is the average Objectivist supposed to arrive at the answer to this and all the other examples being proposed? Do you even think that answering questions like this is the proper realm of a moral code?

I stated this in an earlier post in this thread, but it seems to need repeating and elaboration. There is much confusing arising here because the issue of individual rights is being co-mingled with the separate issue of the appropriate nature of an ethical code. Both issues are in play in the many examples being discussed, but these are really two separate things and they need to be examined individually in order to get a clearer view of each.

Individual rights is a particular species of moral principle that recognizes the individualistic, rational, conceptual nature of humans and sees that a respect for these attributes is a practical requirement if we are to survive and thrive amongst one another. As Bill says, as with all moral principles, the recognition of other's rights is not an imperative which we must follow. It is simply a recognition of a general principle that derives from an analysis of the facts of reality and we elect to implement it as part of our conduct because it proves to be beneficial to our lives. We break down the broad category of "human rights" into sub-categories such as the "right to life", the "right to liberty" the "right to property", the "right to privacy", etc. as a matter of practical convenience so that these principles can be better understood and thereby more easily put into practice. Rights are a "social" principle and only have meaning in the context of our dealings with other human beings. And our social interactions are only a subset of the totality of the actions in our lives. Please note one important thing which I will pull out for emphasis:
    The moral principle of rights is not something that we observe as an attribute that exists in other people (as the proponents of natural rights would have it), nor is it some existential aspect of nature that we uncover like the law of gravity. It is simply an idea that we formulate in our heads. It is a very high level concept that embodies a recognition of the nature of man and integrates it with an understanding of the consequences of our actions in relation to other men.
More on this later.

A moral or ethical code is a much broader intellectual system which subsumes the concept of "rights" as only one of its parts. The purpose of a comprehensive moral code is to provide us with guidance in all of the decisions and actions we make in life. This is an important point worth repeating:
    A comprehensive moral code should provide guidance for all choices and actions we make throughout the course of our life.
Of course, there may well be a difference between how our ethical system should function and how well it actually does depending upon the amount of thought any given individual has performed in integrating it into comprehensive system and validating the components of that system against reality. To act, we need goals, and to establish a specific set of goals we develop a hierarchy of values that become the standard for their development while our moral code guides us in making appropriate decisions and taking effective actions in service of achieving those goals. It's all a marvel when you understand it!

I contend that there is nothing particularly special about emergency situations over those that we encounter daily. Each day we are faced with issues of survival. We make decisions to work productively so that we may then acquire food, shelter, clothing, and so on to meet our basic needs. Fortunately, most of us live in circumstances which allow us to go beyond providing for simple needs and engage in other pursuits that give greater meaning and happiness to our lives. But, regardless of the nature of the pursuit, in every case we need to set a goal and then choose a suitable course of action. Therefore, we constantly need to avail ourselves of our moral code.

During the course of developing her ethical system, it was Rand's great observation that, in general, it was possible for men to live together in a social context, each pursuing their own independent, self-interested ends without fundamental conflict so long as each was willing to respect the rights of the others. Of course, in reality, conflicts exist all the time between various people under all sorts of benign circumstances. In many cases the struggle results because one person or group of people do not respect even the most fundamental rights of others. In other cases problems arise due to people attempting to live by moral codes that contain innate contradictions that must inevitably lead to strife. And of course, there will be potential problems when a circumstance arises where one's moral code is insufficiently developed and unable to provide guidance, forcing one to make decisions without benefit of a moral compass. Any of the conditions I have just described can and do arise for many people during the course of normal life, and they also arise for even more people during an emergency.

Occasionally, we all find ourself in extraordinary circumstances, faced with the need to make extraordinary difficult decisions. What we call "emergency" or "life-boat" situations are simply extreme versions of many other slightly less tough situations that we encounter during our journey through life. If we were judging culpability, then it might be important to determine how someone got into the current state, but for the purpose of this discussion it really isn't germane. Because, regardless of how we got there, what makes these decision so difficult is that we find that we are now forced by the situation to make a tough choice between two or more important values which do not compete with one another in our typical day-to-day life.

