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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 3:01amSanction this postReply
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It's impossible to choose any of the alternatives as THE greatest achievement. How does one pit music against painting? -- or fiction against architecture? It's like asking whether apples or cookies are the most beautiful.

Barbara

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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 3:27amSanction this postReply
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I agree. The choice is impossible. I think the idea of the poll in the mind of the person who conceived it - no, it wasn't me! - was to dare the cheerleaders for headbanging caterwauling to nominate Metallica as the acme of western civilisation, which, clearly, would be absurd, since those revolting cacophonists are actually closer to being the *nadir* of western civilisation. In the case of Atlas Shrugged, the Shakespeare, the Rach 3, the Wagner, the Michelangelo, the Frank Lloyd Wright, etc., the accolade of "acme" could be defended plausibly, though never definitively.

Anyway, I voted for the Rach. No disrespect at all to the alternatives. Au contraire. It's just that the Rach spins my wheels most of all.

Actually, here's what gets my *ultimate* vote - Mario Lanza's rendering of Puccini's Che Gelida Manina from La Boheme.

Linz

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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 3:59amSanction this postReply
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"I think the idea of the poll in the mind of the person who conceived it ... was to dare the cheerleaders for headbanging caterwauling to nominate Metallica as the acme of western civilisation..."
Who would possibly have such a motive? :-)


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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 5:39amSanction this postReply
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I voted Metallica. Not because I genuinely believe Metallica's Black Album (which I haven't even heard) is the greatest achievement in western art, but in protest at the increasingly tiresome attitudes of some on this forum who refuse to recognise that not all contemporary rock/metal is mindless headbanging caterwauling (although a lot of it certainly is).

As to my true opinion on the question, if pressed my answer would likely be similar to Linz, though I agree with Barbara's comments above.

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 10/04, 5:43am)


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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 8:20amSanction this postReply
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Man, Linz, talk about anal retentive. Get off the pot already!

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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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Although Linz, you are right about one thing. It would not be the Metallica BLACK ALBUM, were it to be a rock band. It would have to be Pink Floyd's DARK SIDE OF THE MOON. So there. :P

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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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I voted Metallica for the same reason Matthew did.

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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Hey Jake, Joe, Matthew,

 

I am a little confused. Perhaps you can clear up your stance a bit for me.

 

Do you think that rock bands or popular music are high art forms?

 

Do you think there is such a thing as high art forms?

 

Do you think that contemporary rock is an advancement on Beethoven? If so in what way? Or that it is not appropriate to compare the two types of music?

 

Are you interested in cultural activism?

 

Would you say that in the rock that you like that it represents through style and lyrics the ultimate ideal; a profound statement about the meaning of life and where you would like your future to be?

 

Do you feel that all art is of equal value? Do you think art evaluation is solely subjective?

 

I assume you all like Rand's work. Can you think of rock that matches the depth, scope, and integration that is in Atlas Shrugged? If so, could you state why?

 

Michael









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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
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And the winner is David for being both an absolute achievement for any period and a contextual achievement for the greatest advance by a single artist. Accepting the award posthumously for Michelangelo is Rick:

Although Mick can’t be here tonight, I’ll channel his acceptance speech. “Esteemed members of SOLO, and all members of the second Renaisance, it is with great pleasure that I accept this award but with some sadness. Reports from recent arrivals tell of alarming trends. We recently kicked one imposter to Hades, named something-Pollock (aka Jack the Dripper), who was sent with overwhelming references. What’s happening down there? You’d think the Pope converted to Islam and banned all visual representations. Even Byzantine portraits of Theodora beat that crap. Jesuz! In any case, keep up the good fight there in SOLOland.”



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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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Hi Michael,

Do you think that rock bands or popular music are high art forms?

I think that if there is to be successful cultural change, Objectivism as well as what might be termed "high art values",  must penetrate pop culture. 

Do you think there is such a thing as high art forms?

