RoR: Forum

I don't know that I should be the first person to comment here, but since I am up...

James, very powerful, and saddening. If this is truly the case, then it does put things in a different perspective. Not to make excuses, but I've been around people with addictions enough to know how it goes.

I was remembering something today that has may have relevance now. Back when Orion Reasoner was posting his rants about genocide, I was one of the people to suggest moderation/banning. Though it did come to that, Linz was surprisingly sympathetic to Orion, if not his ideas, then to the possibility that there was something else behind Orion's views, and Linz tried to reach out to him. This man condemns rap and rock fans to the 11�h rung of hell, but reaches out to a person advocating genocide. It never made sense to me then, but maybe it does now.

If what you say is the truth, I think I will keep this in mind and remember Linz's reaching out to another in a similar situation. If past good deeds don't excuse the present deeds, they should at least count for something.

At the risk of talking psychobabble, it is a time to face inner demons. As Jung would say, withdraw the shadow projections and face the shadow. Or as Branden would say, face up to the disowned self.

Linz, again, I don't know if this is all true. But if it is, I hope you take responsibility, and I will waste no time with weasel words: get a grip, man. Do not be another alchoholic waste in my life to write off.

But you get yourself together, and you will be one of the few in my life to be able to say that he did. And I expect nothing less from an Objectivist.

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 7/31, 1:52am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 7/31, 3:29am)

Post 1

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 2:23am

James, it's so good of you to write this. You must care a lot about Linz and SOLO to write it.

My sense is that Linz doesn't realize is how truly appreciated he is around here. It might be that people don't say it often enough. And it also might be that Linz is not the easiest guy to talk to. He has style, can be most kind (and contrary!) in a flash, is highly intelligent and at the same time is not a great listener.

What Linz drinks is none of my business and unless he chooses to talk about it I'm not interested in hammering him on it. Some here might know his booze per day ratio. I don't. If he's interested on giving the details that's up to him.

For what it's worth, I myself will drink 2 or 3 bottles of wine a week. Some weeks none at all. Some weeks I will outdo myself. With good friends around there is nothing better than putting a few bottles away together. I've sworn off the hard stuff with rare exceptions.

Like you James, I try to avoid calling alcoholism a disease. I have a friend who was dry for 7 years who went back to drinking and from what I gather it is a problem for him (again). I really don't know what to make of it because his experience with it is so different from my own. I've been to edge of being an every day drinker and have always been able to stop. When I try to discuss it with my friend it's like neither of us have any idea what the other is talking about.

Linz, as I said elsewhere, you're a good guy. SOLO wouldn't be what it is without your hard work, your unique style and your passion for life. If you were having difficulties (of any kind) I'd do what I could to help. I expect that what James is saying is right on the mark but, well, how can I be sure?

If you do have a problem with the booze just say so. It's not the end of the world. It's a problem. Problems get fixed. We all know negative whispers chase behind boozers. What people say or think mean little to nothing. The only people who matter are the ones who care about you. Looking around there are more than a few here who do.

The only way to solve a problem is through the problem.

Post 2

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 2:29am

I'm not sure which is worse, being patronised or insulted. Perhaps what's worse is being insulting in the guise of being helpful, which is what your are doing here, James. Shame on you.

Post 3

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 2:40am

James, it was courageous of you to write this -- and especially courageous of Linz to allow its publication. Linz, I salute you for it, with all my heart.

I think it is the truth, from my limited experience of alcoholism. But I, like James, know from personal experience with an addict that it can be resolved and that its resolution leads to a happier life than the addict can yet imagine. And I know that the failure to resolve it leads only to tragedy. Linz, do it! -- get help, and do it! I think you have no idea how many people love you and will be pulling for you and wishing you well.

Barbara

Post 4

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 3:36am

Should this really be the subject of an article?

Post 5

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 3:52am

I agree with Peter and Abolaji. Patronising and insulting, and not worthy of an article. Even if it was true, it should hardly be an issue to leave SOLO over, for either Barbara or James. And James, I know you have experience with addiction, but that doesn't mean you can diagnose someone from the other side of the world.

A worse problem than Lindsay's occasional outbursts is what seems like an American culture of over-sensitivity, not saying what you really mean, and the sort of puritanism that condemns alcohol use as necessarily self-destructive. I could add to that the habits more usually associated with the ARI of lacking a sense of humour, holding grudges and purging former friends for the slightest disagreement.

Post 6

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 4:03am

Philip, no one is saying that alchohol use is in itself self-destructive. But if it's used irrationally, then it is.

And I'll someone with a weak sense of humor over a drunken life of the party any day.