For example, I generally conduct myself in such a way that I can feed myself (self-sufficiency and personal survival being two of my values) without having to rob from another, thereby respecting their property rights (another value of mine). Now, after a plane crash in the ocean, and having washed up on the island with the single unoccupied cabin, and having exhausted all other avenues I can think of, I am left with one choice: starve to death if I do not eat soon which will require that I break into the cabin and steal the food which I can see through the window. I decide to break in, because I perform a moral calculation that this is the better of the two choices. As it turns out, this is actually a relatively easy decision for me because I immediately see that, although I am greatly troubled by violating the stranger's property rights, I can make restitution to the owner by repairing any damage and replacing any supplies that I use, thereby, very probably minimizing the impact I will have to that of an inconvenience for them, and when weighing their inconvenience against my life, the decision is clear and easy.

Now, notice a couple of things that happen when thinking through this scenario. First, while there was a moral quandary to resolve, it was something completely personal to me. This wasn't a moral struggle between me and the property owner. The property owner isn't in the picture and is completely unaware of what is happening. The moral conflict is mine alone and takes place between competing values that I hold which have now been placed in conflict with one another. And as per my original argument that kicked off this entire thread, it is important to have an ethical code that has been sufficiently developed through exposure to sample emergency situations like these so that it is prepared to guide me appropriately should I ever find myself in a similar real-world circumstance.

Secondly, it is important to understand that it makes no sense to talk about moral principles or rights "not applying" in a circumstance like this. The simple fact is that these rights, or any of the other moral principles, are just concepts in my head. I can honor them or ignore them any time I choose. How I am going to actually respond in any given situation will ultimately depend upon the totality of my character. How strongly do I value my integrity, my honor, my honesty, my sense of justice? What is my strength of will? How do I respond to shock or the unexpected? How do I control my fear? Am I afraid of death? And so on. Bill, if anyone appears to be coming close to accepting the concept of "categorical imperative" it would seem to be you when you speak as though we are somehow bound to or "obligated" by our moral principles in some odd fashion such that when they might actually come into conflict with one another, it becomes necessary for you to argue that they somehow mysteriously wink out of applicability as the explanation for why we are then able to act against them. Honestly, I cannot even begin to grasp what this idea of "non-applicability" of moral precepts might relate to in reality, but I'm still listening if you can explain it in a new way. In the meantime, I think it is just a simple matter of choice! Be true to yourself or don't. However, in choosing, you reveal to yourself and to other your true nature.

Before closing, let's look at the more serious example where people are locked in a situation where one's survival depends upon the other's death. Actually, the TV show 24 dealt with this issue a few seasons back. A terrorist calls CTU and informed them that he would immediately release a toxin into populated LA (or explode a bomb, I can't remember the details) unless Jack took a fellow agent to a remote site and executed him with a bullet through the head. What are the proper moral choices? Do you negotiate with terrorists who probably cannot be trusted to keep their word anyway? As the director of CTU, knowing that there is not enough time to locate the terrorist, do you authorize or prohibit the killing? Do you order your subordinate to allow himself to be killed or do you leave the decision up to him? Do you agree to pull the trigger yourself and execute your colleague in order to save thousands of innocent lives? As the intended victim, do you fight violently against your associates for your own survival or do you peacefully acquiesce and allow yourself to be killed in the name of a devotion to some higher principle that is at stake? There's no correct answer to any of these questions. Each decision will depend upon the character of the individual facing it, which will further depend upon their values and the level of sophistication of their ethical code. We can all agree that the ultimate responsibility for whatever the outcome rests upon the terrorist and we can all probably agree that we can absolve any of the other players from moral culpability regardless of which choice they ultimately make. But, when everything is said and done, we will certainly know an awful lot about the character of each person.

I once thought that if I were forced to place my life in the hands of another individual, I would be best served by picking a fellow Objectivist who would have a strong understanding of my rights, a deep appreciation for the value of my life and a highly developed moral compass. After an immersion in one discussion after another like this, I'm pretty sure that I would have a higher chance of survival picking a random citizen off the street. :-(

Regards,
--
Jeff

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Post 125

Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
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Bill writes:
--------------------------------------------------------
Of course, it's a choice. I said that she had no other choice, if she wanted to stay alive. And why shouldn't you choose to sacrifice someone else if your life depends on it? You're just asserting that you shouldn't, as if it were a self-evident truth. If you're an egoist -- if your own happiness is your highest moral purpose -- then you should do whatever is necessary to achieve it.
--------------------------------------------------------
[Emphasis added]

Bill:

I have to say that I consider this a monstrous perversion of Objectivist ethics or any other ethical system for that matter. And I know with my own moral certainty that Rand would condemn this statement of your is the loudest possible way. This is simple hedonism. You operate from the position that one's survival is a moral absolute, while ignoring every other positive aspect of human character. Murder away and live with the consequences. Apparently you can. Unbelievable!