Yes but my understanding is that Rand rejected a strict high culture/pop culture dichotomy, so intellectual "high art" ought to entertain, and entertaining "pop art" ought to be intellectual.

 

Do you think that contemporary rock is an advancement on Beethoven? If so in what way? Or that it is not appropriate to compare the two types of music?

I consider SOME of the progressive rock and progressive metal music that I've heard to be as beautiful and enriching as a Beethoven symphony.

 Are you interested in cultural activism?

Yes! That's why I'm a SOLOist, and that's precisely why I get so pissed off the certain people here make big noises about a cultural renaissance and then dismiss Objectivist, individualist and other intellectual trends in progressive rock and metal as "headbanging caterwauling". Can you guys really not see that we're gaining ground in these genres?

 

Would you say that in the rock that you like that it represents through style and lyrics the ultimate ideal; a profound statement about the meaning of life and where you would like your future to be?

The specific musicians and groups I've spoken up for do.

 

Do you feel that all art is of equal value? Do you think art evaluation is solely subjective?

No to both.

 

I assume you all like Rand's work. Can you think of rock that matches the depth, scope, and integration that is in Atlas Shrugged? If so, could you state why?

I'm not sure that any other work of art could match Rand. Some of he libertarian leaning group Rush's work comes close (their 2112 was based on Rand's Anthem and a number of their other songs have strong Objectivist influences), as does some of Symphony X's V: The New Mythology Suite - I say some because I acquired itat the weekend and haven't heard all of yet. Btw, Symphony X have integrated sections of classical music into some of their work, and cite classical composers amongst their influences along with other prog musicians.

 

The renaissance SOLO seeks is happening -- condemned by some of SOLO's leading figures!!!

 

MH 



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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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It is irrelevant whether or not a classic is better than something today, today's work speaks to today's people about today's situations. (And no, I am not speaking as a pragmaticist...) I also don't understand how anyone on this forum can so dogmatically attack art he doesn't agree with, after the account Barbara Brandon gives of Rand's belittling of those who read Thomas Wolfe (or was it Thomas Mann?) Much of the music has an emotional resonance for so many, and contrary to Rand, that is NOT sufficient grounds to dismiss it.

And I don't believe that every story has to have a happy ending. Rand couldn't end WE THE LIVING with a happy ending, and rightfully so. But, she did leave it with a glimpse of "something better."
I bring this up because of the differences between novels and songs. It is assumed that a novel is fictional, and may or may not reflect the whole of the author's philosophy, and may or may not be autobiographical. I think that the same can be said for a catalogue of songs. But because of the time span involved in writing those songs, which can be several years, and the current view of songwriters as superstars (at least the person singing the song) we tend to view songs as autobiographical non fiction. So it is easy to extract one song from a person's canon and reify that one song out of context. So consider this:

Picture a boy who, at age 4, sees his father lying on the floor with a gun in his cold hands. Imagine a boy struggling to at age 5 watching his stepfather throwing his mother against a wall, and that same boy at age 8 struggling to pull a full grown man off his mother before she is strangled to death while his sister is paralyzed with fear. Picture that same boy being abused by the same mother that he swore to protect, as she beats him, and tells him that he will fall on his face if he tries to follow his dreams, as she smokes and snorts away her own. Told to give up his dreams because the world is a sick place, wings clipped before he could even fly. Being told that to trust no one. Picture that same boy abandoned at age 17, because the mother disappeared in Tennessee with some cokehead, leaving him to take care of his brother and sister with no job and no way to pay the bills. Imagine that boy broken because he can't do it.
Then you tell that boy that life is beautiful, that the lyrics he listens to are mindless caterwauling, as my mother did (and as Linz does now).

