RoR: Forum

That's an evasion, not an answer...

Post 261

Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 5:27pm

Who owes what to whom now?

Post 262

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 9:30am

Although I can understand [and agree with] the disgust about the state of K thru PhD education in the U.S., this so-called "unschooling" concept would appear to be a basic denial of reality. The truth is that much opportunity [unless created only by the individual] requires certain credentials. The unfortunate, and perhaps unintended, consequences of a decision to "unschool" one's children will be borne by those children.

Those children may find that they carry many disadvantages into their adulthood that were levied on them by otherwise well-meaning parents. Such disadvantages, as may be perceived by those children, may present serious setbacks, disappointments and seemingly unnecessary challenges to those young adults. Typically, many young adults are not up to such challenges at that time in their lives. Often, they will opt for parenthood and other life decisions that will result in less than desirable outcomes....perhaps so in the eyes of those parents who made the choice for "unschooling" on behalf of those children.

Education is in a sorry state today. I see it first-hand.....from entry-level candidates to masters-degreed applicants. I believe that a highschool grad from the early 60's had a better and more useful education than most college graduates have today. The answer to this problem lies with those of us who actually have the passion to correct the problem. It most certainly will do no good to withhold from our children the necessary access to the credentials demanded by "the real world out there".

Our schools are filled with children who do not want to learn. Our teachers cannot [and will not] teach those children who do not want to learn. We must construct a practical and credible educational opportunity for those who do want to learn. Some of the expressed benefits of "unschooling" can and should be incorporated into such a credible education. However, that education must carry with it the credentials....a performance guarantee....necessary for graduates to enter a world workplace. Competition is reality. An "unschooled" person will not likely be at the top of any class regardless of capabilities.

A parent owes a child a solid foundation from which to pursue his dreams and aspirations. A parent cannot know those dreams and aspirations until the child confirms them much later in life. The foundation so essential to any child's future is education. A degree is nothing more than an opportunity. Proof is needed after that. Like it or not, in most cases the opportunities arise from the achievement of certain credentials....educational degrees or substantial experience. I seriously doubt that the "unschooling" concept presented will achieve anything more than a fleeting sense of satisfaction for the apparently short-sighted parents.

Hillsdale College in Michigan presents a practical approach to education free of state or federal funding. Objectivists are a part of Hillsdale life. No, I am not a Hillsdale alumnus. I am a member of the Board of Directors of a Michigan charter school making effective improvements on a less than effective public school system.

Post 263

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 12:44pm

I probably shouldn't interject myself into your current discussion, but I couldn't resist.

Don't we have a president right now that managed to stay illiterate in important senses of the word despite going to Yale? Or is that just me being mean-spirtited?

:-)

Post 264

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 1:56pm

Whatever happened to trade schools?

Post 265

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 4:31pm

About Church sponsored schools - for all my misgivings about Christian churches, their promotion of education is the one good thing they have done that have benefited many people. In my city, 9 out of 10 private schools are associated with Churches - Catholic, Episcopal, Jesuit, Cistercian, Lutheran, etc. Some of them don't have any religious content in their curriculum, except a daily prayer and a weekly chapel service of a pan-religious nature. These would be a small price to pay for a top notched education in science, humanities, arts, and sports. Besides, tuitions for Church subsidized schools usually are lower. ;-)

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/26, 4:32pm)

Post 266

Friday, January 26, 2007 - 4:59pm

I agree completely with Lee's post. Very well put!

I used to think I'd turn to teaching rather than retire - but I'd be no more welcome in today's colleges than I'd want to work there. (excellent book: Prof Scam by Charles J. Sykes)

K-12 and the Universities are in an awful state. But they need to be reclaimed - not abandoned.

(Edited by Steve Wolfer
on 1/26, 4:59pm)

Post 267

Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 11:31am

Hong:

(Uh-h, yeah; I'm back. Wow; what a discussion on 'education' in general, including the worth of its lack.) Totally agreed with your last post. Did 8-yrs at St. Mary's (really, the nuns were good, education A-N-D take-no-crap requirements) and 4 at Sacred Heart (some nuns, a priest or two on theology, and seculars.) Definitely worth not being left/kept ignorant on too many things, regardless the theology ingrained!

LLAP
J:D

P.S: I realize that some(?!)times my posts are hard to read. I been working on it; clearly not too successfully, so far. Ah, well...

(Edited by John Dailey on 1/28, 9:09pm)

Post 268

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 4:30pm

I am getting so tired of waiting for my copy of TLH to arrive! It's been weeks since I ordered it!

Post 269

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 4:41pm

Sometimes Grace is kind of slow with these things, Wesley. I probably should have warned you about that.

Post 270

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 5:07pm

Please go re-study your middle school US history.

It's definitely an evasion. Unfortunately, I wasn't expecting a real answer to the question.

George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, and John Quincy Adams all started college as teenagers. If you were wealthy (as all of them were), this was what you did. They were all literate.

Andrew Jackson was the first President who was poor, but even he was often selected as a "public reader" when he was a child and teenager.

Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, and John Tyler also started college as teenagers.

James Polk is one possiblity as he was often in poor health as a child. He did not start at North Carolina until he was 20 or 21.

Of course, Polk was President in the 1840's. I don't know if he can be considered an "early" President.

Given that several early US presidents were illiterate until they were adults, I found this hard to believe.