Regards,
--
Jeff

Post 126

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 12:28amSanction this postReply
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Jeff,

So I take it that you not only disagree with my statement that a person's own happiness is his highest moral purpose, but that you also believe that Rand would condemn this statement as simple hedonism? Is that correct?

- Bill

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Post 127

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 1:04amSanction this postReply
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Bill writes:

> So I take it that you not only disagree with my statement that a person's own happiness is his highest moral
> purpose, but that you also believe that Rand would condemn this statement as simple hedonism? Is that correct?

No. I agree with the statement that a person's own happiness is their highest moral purpose, and since that is pure Rand, of course she wouldn't condemn it. I just think that you have demonstrated, repeatedly now, that you have no idea what that phrase means in practice, nor do you understand Rand's context when she made this proclamation.

And given that this is your response to my two previous posts, all I can surmise is that you must not only think that choosing to "sacrifice someone else if your life depends on it", is not only morally justified, it apparently is a source of happiness for you, otherwise, what was your purpose in introducing that sentiment?

Christ, Gail Wynand puts a bullet through his head because he cannot live with his moral cowardice, while you speak of happiness in the context of taking another person's life. You really don't see anything wrong here?

Jeff

Post 128

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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Jeff, regarding Bill's thoughts (which are meant as an example, I think and hope):

 This is simple hedonism.

What Bill is describing is pragmatism, not hedonism. The end justifies the means = pragmatism.


Post 129

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 5:13amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

You say that your philosophy of 'value-determinism' doesn't affect your stance/positioning in this thread. I disagree. I once brought charges against you of neglecting the intellectual part (of the psychological experience of moral agents). I think you're doing that here.

Ed

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Post 130

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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Jeff,
Your post #127 was a complete misrepresentation of Bill's view, and you know it.
Glenn


Post 131

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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Glen Fletcher writes:

> Your post #127 was a complete misrepresentation of Bill's view, and you know it.

Glen:

I'm not trying to misrepresent Bill's views at all. I'm playing it totally straight here and I'm very serious about this topic as all of my posts, especially #124, indicate. If you or Bill believe that I am missing the mark and making an issue out of nothing, you are free to explain yourselves.

But just in case you or anyone else is confused, let me be clear that I'm not accusing Bill of being and evil SOB or anything approaching that. I have always had a great deal of respect for Bill as a clear-headed and insightful thinker and I believe that it is much more likely that in an attempt to make a theoretical point he has adopted a very intellectually-based position and temporarily lost sight of of the humanity involved in this issue and in the examples being discussed. If this was just Bill's personal opinion on the matter I would not be so concerned. But this entire discussion is flying under the banner of a proper interpretation and implementation of Objectivist ethics and I am adamant in my belief that Rand would never sanction such a cavalier approach to the treatment of human life, nor, despite her belief in ethical egoism and her recognition that life was one's top value because all other values depended upon it, would she advocate an ethical stance where personal survival was an individual's number one duty to themselves, dropping the context of all of their other values. We can never know with certainty Rand's actual position on this issue since she did not write directly to the point, but if Rand was anything, she was a hero worshiper, and I cannot imagine her ever lifting a pen to write about a hero who finds themselves in an untenable situation where they elect to kill another innocent human being and then justify it as the morally proper thing to do.

And to further make my point, look here in another thread where a new ROR member raises a question about ethical conflicts of interests and is quickly treated to the concept that sacrificing another person to one's own interests is the rational thing to do! I think this is another example of an unconscionable statement by Bill who presents this argument to someone obviously so unfamiliar with Objectivism that they would certainly not have the context of knowledge to be able to even begin to properly understand the point he is attempting to make.

Maybe we need a succinct bromide to help remind us of how we should comport ourselves in these intellectual discussions, so I offer the following, paraphrased from Stan Lee:
    With great knowledge comes great responsibility.


And as they used to say on Hill Street Blues,

Be careful out there!
--
Jeff

Post 132

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 11:43amSanction this postReply
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Jef said:
I cannot imagine her [Rand] ever lifting a pen to write about a hero who finds themselves in an untenable situation where they elect to kill another innocent human being and then justify it as the morally proper thing to do.

Atlas Shrugged, Part 3, Chapter X:

 

"... Maybe I'm acting on my own—and you'll be punished for obeying me. Maybe I have—and you'll be thrown in jail for disobeying. Maybe Dr. Ferris and Mr. Thompson agree about this. Maybe they don't—and you have to defy one or the other. These are the things you have to decide. There is no one to ask, no one to call, no one to tell you. You will have to decide them yourself."