The Unforgiven
Metallica

New blood joins this earth
and quickly he's subdued
through constant pain disgrace
the young boy learns their rules

with time the child draws in
this whipping boy done wrong
deprived of all his thoughts
the young man struggles on and on he's known
a vow unto his own
that never from this day
his will they'll take away

what I' ve felt
what I' ve known
never shined trough in what I' ve shown
never be
never see
won't see what might have been

what I' ve felt
what I' ve known
never shined through in what I' ve shown
never free
never me
so I dub thee unforgiven

they dedicate their lives
to running all of his
he tries to please them all
this bitter man he is
throughout his life the same
he's battled constantly
this fight he cannot win
a tired man they see no longer cares
the old man then prepares
to die regretfully
that old man here is me

Because my grandmother stepped in, I survived. For that I thank her. But I also know that my grandmother helped to create the very situation, and my mother grew up in the same abusive household. I know my father did also. The difference is, one committed suicide fast, and the other one adopted the best she could, which was not good enough. Now, as an adult, I could follow in the same footsteps. Everyday is a struggle, every memory a reminder. But I fight for something better.

Metallica
"Bleeding Me"



I'm diggin' my way
I'm diggin' my way to somethin'
I'm diggin' my way to somethin' better

I'm pushin' to stay
I'm pushin' to stay with something
I'm pushin' to stay with something better

I'm sowing the seeds
I'm sowing the seeds I've taken
I'm sowing the seeds I take for granted

This thorn in my side
This thorn in my side is from the tree
This thorn in my side is from the tree I've planted
It tears me and I bleed
And I bleed

Caught under wheels roll
I take the leech
I'm bleeding me
Can't stop to save my soul
I take the leash that's leading me
I'm bleeding me
I can't take it
Caught under wheels roll
Oh, the bleeding of me
Of me
The bleeding of me

Caught under wheels roll
I take the leech
I'm bleeding me
Can't stop to save my soul
I take the leash that's leading me
I'm bleeding me
I can't take it
Caught under wheels roll
Oh, the bleeding of me
Oh, the bleeding of me

I am the beast that bleeds the feast
I am the blood
I am release
Come make me pure
Bleed me a cure
I'm caught, I'm caught, I'm caught under

Caught under wheels roll
I take that leech
I'm bleeding me
Can't stop to save my soul
I take the leash that's leading me
I'm bleeding me
I can't take it
I can't take it
I can't take it
Oh, the bleeding of me

I'm diggin' my way
I'm diggin' my way to somethin'
I'm diggin' my way to something better

I'm pushin' to stay
I'm pushin' to stay with somethin'
I'm pushin' to stay with something better
With something better


What I hear in these lyrics is the constant struggle that I speak of, the reminder that we choose our own hell, and stay on our own accord. I could embrace the anger, I could live out my rage and hate. Or I could find an alternative. And I have, as I have learned to forgive my parents, learn to deal with the world, and learn to find for myself what it is to be alive. And my musical influences have helped. In addition to Metallica, I have found the sonic possibilities of Pink Floyd, the grandeur of Yes, the fun of Duran Duran, the beauty of classical music, the swing of jazz, the spiciness of salsa, etc. But I could not appreciate them without dealing with the anger and evil in the world, I feel it would be escapism. Metallica's lyrics helped me, took off my rose colored glasses so that I could see the world in three dimensions, with its light and its shadows. And I learned that light casts the shadows. And that you cannot cast such lyrics as Metallica's to "tiddlywink" music.


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Post 11

Monday, October 4, 2004 - 11:09amSanction this postReply
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Michael Newberry asks:



"Do you think that rock bands or popular music are high art forms?...Do you think there are such things as high art?"

I don't approach it that way, personally. I think to call something high or low would require more criteria, and depends too much on subjective values. High? Low? By what standard? High off the ground? Morally high? Spiritually high? Technically high? etc. I do think it's a loaded religious question. For example, what some churches call high art is very solemn and angelic, no motion or passion, though. That same church could classify native music as low art, because of its sensual, earthy rhythms, which are sexual also. I think the term would be "base." Here I am reminded of the Stoddard Temple, which was close to the ground instead of aspiring to heaven through denounciation. But would any Objectivist call the Stoddard Temple "low art"?

