RoR: Forum

   Jeeeeez.

   And I'm 'new' here.

   Can't wait to read what Linz has to post about this; I mean, he IS the 800 lb gorilla in the middle of this whole...whatever it is, no?

   I must say: correct or not in such amateur-diagnosing, such amateur 'shock-therapy' is no way to go about anything. I can't believe the supporters (especially certain ones) I've read for this, so-called...'article.'

MTFBWY--all

J-D

Post 41

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 1:57pm

Alcoholic, n. One who drinks more or more often than some other(s), who call him an "alcoholic," want him to.

Alcoholism, n. The habit of drinking more or more often than some other(s), who speak superciliously of "alcoholism," want one to.

JR

Post 42

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 3:19pm

Linz may or may not have a drinking problem (where is the pic of him with the wine bottle, btw?), but I do find it ironic that those who advocate his belligerent outbursts against others are now trying to protect him from others speaking their minds and not mincing words.

I will grant one thing to the defenders: objectivity must reign here, and as someone who does not know Linz or James personally, I have erred in speaking up (though I did predicate my words with "if", admitting that I do not know for sure.) That those who know Linz are split on the matter suggests that this is beyond the scope of a stranger, and it's made me think about the danger of getting attached to people met from online forums. Though SOLO did seem more open, like family, and maybe that's why this is in the open.

If Linz's problem is not alcohol, one fact remains, however. His rage and attitude. First I thought he was an asshole, but I liked his passion, and his dedication to his values. I rationalized his behavior as either a ploy to get others passionate the way a director might enrage his actors to get a performance. On music, I stopped taking his rants seriously and considered it a generation gap, the ramblings not of an Objectivist but a cranky old man bemoaning the next generation. But after the recent incidents, I found myself taking sides between friends, not enemies. I tried to understand both sides. But I can't do it any longer. I think Linz has alienated too many good people, and I can't stand idly by and pretend that it's ok.

I was ready to write him off as an asshole. When James wrote his article, I was willing to believe him because I assumed he had a close relationship with Linz. And I was ready to try to see Linz in another light, as someone with a problem that is destroying his better half. Others now claim to have such a relationship and make counter charges.

Now I don't know what to believe.

But the defenders are right, it is not good to psychologize what one doesn't know. So I will stop trying, and make my judgement based on my own observations from him at SOLO, which is this: Linz is a passionate person who is also, for whatever reason, attacks too much and is ruled by his anger, and is pushing away the very people he shouldn't. And given that he is not afraid to give his psychological judgements on others here in public, with his frequent charges of "sick, Saddamite, weasel, scum," and so-forth to people who have tried to understand him, I make no apologies.
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 7/31, 3:44pm)

Post 43

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:02pm

James, you've raised a difficult issue - it is more widespread than the subject of your article, and has many layers for a lot of us. A word of caution - when our New Zealander's talk about "alcoholics," they mean the 1950's version: the drunk who sleeps in the gutter and then crashes into the office, trenchcoat swinging, screaming curses at the boss.

I am sorry that you did not discuss your concerns in a face to face conversation. When we have something difficult to say, in this type of forum, it's imperative that we pick up the phone or visit. It is more honest, and shows you have the courage of your convictions.

I stand by the passion and reason that Lindsay has brought to SOLO and the world. He has fought against joy-killers and neurotics who would tear down the accomplishments of others. To the extent that any of us on SOLO are doing things that inhibit our ability to strengthen our minds and enjoy life in its absolute sensual glory, I appeal that we would all keep our selves safe. These are dangerous times, and the wolf is disguised. There are many robbers of ecstasy, in many forms. Das dicke end kompt noch, make no mistake, what we are doing here is a precious and serious business.

Julia

Post 44

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 8:40pm

Julia said:

"A word of caution - when our New Zealander's talk about "alcoholics," they mean the 1950's version: the drunk who sleeps in the gutter and then crashes into the office, trenchcoat swinging, screaming curses at the boss."