And since you want everyone to say what they mean and stop being oversensitive, fine.

I've seen my mother up agains the fucking wall by one of your fun loving alcoholics, nearly killed. I've seen that same mother run away from home, abandoned her family under the influence of drugs. (She is one of the few in my life who has turned around and I am proud to call my mother again.) My father killed himself, no thanks to his alcoholic father. (He's one of the one's I never got to know.) I've seen my uncles ruin their lives, I've lost friends in drunk driving accidents, I've seen musical careers go belly up in beerpuke, and I've had the pleasure of finding out on Christmas day that a good friend died from a heroin overdose. Oversensitive?

Go fuck yourself with a bottle of tequila, you prick. And make sure you shove the worm straight up your ass.

Is this what you want, a website where everyone speaks their minds and doesn't mince words? This is what you'll get.

DON'T YOU GET IT??? PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO SAVE SOMEONE THEY LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 7/31, 4:12am)

Post 7

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 4:45am

Joe, my post was aimed at James, not you. I don't think your personal tragedies have anything to do with Linz's drinking habits, the difference is orders of magnitude. I personally know Linz and I don't believe he needs saving. I don't know why you and others are talking about tequila, hard liquor, or even heroin - Linz sticks to the red wine.

Just to be perfectly clear:
1) Linz is not an alcoholic.
2) James is not trying to save someone he loves. I don't know what he is doing but if he was trying to "save" Linz, why is he leaving SOLO?
3) Being "oversensitive" is when you leave SOLO after one insulting outburst rather than accepting an apology, laughing it off and refusing to hold a grudge over it.

Post 8

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 4:59am

Philip, I know you were aiming it at James, not me. Yes, I am defending James. But when you say, " A worse problem than Lindsay's occasional outbursts is what seems like an American culture of over-sensitivity, not saying what you really mean, and the sort of puritanism that condemns alcohol use as necessarily self-destructive", you are attacking me, whether you know it or not. And I am not a mean person, nor even a mean drunk, but this is what happens when a person passionately posts out of anger, and events lately have me very angry. And I'll be damned if some foreigner is going to blame this on American oversensitivity and tell me about alcohol abuse.
And I don't know you, but for you to make that accusation against James is very serious, just as serious as it is for James to make his claim. I don't know your experience with alcoholics, if any. I don't know how well you know Linz. I don't know if Linz is an alcoholic, but if he isn't, he's simply an asshole. I don't know much, do I? But I do know my experiences with alcoholics and addicts, and so does James.

And, I do know this: for James to do this in the name of anything other than his stated purpose would be one of the most vicious, evil things anyone could do to another human being. And I don't think James or Barbara are capable of that, and to attribute any other motive to them smacks of some serious conspiracy theory that I would pray does not exist. And if I were to apply Occam's or Rand's razor or even a boxcutter to this, judging solely by Linz's history versus Barbara's and James's, I'd have to cut out the conspiracy theory.

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 7/31, 5:07am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 7/31, 5:13am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 7/31, 5:14am)

Post 9

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 5:24am

James: Linz may be commendably passionate about red wine, but he is most definitely not an alcoholic. Where are you getting your information from? This diagnosis simply doesn't stack up. I mean, if Linz really were an alcoholic, then why are we not witnessing drunken outbursts from him on a near-daily basis?

I've known Linz for over 25 years, and if I really believed that his drinking was out of control, then I would tell him. What's more, if he were an alcoholic, then I'd expect a few tell-tale signs of liver damage by now. Instead, that organ continues to enjoy rude health - something that Linz's physician points out to him at his regular check-ups.

What you must understand is that even if Linz were the most abstemious person on the planet, he would still blow his stack from time to time. That's the nature of the man. No matter how kindly intended, your misdiagnosis does him one hell of an injustice.

(Edited by Derek McGovern on 7/31, 7:04am)

Post 10

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 5:53am

Well, I must say, this is all rather strange.

Is the article queue still being moderated? Is Andrew in charge of it? If so, then according to James, his article has only been published with Lindsay's consent. If not, then something is seriously amiss. Something or someone is being circumvented and/or someone is telling pork pies. Nes pas?

Either way, the airing of so much dirty laundry in public is distasteful. Want to see SOLO go down in flames? Then keep this up.

Ross

Post 11

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:09am

Is this some kind of bad joke? I'll grant that I don't know Linz personally, but why publicly accuse the man of alcoholism? Is this going to be SOLO's equivalent of an ARI-style denunciation?

Post 12

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:11am

Everyone, I am sorry that I am going off, it's not going to help anything. I don't know what will help. I'm not apologizing for my anger, and my opinion hasn't changed, but for my means of dealing with it, and I am excusing myself from this, rather ungracefully unfortunately.