"Do you think that contemporary rock is an advancement on Beethoven? If so in what way? Or that it is not appropriate to compare the two types of music?"

Inappropriate. Rock and Roll was born of country and blues, considered "low art." There was no intention of rock and roll to be anything more than fun dance music, or rebellious music. And why would rock and rollers aspire to advance Beethoven if they are rebelling against it? Why would black people use the blues to aspire to the music of their oppressors? Blues was born out of the spirituals of the slaves, and the "blue note" was not really known to Europeans. Also, country was considered music of hillbillies and hicks. Not the breeding grounds for feudal court music.
It is interesting to note that on this topic, it was the British who introduced classical idioms into rock music, which we now call progressive rock. And it was the Americans who rebelled by starting punk rock. The British prog bands focused more on the lyrical content, which was almost Wagnerian, and contained much social and religious commentary. The American fans, for the most part, responded to the technical prowess of the musicians as opposed to the message of the work. You can see that in the American Neo-prog metal bands like Dream Theater.

Bob Dylan was one of the pioneers of the socially conscious rock song, which dropped the ROCK AND ROLL moniker by this time. You had pop, and serious rock. So the Americans who who were socially conscious and into rock had their peak in 69 with the failure of the sixties, and in many ways, the antipathy of the American audience towards the"higher" aspirations of the British prog audiences were born of the desire to forget Vietnam and the failed revolution. We see the American audience instead drift toward disco and new wave. The British, on the other hand, in rebellion against the class system in England, rejected the prog artists "higher" British aspirations because they were rejecting their heritage. Even though the Brit Prog rockers were also socially conscious, their was was through literary metaphor which relied on British fairy tales and myths. The British punks wanted something more direct and active, took the raw attitude of the American punk scene, and added a socially conscious anger.


"Are you interested in cultural activism?"
Way back in my high school days (88-92). But now my feelings mirror Pete Townsend's, when he writes of the failed sixties revolution:

"Meet the new boss,
same as the old boss."



"Would you say that in the rock that you like that it represents through style and lyrics the ultimate ideal; a profound statement about the meaning of life and where you would like your future to be?"

No, because I no longer seek ultimate, monolithic ideals. There is no meaning of life, there are meanings of life.
I think Dylan said it best:" Don't follow leaders."
(And we reply, "yes...we.must.not.follow.leaders.")



Do you feel that all art is of equal value? Do you think art evaluation is solely subjective?

Again, value to who? By what criteria? By what standard?
You can judge it technically...but I think you can judge it also by the intent of the work or the artist. Did the artist achieve his goal? Did the art convey it effectively?
Do I like it?
I always thought it strange that Rand, in the ROMANTIC MANIFESTO, wrote that it was ok to say, "It's a good work of art, but I don't like it," without exploring the other side, "It's a bad work of art, but I like it."

Even if one could prove the objective superiority of a work of art to another, why would an Objectivist want to? Isn't one supposed to judge for himself? Would Roark care? Why the need for validation from others?

I think it is largely selective. In the words of Frank Zappa: "F@ck you, I like it!"


"I assume you all like Rand's work. Can you think of rock that matches the depth, scope, and integration that is in Atlas Shrugged? If so, could you state why?"

I will preface this with the fact that I have personally grown away from Objectivism, and I am constantly rethinking much of what I believed. So this question does not really resonate much with me anymore.
Having said that, I can think of some, though they stretched the boundaries of what is considered rock (see above). And they don't have Randian themes, but they do attempt to integrate their ideas with music, through music. Yes's TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS is an 80 minute piece that is based on the book THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI. Lyrically, you cannot convey everything in 80 minutes, so much of it relies on the music, just as actors rely on facial expressions and nuance. The music is sprawling and varied. They attempt the same WAR AND PEACE on RELAYER.
Rush's HEMISPHERES tackles the mind-heart dichotomy in a 20 minute epic. Pink Floyd effectively tackle grand themes on DARK SIDE OF THE MOON. One point to consider is that many artists play out their themes over a period of albums, so you need to look past individual songs to the whole catalogue.