"But I can't decide! Why me?"

"Because it's your body that's barring my way."

"But I can't decide! I'm not supposed to decide!"

"I'll count to three," she said. "Then I'll shoot."

"Wait! Wait! I haven't said yes or no!" he cried, cringing tighter against the door, as if immobility of mind and body were his best protection.

"One—" she counted; she could see his eyes staring at her in terror—"Two—" she could see that the gun held less terror for him than the alternative she offered—"Three."

Calmly and impersonally, she, who would have hesitated to fire at an animal, pulled the trigger and fired straight at the heart of a man who had wanted to exist without the responsibility of consciousness.

 
Dagny's greatest value, Galt, was in danger and the guard was barring her way.  When he wouldn't move, she killed him.

As to your misrepresentation of Bill's views, please explain how you can logically get from his statement

So I take it that you not only disagree with my statement that a person's own happiness is his highest moral purpose, but that you also believe that Rand would condemn this statement as simple hedonism?
to your statement
... all I can surmise is that you must not only think that choosing to "sacrifice someone else if your life depends on it", is not only morally justified, it apparently is a source of happiness for you...
That is a leap worthy of Evil Kenival.


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Post 133

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
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Glen:

I'll grant that you make a point here, and I can understand how this passage from Atlas Shrugged can be a source of confusion in this discussion. But please reread what I said a bit more closely:
    I cannot imagine her ever lifting a pen to write about a hero who finds themselves in an untenable situation where they elect to kill another innocent human being and then justify it as the morally proper thing to do. [emphasis added]

In this example from Rand, the young guard is anything but innocent. Not only is he aiding in the torture of Galt, but more important to Rand's theses, he is guilty of the greatest moral crime of all - abdicating all responsibility to think and judge, thus reducing himself, by his own inactions, to a sub-human state. So I have no moral problem with this example. It makes its point in a forceful way and acts as a cautionary example for all of us as to how critical is our need to think in order to survive. Also note that Dagny does not act passionately or ruthlessly in this scene. She offers the guard every opportunity to flee and save himself. She acts with an unemotional compassion, but compassion just the same.

Now contrast this to the example offered by Bill of two prisoners held captive, where one person is ordered to slaughter the other who is totally innocent of any crime or wrong-doing and is simply a victim of these dreadful circumstances. In this discussion it is recommended that it is in the best interest of the one to pick up the sword and slay the other in the name of self-preservation, one's highest value. Here I have no doubt that Rand would not allow any of her fictional heroes to follow through with such an action. Do you think she would? What would be your estimation of Galt if he were shown to be placed in this situation and followed through with the act? I can answer for myself and say that I would be appalled! Galt would now be reduced to the level of his captors. He should be legally absolved of any responsibility for the murder, but I am positive that Rand would not declare him absolved of moral responsibility. Why? Because our moral code is the reason and justification for our actions, and even though one is in the untenable position of either killing another innocent person or face being tortured and possibly killed yourself, no one can force you to pick up that sword and commit murder. You still have a choice - and if you choose that path, you have chosen the moral actions of a coward over those of a hero. We do not have to guess about Rand's response to this because she made it all explicit in the torture scene with Galt. Not only could he end his torture at any moment with the simplest betrayal of his values*, something he was unwilling to do, she goes much farther by allowing him to show utter contempt for his captors and their values, by demonstrating that only he has the mind necessary to repair the torture machine - even though this will, in all probability, lead to his further torture and possibly his death!

All of this is supposed to inspire us to be our best and to act courageously when our personal moment-of-truth comes. In the final analysis, this is what the Objectivist ethics is all about! Rand tells us that our moral code can transform us into heroes - if we are willing to live up to the challenge. And this is why I cringe when I see this monumental edifice being reduced to the gutter in these discussions.

I truly hope that something I am saying here will have some meaning to someone.

Regards,
--
Jeff

* any of which would presumably have been a lesser value than his life, his top value, and so, isn't Galt acting irrationally by sacrificing his top value for lesser ones?

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Post 134

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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In Post 133, Jeff wrote,

"Now contrast this to the example offered by Bill of two prisoners held captive, where one person is ordered to slaughter the other who is totally innocent of any crime or wrong-doing and is simply a victim of these dreadful circumstances. In this discussion it is recommended that it is in the best interest of the one to pick up the sword and slay the other in the name of self-preservation, one's highest value. Here I have no doubt that Rand would not allow any of her fictional heroes to follow through with such an action."