Julia, sweetheart, baby, what the hell are you talking about?

"...our New Zealander's"? Well, now I know what it feels like to be a pet. I love my American cousins dearly, but I'm not silly enough to refer to them as "my Americans." Please.

And, pray tell, exactly how is a non-Kiwi alcoholic defined vis a Kiwi alchy?

Ross

Post 45

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 8:49pm

James,

As I have written in another thread, to make his apologies real Linz needs to identify the cause of his errors and fix it. But that is something that only Linz can do - nobody here can do it for him. If you wish to suggest something that Linz needs to consider, you can do that with private e-mail. But going public with a presumed - and presumptuous - "diagnosis" is as far beyond the bounds of respectful discourse, as the inadequately grounded invective that Linz periodically apologizes for.

When it is rational and just, Linz's rage is a wonderful thing that no one wishes Linz to change out of. When midirected by inadequately tested deductions, it is something whose cause needs to be identified and fixed. But those errors are Linz's to track down and fix. Not yours, not mine, not anybody's other than Linz.

Your assumption that just because you can think of one possible cause, then the one potential cause that you happened to think of must be the cause that's responsible, is so deeply into non-objective primacy-of-consciousness pseudo-epistemology it's almost offensive in a Randian forum.

I can think of a half-dozed potential causes for Linz's occasional errors, and alcoholism isn't even in the top four. And that's just from the one graduate survey course in clinical psych that I had to take to qualify for the doctoral program in cognitive/mathematical psychology. It is not totally impossible that "alcoholism" is somehow involved, but it's unlikely.

All right, James, alcoholism is the explanation you thought of because you have encountered it in another context; the other plausible causes you may never have heard of. If you had just e-mailed Linz with your possible insight, no one would have thought to think ill of you for your concern. But this?

So you care, and you meant well. Is that an excuse?

Post 46

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 8:52pm

Peter said:

I'm not sure which is worse, being patronised or insulted.

In his good days, Linz handles both superbly. If he let this article through, then I assume he will be man enough to handle it. And I'd solute him for that.

From all the posts in this and the other thread, no matter how different everyone's opinion is, I have yet to see a single one that bears ill wish toward Linz.

And that, that is the common ground for all of us here.

Post 47

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 9:42pm

Great heavens, Ross. Well, I like your DogMan picture. If only we could sanction profile art!

Uhhh . . . in the States there's a huge recovery culture where the definition is different than overseas. I guess what I said sounded hurtful, I did NOT mean that. I was using it to point out the need to communicate verbally.

More important, you would ENJOY being my pet. I give only the tastiest treats and best treatment in your favorite locations. By the way, looking at your profile I bet you could translate my little phrase in German. If you do, I'll give you a reward!

Best regards,

Julia

Post 48

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 9:44pm

When he first submitted this article, James asked me not to run it without Linz's permission. At first, I thought it should be run because I believed what James said in the article might be true; he was not the first person from whom I had heard these rumors and allegations.

I now realize I was very wrong in that belief ... the entire premise of those crying "alcoholic!"�i.e., that Lindsay is destroying his friendships with booze�is rendered completely unbelievable by the swift defenses mounted by his friends, especially those who live in New Zealand and know him most closely. (And no one with a shred of decency will suggest that Peter Cresswell, Philip Howison, Derek McGovern, Ross Elliot, Scott DeSalvo, Marcus Bachler, Robert Winefield, and Tibor Machan are all self-deceiving "enablers.")

I emailed Linz with my opinion that we should run the article, whether it was true or false. In his reply, he denounced this article and denied its claims in no uncertain terms. But, he also believed that it should run, and despite the complaints of many SOLOists, I stand by that decision.

I still think one of the worst aspects of some of the recent departures from SOLO has been the secrecy surrounding them ... we never knew who said what in an email to whom, or why. This has given the SOLO-snipers license to take endless potshots at Lindsay, attributing the splits to all manner of underhanded tactics and alleged character flaws on his part. That stuff isn't going to wash this time around. If James leaves in a huff, I want everyone to know why: he thinks Lindsay is an alcoholic, and that this compels him to publicly air his suspicions and leave the site.