I'm still waiting for some evidence to back up this claim. I'm definitely not holding my breath.

Post 271

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 5:15pm

Here is the book which tells the story of the Colfax boys, three unschoolers who all graduated from Harvard:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780446389860&itm=7

They got the attention of the Harvard Crimson:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=132239

Here they are in the New York Times:

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/harvard_university/index.html?query=COLFAX,%20REED&field=per&match=exact

Once again, DAVID and MICKI COLFAX will have the pleasure of seeing a son graduate magna cum laude from Harvard. At today's commencement, it will be REED COLFAX, 22 years old, the third of their four children, who will receive his degree with high honors, following in the path of his brothers Grant, 27, class of '87, and Drew, 24, '90. What makes the Colfax story exceptional -- beyond the collection of magna cum laude degrees -- is the fact that none of the young men ever attended an organize...

Grant Colfax is now a doctor.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 1/29, 5:23pm)

Post 272

Monday, January 29, 2007 - 8:23pm

'Exceptions' do NOT make the 'rule.' Act like they do, and you're betting on a roulette wheel. For those raising kids, not a smart bet; for others, well, PC-talk's cheap. --- Counting on prodigies as representative of what were called typical kids is treating all cars as if they were expected to operate like Lamborghinis.

Now, about the historical facts re most 'school-DROPOUTS', (you know: those who find the 'worth' of unschooling later in life, and are legally allowed to do so)? Anyone any thoughts about the obvious NON-'exceptions'?

LLAP
J:D

Post 273

Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 2:29am

How are these examples of unschooling? They seemed to have been homeschooled. The parents had education plans, and taught them. Sure, at some point they advanced beyond their parents and studied on their own (even selecting their own study guides), but I would expect this from any home-schooled children. Isn't the point of "unschooling" that the parents leave them alone entirely in terms of education from the beginning? And isn't attending Harvard an example of schooling, as opposed to unschooling?

Post 274

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 7:11am

Chris - just keep going down the list until you get it. The time frame is not actually as early as I thought but that would supports my point even better.

BTW, you may not get all info from Wikipedia. A bit more research may be needed. OK, this homework is due next Monday. ;-)

Post 275

Thursday, February 1, 2007 - 6:48pm

Sometimes Grace is kind of slow with these things, Wesley. I probably should have warned you about that.

Actually, I ordered it from Walmart.com. I am very excited because it finally arrived today! After only reading the first three chapters, I already feel as though a large amount of weight has been lifted off of me... I feel lighter somehow.

Thank you so much for recommending this book to me!

Post 276

Friday, February 2, 2007 - 10:46am

I know for a fact that Grace hates Walmart, or at least she did back in 1997. It's been almost ten years since I was at her house in Eugene. I really hope I can see her again sometime.

Grace doesn't have a lot of money, so that's why I always tell people to order directly from her. There have been four main versions of the book, and I own all of them. I also own both versions of her book Real Lives.

Here is the 1998 edition. I gave away probably seven or eight of these:

Here is the out-of-print and hard-to-find international edition, published in 1997:

Here is the current edition, which is still listed as being published in 1998:

I haven't found a picture of the 1991 version, which just shows how rare that book is becoming. Some early editions are already reaching the $50 mark in the book-trading circuit. I first discovered Grace's book in the Laissez Faire Books catalog.

You'll become a glorious generalist soon, Wesley.

(Edited by Chris Baker on 2/02, 10:47am)

Post 277

Monday, February 5, 2007 - 8:45pm

I'm going to share some gems that I still have in my e-mail folders. These were posted to the NBTSC mailing list back in August 1999. NBTSC is the Not Back to School Camp, a week-long camp for unschoolers. It is run by Grace Llewellyn. It's site is www.nbtsc.org.

These two posts were written by a girl who was at the camp, but actually a student at a public high school at the time. These were her observations:

23 Aug 1999
ok, wait. do you go to a public HS or don't you? I'm confused. I go to
a public high school, and it is so much fun. And yes sadly enough it is
more focused on social than academic stuff, which is fun but definitely
not more beneficial. Also, I wouldn't ever drop out of school to
home/un-school, but I believe that if a child never goes to school it is
much much better not to, for many reasons, one of the main ones being that
I think that the peer pressure at school is just overwhelming, especially
in middle school, which I have just finished 3 years of and come out
acting and looking like a clone. The people I saw at NBTSC were all
original and not at all ashamed to be who they really were, which I
believe is so much more enriching to be around. So uh anyhow, I'm
probably boring you all to death here, so I'll go now. I'll talk to y'all
later! Jamie

20 Aug 1999
well, I'm not sure how you think, but I think that us public schoolers
tend to be a lot more superficial, and not as open and honest, but that's
not really having to do with how we think, that's more just the social
stuff we're around constantly. I mean, before I went to NBTSC, I had
never in my life met a girl over 13 or so who didn't shave or wear makeup,
and then like most of the camp didn't and it was kind of like, whoa,
reality check, all of a sudden I'm the abnormal one here. It was kinda
weird. I don't know if this answers your question at all, because I
didn't understand a lot of that thing you wrote, but I hope I could be of
some help :) love always- Jamie

Post 278

Tuesday, February 6, 2007 - 6:26am

It is great to hear that kind of feedback, Chris.

Post 279

Tuesday, February 6, 2007 - 8:10am