(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/04, 11:11am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 10/04, 7:19pm)


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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 7:50amSanction this postReply
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I voted "other" on your 'greatest Western artist' poll; while agreeing completely with Ms. Branden's comments as to the impossibility of finding a single height, I myself would have favored Goethe's _Faust_or Beethoven's 9th Symphony... though Wagner would come close.

But I also think that modern rock music deserves more respect... high culture types once treated opera as the pinnacle of the arts, because of its integration of the decorative, performing, and liberal arts; I observe the same applies to contemporary music videos.  I'm not a Metallica fan myself particularly, but I challenge anyone to say why Elton John's "Funeral for a Friend" does not rank with the minor pieces of the great composers.  Why Euripides, but not _Evita_?  At the risk of reverse snobbishness, I think the electric guitar requires an educated ear just as the piano, and that it is a failure of sensibility when one is unable to enjoy a contemporary art form, not proof of aesthetic virtue.

But I think ultimately Objectivism proper has good reasons for disliking modern rock music; Rand (and Nietzsche, and Allan Bloom, and Rousas Rushdoony) is right, modern rock music as an artistic school is inseparable from a valuation of emotional states as such.  Classical music is music as a formal argument, with the progression of notes in correspondence to an abstraction of the progression of human conscious thought; this is what the Medievals meant by the "music of the spheres", observing the same patterns in celestial bodies (anticipating Newtonian theory of motion... a subject also most misunderstood).  Rock music contains an element irreducible to sensual, and usually sexual, rhytms.  Ironically, Romantic music prefigured this shift in emphasis; anti-P.C.ists in _Heterodoxy_ have laughed at the feminist theorist Susan McClary who called the Khoral Symphony an explosion of male sexual agression ("...the carefully prepared cadence is frustrated, damming up energy which finally explodes in the throttling, murderous rage of a rapist incapable of attaining release.") , and I do think she was wrong.  But her problem is in her sexist, her sexphobia, her dualistic, love vs. strife theory of value, not in her musical ear:

Freude, schoener Goetterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische dein Heiligtum.
Deine Zauber binden wieder,
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brueder,
Wo dein sanfter Fluegel weilt.


translated:

Joy, o wondrous spark divine,
Daughter of Elysium,
Drunk with fire now we enter,
Heavenly one, your holy shrine.
Your magic powers join again
What fashion strictly did divide;
Brotherhood unites all men
Where your gentle wing's spread wide.


The proper term is heiros gamos.  But then Rand disapproved of Beethoven.  I think she may have known well what she was talking about.  A genius' embarrasing statements are seldom accidents.

Rock music is compatible with romanticism and romantic symbolism, and possibly a truly dialectical romantic realism, but it can't be squared with Rand's Thomistic endorsement of a great-chain-of-bring relation between the rational and emotional faculties.  Here must simply follow Camille Paglia and disagree with Rand. 

Objectivism, which as a Pagan Cynic I have come to regard as an admirably Socratic but regrettably "right wing" classical philosophy, is correct to intuit a danger in rock music, because rock music relies on at least an element of the valuation on emotion qua emotion.  Ironically, Objectivism's distrust of classical music is precisely prefounded by Plato's lengthy treatment of music theory in the _Republic_, which culminates of the explusion of all poets (except for a few parade-band sell-outs) from the ideal society.  Rand's treatment of Woodstock is Plato, whole cloth.  Unfortunately, this results in elements of Objectivism that cut all the way down to is defintion of (hu?)man and theprimacy of existence.  I have come to conclude, with regrets, that reform is impossible within the system.

Personally, I am an admirer of Shelley, or Geothe, of Beethoven, of Ibsen, Dali, the Beatles, