RoR: Forum

Regarding Dean's comments about Star, is someone like Star more in the position of a Howard Roark, where he is up against public opinion, yet still free to work and trade with others of his choosing, or is he in the role of a Galt, Wyatt, etc., where it is virtually impossible? Something tells me it's the former, since he is still on the air, and there are no government thugs shutting him down. You could invoke the Howard Stern's crucifixion by the FCC here as an example of what Star's up against, but Stern is having the last laugh on Sirius satellite radio, uncensored and free to speak his mind.

Re: "This is Dean Gores Speaking": Rand made a comment about civil disobedience: "You don't expect me to be out on the barricades, do you? It's much too soon for that." She believed that as long as free men were still able to speak out, there was still hope. Yet People like Lindsay Perigo have come to believe that "it's earlier than you think" for our ideals to take hold.

Dean, your passion is admirable. Let me ask you, where do you see our current status, the time of the Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, or situated in between?
I applaud your stand, because there are far too many who are content to say, as a character in WE THE LIVING does, that "it's not so bad." Yet that was Soviet Russia, and this is present day America. What is the justification for storming the barricade now (if that is indeed what you are saying)?

One personal plea: watch out for the Timothy McVeigh route. It's tempting when one gets in a state of rebellion. On the flip side, in defense of your manifesto, I think of Emerson's response to a friend who asked what he was doing in Jail: "Why aren't you in here with me?".

"Congratulations, Howard...you're on your way into Hell..."

Post 41

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 7:04pm

Regarding the barricade quote: I remember Barbara Branden, in an interview with Lindsay Perigo, claiming that if the U.S imposed a national ID card, SHE would be out on the barricades. I hadn't heard much of that since 9/11, however, it seems there is talk of imposing one again. If passed, it would threaten to be the equivalent to the biblical mark of the beast:

"Rev.13:16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

I suppose we've had this for some time in the form of the social security number, and this would be an extension of that harbinger of growing government intervention.

http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html

Post 42

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 7:48pm

And Dean, you've got me worked up...I've went through the desperation that you're exhibiting, and it's waking up conflicts in me I wanted to believe were fully resolved. And you got me hearing the Rolling Stones "Street Fighting Man". But I want to share with you these Moody Blues lyrics, especially this passage:

"Grow, the seeds of evolution.
Revolution never won,
It's just another form of gun
To do again what they have done
With all our brothers' youngest sons.

Lost In A Lost World

I woke up today, I was crying,
Lost in a lost world,
'Cos so many people are dying,
Lost in a lost world.
Some of them are living an illusion
Bounded by the darkness of their minds,
In their eyes it's nation against nation,
With racial pride, sad hearts they hide,
Thinking only of themselves,
They shun the light,
They think they're right
Living in the empty shells.

Oh, can you see their world is crashing?
Crashing down around their feet
And angry people in the street
Are telling them they've had their fill
Of politics that wound and kill.
Grow, the seeds of evolution.
Revolution never won,
It's just another form of gun
To do again what they have done
With all our brothers' youngest sons.

Everywhere you go you'll feel them searching,
Everywhere you turn you'll feel the pain,
Everyone is looking for the answer,
We'll look again, come on my friend,
Love will find them in the end.
Come on, my friend, we've got to bend
On our knees and say a prayer.

Oh, can you feel the world is pining?
Pining for someone who really cares
Enough to share his love
With all of us, so we can be
An ever-loving family.
Have you forgotten we're all children?
Children from a family tree
That's longer than a centipede
And started long ago
When you and I were only love.

I woke up today, I was crying,
Lost in a lost world,
'Cos so many people are dying,
Lost in a lost world.

Post 43

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 8:28pm

In my early 20's I lived as an artist in NYC. I listened everyday to WQXR, Classical Radio, one of their programers/DJs was a horrible whinny socialist, hahaha, he is still around and now he is focused on the Classical youth...of course! Anyway he made some horrible remark about America, that it did nothing for Classical musicians�I was almost as peeved as Dean is now. My grasp of politics and economics was that I had read Atlas Shrugged and something from von Mises�armed with that incredibly limited knowledge and a great deal hormonal rage I wrote a letter to the station and they in turn they gave me a 1-minute spot to voice my complaint�which I did.

Have no clue to what I said.

A few days afterward I thought about my experience and my conclusion was: what the fuck was I doing? I was just a frustrated artist, I had big dreams for my images, big romantic stuff�problem is that shit is difficult�and hell of lot more difficult than complaining in public about some whinny socialist. I was blaming that asshole for all the difficulty I had painting!!! So I committed to shutting the fuck up and putting my nose to grindstone...

You�ve got one life and today�s context...every fuck up is sending you that much further away from realizing your potential�that is called a sacrifice.

Michael

(Edited by Newberry on 3/13, 8:30pm)

Post 44

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 8:54pm

Joe Maurone,

I think the characters and situation of the Fountainhead have existed throughout our history, there is always a play going on between men who want to create and achieve their own purposes, men who use deception to convince others to accept other's purposes, men who accept purposes dictated to them by others, and men who financially profit from fulfilling others purposes but sacrifice their own purposes.

The story of Atlas Shrugged happened already in Russia, China, and one day maybe Cuba and North Korea will too. I would be surprised if the US made it all the way to pure socialism or communism and collapsed like Russia or China. How much freedom did people have economically in Atlas Shrugged? I think the US has steadily become worse since the 1920's. How hard is it now for a company to hire and fire workers? How hard is it for a company to sell what they create to only who they want to, and at what price they want to?

On taxes: I met a women today who told me her brother quit working because he didn't want to pay taxes. I'm becoming more valuable my company, I'm negotiating for a higher pay rate, but I'm not going to work as much. Wait-- I'm not going to pay taxes! Wow, that is liberating. Unfortunately they will still benefit from my work: my company will be more successful and we'll sell more products, giving the looters more to steal from others who haven't shrugged yet.

Even if the looters in the government reduces taxes, they can still do all sorts of things to steal from the producers. They can increase the inflation rate-- but then people won't want to use USD, but then if they charge for money made by "interest" (actually charging for their own inflation) then using a different currency won't help-- unless one does their trading in secret and does not report how much property they own. They can steal land from land owners after the value of the land goes up. They can steal any property after it's value goes up, or force the producer to use the property as they dictate. How much of these things do we see going on?

I think the future looks good as far as money and trading goes. Increasing computer technology will enable more free trade and increase people's ability to speak and trade anonymously and securely. People just have to learn that its not good for themselves to enable looters, and we'll learn that integrity and trustability are becoming the most important virtues. Information that is consistent with Reality is becoming more valuable than physical property, which means it will become much harder for the government to steal. The government is currently trying to steal information from Google.

My biggest concern is that the majority of people currently have accepted that: others have a claim on their life and property (altruism); that its bad to use force in any scenario-- even when they are being attacked (altruism & pacifism); and that they can't trust or have confidence in anything, that all words and ideas are meaningless, and that there is no purpose to anything (Post-Modernism).

I think Objectivism will prevail because it is the best philosophy for individuals to survive, and through the evolution of ideas, the ideas that enable people to live the most successfully tend to eventually be accepted by the majority. Judism saved us from chaotic Roman and Greek Gods. Christianity was Judism with a kinder God that gave us a chance to escape eternal damnation. Post-Modernism, Humanism, Environmentalism, etc saved us from the grips of the dogmatic religious leaders. Islam is kind of different, people slaughtered others to make it the dominant philosophy. Objectivism will save us from the knowledge destroyers, the property destroyers, the looters, and the leeches for whatever form they come in, it teaches us that we can increase our knowledge consistent with reality, enables us to create a consistent moral system that every innocent man can live on, and it gives us the purpose that is consistent with our nature: our own life.

I don't see a new philosophy coming after Objectivism-- the basics will remain, some dogmatism and minor changes in definitions and concepts may be improved, but has a self consistent and Reality consistent ever-widening base. Maybe Leonard Peikoff would prefer I didn't call this "Objectivism", I could instead call it "The current state of the evolving ideas based on Objectivism". I'd come up with a new name if he asked me to, but I'd like to use "Objectivism" for short, and by the context we can tell whether someone is talking about Ayn Rand's original ideas or current ideas based on her's.

I mean "Looters in the government" when I say "the government".

Michael Newberry, please note the difference between someone spreading socialist or communist ideas, and actually being a slave to socialists and communists. I'm not simply complaining about music. Everyone is constantly being stolen from, and I'm defending my life and the lives of innocent men.

Post 45

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:11pm

Joe, I'm not going to go down like Timothy McVeigh. I wrote how I will defend myself because that is how I think everyone should defend themselves. I'm not going to hold my ground until they kill me. I'm going to hold my ground until its impossible for me to continue holding ground and survive-- and I really don't want to get hurt or hurt any men that are doing what they think is their duty. It'll be more like what Gandi did-- except I'm not up for self mutilating hunger strikes.

I said "surrounded or in a corner". Aren't we all currently "surrounded or in a corner"? Its just that the surrounding circle is larger than eyesight, and that nobody ever really talks about it, we just act and think like we are free like the founding fathers were. We aren't. Now, as far as I know, the US is still one of the most free and safe places to live, so I still choose to live here, and I want to improve the US government.

Post 46

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:15pm

Dean - I am a bit worried about you. However, though I do feel your pain (often, I might add). I encourage you to do as much as you can "off the radar" as they say. Look at offshore banks and cash commerce, but try to avoid anything that is blantantly illegal and obvious. It is not that, that bad, and overall throughout my life despite the government I feel that I have had access to more and better things not fewer and fewer, so the trend is better not worse. I saw the Reagan years, the fall of the seemingly unstoppable Communists - all in very few years, really. In other words, don't give up now because Capitalism is winning.

Now that victory is closer than ever before, the enemy is getting more and more desperate, and it shows. Slowly but surely, the more connected the world gets, the looser the bonds will be - it is really the opposite of what many fear - the people who sew that fear want something from you, and it usually is not in your best interest to heed them.

Post 47

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:17pm

> Dean said: I'm going to stop paying federal income tax. The government will put me in jail...Its worth the risk to me...going to jail, being raped, beaten out of my wits, tortured and mutilated...I'd do it if afterwards I could be more free.

Oh, Jesus!!

Dean, this is probably the most suicidal, self-sacrificial idea I've seen on this list (and that's saying a lot). You won't be more free (assuming you don't get AIDS because the Bloods or the Crips make you their cellblock bitch). You will then have a criminal record (question number one on every employment application) and be unable to get a job. The heart of Objectivism is **selfishness** in case you missed it. Not self-sacrifice for "the cause". Your life. Your happiness. Your career. Your future. All destroyed. And you will accomplish nothing...you would not be the first 'tax protestor' who was imprisoned for claiming the government has no right to take his money. You will change exactly nothing. No one is going to wake up and say, "oh, golly, gee-wow, we can have laissez-faire tomorrow; all we have to do is defund the military and the people fighting the war on terrorism instantly."

Have you read up on any of this?

Ayn Rand was asked the question about defying the laws of the U.S. and letting yourself be punished. She answered that you should not throw yourself under the wheels of the tank. Please promise me you will read her essay "A Question of Scholarships" which deals with this sort of issue before you destroy your life: how to live in a society which violates your rights.

Have you read it?

The St. Francis of Assissi and burning yourself at the stake discussion groups are somewhere else on the web.

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 3/13, 9:25pm)

Post 48

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:22pm

Oh I also didn't see that this was a discussion about the Poll - funny how that happens :)

Anyway I have gotten people to listen to the audio version of Atlas Shrugged (I have it on CD), had someone read Anthem, had some folks listen to Anthem (unabridged), had someone read We the Living, and currently someone is reading Atlas. Despite my efforts and giving away some books, no one has read Fountainhead at my behest yet, my favorite!

Myself so far:
Atlas (read) + (cd - abridged) (also think I want to read 1x more)
Fountainhead (tape - abridged) + read (and I plan to read again also - I just find it so perfect)
Anthem (cd - unabridged)

I just can't bring myself to read We the Living, I can't stand knowing how it turns out.

The above excludes non-fiction. I can say I very much enjoyed the CDs also, especially because of the excellent readings.

Post 49

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:28pm

Philip Coates,

What kind of crimes do employers not want to hire their workers for? Killing is currently a crime. Not paying looters your income is currently a crime. Are all crimes the same? I do not want to work for a company that wouldn't hire me because I didn't pay taxes.

I'll be OK. Going to jail isn't the worst thing in the world: nirvana, pacifism, and dying is. So how about we start living? : )
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/13, 10:05pm)

Post 50

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:19pm

Hey Joe,

My comments on Stern and the graveyard for the irrelevant known as Sirius radio are as follows. Don�t get me wrong, I hope that Coward plows the field for others in the arena of free speech, but the reality is that he�s just not mentally equipped for the next level. Also the smut driven theme of Sirius actually enables that machine to lo-ball media leftovers and undesirables for any type of free for all.

Yes Stern will get the last laugh with his Black Power civil rights logo, but it�s not the type of chuckle I�m interested in. In one of my previous kites (Rand & �Black Hate radio� Post #59) I referenced my way of doing business which was inspired by �The Property Status of Airwaves�. I own the rights to my show, which means that each market pays me a fee. Most people in my field are doing barter deals with no inventory profit.

I�m a thought provoker who takes his lashings with no public reply. In fact ROR has gotten more out of me than any other site in the last five years. In closing, I�ve never taken a broadcasting course, nor do I seek the camera eye. I�m just the guy who�s always created a system with in the system. Also in regards to Coward, having a platform with nothing of merit to say, only feeds the looters as Dean was trying to convey.

S.

P.S. THANK YOU for your show of support for post #17

(Edited by Star The Hater
on 3/13, 10:26pm)

(Edited by Star The Hater
on 3/13, 10:28pm)

Post 51

Monday, March 13, 2006 - 11:07pm

Star: "Also the smut driven theme of Sirius actually enables that machine to lo-ball media leftovers and undesirables for any type of free for all."

BTW, "Coward," pretty funny. ahem...anyway, the above is the catch 22 for us, isn't it? We want the platform to spread something of value, but in the process of promoting free speech, we have to allow it for it's worst practitioners as well, don't we? And in the age of Jerry Springers, Larry Flints and Howard Sterns, they have really ran with that. Not the best spokesman.