Say, instead, that we had decided not to publish this. James and Barbara would have left in the aftermath of a thread where there was already some speculation that Linz had a drinking problem, and where James had already said he was submitting an article titled "Drooling Beast." Had we not aired this dirty laundry, that would have snowballed into a whisper campaign, and behind SOLO's back would have been spread the lie that the Founder and Principal was a drunk, and was too deep in denial to confront the problem.

James has already been taken to task quite effectively in this thread. But I notice that Barbara Branden has also been encouraging SOLOists to read this article, and tacitly endorsing its content. Now, I have only what I read on these threads to help me evaluate this conflict. But I think it is instructive that she is willing to lend credence to Mr. Kilbourne's statements about Lindsay Perigo, which are characterized by an almost complete lack of evidence, while dismissing those made against Jim Peron, in the face of reams of evidence establishing the truth of his support for NAMBLA and pedophilia, all of which is far more heinous than alcoholism could possibly be.

Tonight, I will posting three new articles for SOLOists to sink their teeth into, and we will move on from this fiasco. To those who found this article and its publishing distasteful, I apologize and share your disgust. But I believe its public posting is a bitter tonic that will ensure the longer-term health of SOLO.

(Edited by Andrew Bissell on 7/31, 10:30pm)

Post 49

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 9:48pm

Just a few quick comments:

I thank those who determined my motives to be good here- they were. Whatever happens in the future, I think Linz has done great things and has the potential to be one of the major forces for freedom in the world.

Joe, your posts I found particularly moving and thoughtful. I hope I have not condemned you by praising you.

To those who felt that this was the first time I have brought this subject up, I refer you to the Cordera "Lessons Learned" thread for a more thorough listing of my attempts. I have sent three full articles to Linz on my feelings over the last nine months, plus quite a number of private posts back and forth with several people involved- this is the final step in a long, agonizing process. I accept responsibility for taking it, but any who think it was done easily, quickly or with any sense of happiness about it misunderstand me completely.

Julia - I do think the term "alcoholic" must have a much worse connotation in New Zealand. Perhaps, as some of you refer to me as an overly sensitive American, we have become much more at peace with the term.

The people who were everything from "uncomfortable" to "outraged" at this article I think expressed themselves pretty well here, in general. Some have obviously not read up on the subject (believe me, if you only drink one kind of alcohol, it is NOT a sign that you are not an alcoholic)- some expressed ideas that were the very ones that gave me great pause before I said anything; ideas that I kept to myself for the better part of a year.

Post 50

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 9:49pm

Hong,

You are a sweetheart. You gave me a direction for thought. For one of the few times in my life I have been stuck for what to say. I was completely taken aback when Linz announced that he would not post for two weeks, then I was taken aback again by this article.

I am torn between very great people - and I love and admire them all (as does Kat).

In general, what you said about Linz is true - nobody bears ill will toward him. In general, that is true of Barbara and James also.

If you look at their statements, they do not bear ill will toward each other, either.

That being a common ground, hopefully there is a way to work all this out.

About alcoholism, a fact I know with absolute certainty is that I am one (and an addict). That is why I no longer drink (nor use drugs) - and I have not for years.

I have no way to discuss what Linz drinks or not in the manner that is being done here. So I simply will not. If I ever feel the need to discuss this with him, I will do so in private.

I do want to say something serious, however. Linz is one I love. Barbara is also. James is on the way. I do not like it when people talk bad about them. I don't care if they disagree with each other, post articles like the one here, go over the top on insults, or whatever. I will not stand by idly if people start trashing them.

Linz's anger, once again, is based on deeply held rational values. His form of contempt and outbursts are not measured and they go out of control at times.