Well, let's ask Rand herself, since she is here with me and interviewer Norman Fox:
Norman Fox:
Miss Rand, a particular example has been brought to my attention, involving suicide, or apparent suicide, and it goes as follows. If Man B is placed in a situation where he is under a threat of death by Man A, and the threat is contingent on Man B killing Man C, what is the resolution of this situation philosophically? What are the moral explanations of the possible actions of Man B?

Ayn Rand:
In a case of that kind, you cannot morally judge the action of Man B. Since he is under the threat of death, whatever he decides to do is right, because this is not the kind of moral situation in which men could exist. This is an emergency situation. Man B, in this case, is placed in a position where he cannot continue to exist. Therefore, what he does is up to him. If he refuses to obey, and dies, that is his moral privilege. If he prefers to obey, you could not blame him for the murder. The murderer is Man A. No exact, objective morality can be prescribed for an issue where a man's life is endangered.

Post 135

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 2:53pmSanction this postReply
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OK, you win. Obviously I don't have any idea what I'm talking about. I leave you all to your Objectivist ethics.
--
Jeff

Post 136

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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Ayn Rand:
In a case of that kind, you cannot morally judge the action of Man B. Since he is under the threat of death, whatever he decides to do is right, because this is not the kind of moral situation in which men could exist.
Rand is focused here on passing moral judgment, not on living well. Of course, she is not "to blame" for limiting her answer to moral judgment (rather than living well), the "limiter" is the questioner -- that "Norman" guy.
 
 
This is an emergency situation. Man B, in this case, is placed in a position where he cannot continue to exist. Therefore, what he does is up to him. If he refuses to obey, and dies, that is his moral privilege. If he prefers to obey, you could not blame him for the murder. The murderer is Man A.
What Rand doesn't say -- but wouldn't disagree with -- is that if a man had built up his character, he may morally choose not to obey (rather than to choose to live). This is because part of moral evaluation of hyper-individualized circumstances involves assessment of character -- as well as assessment of actions/choices. Considering his writings in this thread, on that note about the immorality of transgressing your own built character, Jeff is "right."
 
 
No exact, objective morality can be prescribed for an issue where a man's life is endangered.
This is because morality depends on life, and on viable alternatives. Where life can't be, neither can morality. The new issue, the new moral goal, the new "ultimate value" in these hypothetical, Sophie's-Choice dilemmas -- is to aim at getting back to normal life (where an exact, objective morality can be prescribed).
 
This is why I said that there can be a transient, pragmatic-stage in moral emergencies -- but that doesn't leave us aimless.
 
Ed


 
 


Post 137

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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HOLD IT!

This quote from Rand is way too easy, as is Bill’s earlier citing of the story of a woman being tortured then threatened with death if she didn’t machete her cellmate. Torture is a most extreme coercion—Jeff, Galt and even Elmo would do probably anything to gain relief from it.

But let’s go back a bit and ask Bill to address his earlier statements, which arose from Rick’s questioning. What if the pharmacist turns out to be in the store and needs the medicine for HIS wife? Bill’s response: “If the choice is between your wife's survival and the survival of the pharmacists wife, you choose your wife's survival.” He would kill the pharmacist and steal the medicine, (which kill’s the pharmacist’s wife.) Two dead innocents. Rand’s “The murderer is Man A” doesn’t apply here. No, the murderer is man B, (B for Bill.)



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Post 138

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 8:46pmSanction this postReply
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The metaphysical versus the man-made.

The emergency from Rand’s quote is man-made. The emergency the captive and tortured woman faced was man-made. She’s not responsible for killing her cellmate, rather the men who made her emergency are.

The emergency the man with the sick wife faced is not man-made, it’s just bad luck. There is no one to point to and place blame upon.

It surprises me that Bill has no interest in the distinction.

And the disinterest is extreme. I gave a hypothetical of people going up Everest with no preparation. He held fast: when the emergency emerges, they may kill whomever to survive. No consideration for the reality that heading up Everest with no preparation is itself an initiation of force against the others up there, given the foreseeable results. No interest in any of that—just: Hey, when the shit hits the fan, what’s your top value, man? Jeff was onto something when he raised Bill’s value-determinism.



Post 139

Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 10:33pmSanction this postReply
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No consideration for the reality that heading up Everest with no preparation is itself an initiation of force against the others up there, given the foreseeable results.

EXactly.

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