Post 13

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:20am

Unbelievable.

What the fuck has this site become; Sense of Life �Outers" ? What is this now, some 1960s Berkeley encounter group singing �Qum-Ba-Ya�? Is this an Objectivist forum, or has it become a full-time soap opera?

Believe me, there is no love lost between Mr. Perigo and myself, but this is truly an absolute new low in the history of SOLO. Unless someone here has been hired by Linz as his private psychotherapist: the one and only person that has the moral right to post an article of this nature, is Lindsay Perigo himself.

Are we now in the business of doing public �interventions�? Is public humiliation the new tool for helping a friend? It�s one thing to do a confessional�introspective article on your own life; it�s something quite different to presume to have the right to �confess� in someone else�s behalf.

And if, Lindsay himself did agree or consent to have this article published within SOLOs open forum (which I simply cannot believe), then it�s not alcoholism he suffers from, but insanity.

What a tawdry, melodramatic, and disgusting episode this has become.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 7/31, 6:48am)

Post 14

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:30am

What a strange article!

What is the relationship between alleged alcoholism and remaining associated with SOLO?

What is the evidence of alcoholism?

I'm agog.

I met Linz, once, at SOLOC in Philly. He drank one night, whilst everyone else was doing likewise. He was utterly appropriate, and was sharp as a tack the next morning. He wasn't drinking any sort of alcohol at the conference itself.

But my anecdotal evidence means nothing.

Why would it be my business if Linz drinks too much?

How is this a public matter?

Let me ask you--if you had a friend with a problem, would you take out space in a newpaper to address it, or would you address it privately? Would you sky-write "I''m Leaving!!!" or discuss your departure privately and then agree how it ought to be announced?

STRANGE, STRANGE, STRANGE.

Post 15

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:43am

I have never had experience of an alcoholic, so I wouldn't know what to look for - but when several people that have known Linz for a very long time say he isn't, I believe them.

Also I do indeed remember Linz informing us a few years ago that all his organs had a clean bill of health, the problem was his blood pressure.

From "personal" experience I do know for a fact that people with a problem of high blood pressure can be like raging bulls. I remember a lab colleague once told me that her father drove the family completely bonkers, then he went on blood pressure medication and was suddenly a different person.

Although Linz takes medication for it, his blood pressure may still "periodically" be a problem.
I wish we weren't discussing his health in this way, because the man nearly died of related heart problems a few years ago, and that really concerns me.

Anyone that has met Linz in person, must realize that he has a "heart of gold" and a soaring spirit and sense of life to match.

He comes across as a completely different person when you meet him face to face then he does on the forum board. In person he is warm and understanding and takes time to discuss the issues with you.

On the forum board Linz and everyone else comes across as being much more aggressive (including Barbara and James), because you are not face to face with that person, but blowing off steam at a computer.

However, some of us (Linz included) expect to get as good as we give. Others, find any criticism to be a massive blow to their egos and are easily insulted. Both positions could be a reflection of a low self-esteem.

A need to constantly prove that you are right, or a need to be free from criticism. Many people are a mixture of both.

I think one could fault anyone for anything if one wanted to, on the other hand one could find only positives about somebody else if one wanted to. Perspective and context.

At the end of the day, we have decide what is really important to us and never stop questioning our assumptions.

Where do you stand philosophically and what are your values? What is most important to you in your hierarchy of values? Why is it most important? What is your vision for SOLO? What do you personally want SOLO to achieve? How are you going to achieve it?

Maybe it is time for us all to question our motives and our own behaviour.

Post 16

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 6:47am

I will be making a lengthier post later today discussing the decision to publish this article. In the meantime, suffice to say that the ultimate decision to run it rested with Lindsay, that neither of us agree with its conclusions, and that he believed the costs of not publishing it would be greater than the costs of airing it and getting it out in the open.
(Edited by Andrew Bissell on 7/31, 6:52am)

Post 17

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 7:12am

Bravo, Marcus!

I, too, am concerned about the impact of all this on Linz's real health problems. Can we stop putting him through the shredder now?

Post 18

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 7:24am

Andrew:

"In the meantime, suffice to say that the ultimate decision to run it rested with Lindsay, that neither of us agree with its conclusions, and that he believed the costs of not publishing it would be greater than the costs of airing it and getting it out in the open. "

Well, the phrase "give 'em enough rope" comes readily to mind. Perhaps "hoist on their own petard" fits just as well.

Ross

Post 19

Sunday, July 31, 2005 - 7:36am