Barbara's (and James's) views are based on deeply held rational values. They are at a loss about how to deal with sporadic lack of emotional control in a friend they both love and respect.

I will not bear my ire on any one of them. I love them too much. My ire is reserved for anyone who will try to use this episode as an excuse to start trashing them.

So thank you, Hong, for pointing out that there is a very high level of good will flying around. Score one for Solo.

Michael

Post 51

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:07pm

Just a postscript to Michael's post...It is easy to do armchair psychologizing, but we should always remember that there is a huge difference between our real enemies and our friends when we disagree. Linz has apologized and taken some time off to consider the situation. He is dealing with the issues and has asked for everyone's patience and support.

(Edited by katdaddy on 7/31, 10:08pm)

Post 52

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:08pm

Andrew:

I suspected as much and I'm glad to hear that good strategy and the desire for a satisfactory denouement are still alive and well at SOLO.

Julia:

I'm not offended by your comments. You just painted such a vivid picture of drunks wheeling through NZ streets that I had visions of vodka-soused Russia before the wall came down.

And exactly what little phrase should I translate? Woof!

Ross

Post 53

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:12pm

DogMan,

Post number 43. Pay attention! (loving smack)

Julia

Post 54

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:18pm

Adam,
Very well said. I am new here and I don't know Lindsay, but I believe he is the only one who would really know the truth of the role alcohol plays in his life and what, if any, effect it has on his behavior. If he is aware of the impression it makes on his friends and family and if change in this area will better serve him, then it is his responsibility. I trust he is able to act in his own best interests.

I also share your sentiments Hong. -Steve

Post 55

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:35pm

Julia

Yes, you may be found out in the end...

And, let's get one thing straight, Miss, if there's any spanking to done around here, I'LL! be doin' it. Verstanden?

Post 56

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:54pm

I was going to post that I thought Linz wanted Kilbourne article published to show what a pant load the guy is. It seems everyone that has known Linz for a long time defended him, while people on the other side of the planet were giving a medical diagnosis. I'm glad Andrew's post proves me right.

Linz insulted Kilbourne, Kilbourne drops the context that Linz always makes "over the top"-passionate comments, but then Linz made an apology and Kilbourne accepted.

That's how it went down, right?

Oh I forgot, Kilbourne called Linz a coward, then a Drunk. I guess Kilbourne is "special," he gets a pass in making insults.

Post 57

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 10:59pm

Wow. Miss dropping by SOLO for a few days, and one misses a lot. I really have not much to say except this:

Regardless of our often strident disagreements, I regard Lindsay Perigo as one of the Good Guys and I wish him the best (ditto for Barbara Branden who, if I'm reading this thread correctly, has chosen to leave SOLO).

Without any criticism intended toward anyone who has hypothesized a "problem" (in general or in particular) on Mr. Perigo's part, I hope we can agree that the most important thing anyone who cares about him can do is to honor his work by continuing to make it manifest, here on SOLO and elsewhere.

Regards,
Tom Knapp

Post 58

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 11:57pm

Grrr . . .Wow! Only on SOLO can we be having a terrifyingly serious conversation, and have to break outside for a sex-talk fix. ;)

And only on SOLO do we then break for historical documentation: the Devil's Brigade, joint American-Canadian commando unit, 1st Special Service Force landed in Italia, in Anzio, WWII. Passages from a German soldier's diary reads "The black devils (Die schwarze Teufeln) are all around us every time we come into the line." Black because the brigade's members smeared their faces with black boot polish for their covert operations in the dark of night. There's a saying in German, "the thick end comes still". The Devil's Brigade was terrorizing the Germans with silent killings and random strikes on strong points. To heighten the effect, they put that saying on cards with the Force logo, and during the night would insert them into doors and on the corpses of German soldiers. Talk about your psy-ops. See, "Das Dicke Ende Kommt Noch," in the colloquial meaning, reads "The Worst is Yet to Come."

Julia

Post 59

Monday, August 1, 2005 - 12:11am