I do agree with your comment that Stern's not mentally equipped for the next level. As for your comments on Sirius...well, until we get rid of the FCC altogether and open up the airwave as private property, satellite Radio and the internet is our "Galt's Gulch," isn't it?

Post 52

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:18am

John;

How right you are Sir.

S.

Post 53

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:47am

Hmmm... for now I have decided to go with plan B: pay the taxes.

Maybe my plan would have worked if everyone was me. Given other's goals and abilities, it's their advantage to see to it that I net loose.

Right now I am seriously questioning Ayn Rand's proposition that "There is a harmony of interest between all rationally selfish men." There are a limited number of resources, and a man can take good risks once in a while, stealing from others to gain power and resources. Now you may say that is not an Objectivists behaviour, but that very well may be for a person who has almost nothing and could gain an incredible amount of resources by doing so. And what if the looting is done to something that nobody cares about? To deny that such situations exist is to deny Reality. It is a dog help dog, and dog eat dog, and man help dog, and dog help man, and man eat dog, and dog eat man world, and man help man, and man eat man world.

Maybe Rand's assumption was that every man is the same? Then it would work for pretty much everywhere except the lifeboat. But each man is incredibly different. So I think she made a mistake there. Or, well, she had this definition of "man", and it worked for that definition, but that "man" doesn't actually exist.

People like to evade the fact that they do loot from other men and other organisms. Collectivism enables groups of individuals to band together and initiate force against other groups of individuals. So there are advantages to collectivism too.

I guess you guys can lynch me now for this streak of emotion and the mistakes I've made. I sure am smart though, aren't I? I'm just... currently a little too outspoken. And not as wise as I wish I was.
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/14, 3:04am)

Post 54

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 5:38am

Dean-

It must be discouraging to see naysayers trying to hold you back in the pot of boiling water, or especially even blaming you for trying to escape. Essentially though you've just run into the key problem of fighting organized theft - for an individual to resist, the expected loss is much greater than potential gain, sadly making it self-sacrificial. If you figure out a way around that to establish a critical mass of resisters, then you truly are a genius.

Post 55

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 6:20am

Hey Aaron,

You�ve just told the tale of Star�s Negro quagmire.

S.

Post 56

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 6:49am

Aaron wrote: "It must be discouraging to see naysayers trying to hold you back in the pot of boiling water, or especially even blaming you for trying to escape."

You have nailed it. Star says "quagmire", and this is the *perfect* word for that condition.

However, the craving for crack is stronger than that which denies satisfaction. A crack maniac will find a way to get high. Tell me you used to be a crack addict and I know that at some point in your journey you would have gone down on *anyone* for a 20 dollar bill. That is the mark of a real craving.

That is the *kind* of craving (not for crack but for *life*) that applied to the mind, and the heart, must be encouraged, and fired up. How far are you willing to walk through the desert to get to the river?

This is what I ask myself: How much do you want it? How angry are you? Enough to stop talking about it, whining about it? It won't be given to you. You have to develop a craving, and you have to act. You have to reach out and get it. Dont wait to be taught, teach yourselves dammit! Dont wait to be given a chance, an offer, a gift or a handout. Arm yourselves with the truth, and the thirst for knowledge, and the skills, and go out and get it. And for Gods sake dont say you dont know how. The knowledge and the *models* for success are out there. Learn it, and earn it.

On a related matter. I used to listen to coward stern (the name being appropriate for one who rats out a fellow broadcaster to the FCC while simultaneously whining about the treatment he is receiving), for the base entertainment value. I listen to the Star & Bucwild Journey because amidst the entertainment is intellectual FIRE.

I have had my coffee today, forgive me the rant :)

Post 57

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 7:56am

Dean,

There was a reason people were shrugging in Atlas Shrugged. They found that the only way to see change was to remove themselves from the system and let it collapse. Without going down that dark alley, the best direction seems to be activism. Changing the society will take time and effort. You will be sorely dissapointed if your plans involve everyone suddenly waking up to enlightenment and reason. That is why I'm an activist, and why I pay my taxes. I recognize the evil of the system, but am working to change it. Ayn Rand payed taxes and worked to change things too. Keep up your spirit and set your goals!

Ethan

Post 58

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 9:21am

> I guess you guys can lynch me now for this streak of emotion and the mistakes I've made...I'm just... currently a little too outspoken. [Dean]

Nothing wrong with being outspoken. Or making mistakes. All part of the learning process.

Understanding Oism is like peeling an onion and finding the layers underneath (as Ed Locke used to say). Keep plugging! (Right now it sounds like you're dealing with the whole what are individualism and collectivism and where are the boundary lines between them set of issues.)

Post 59

Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 10:05am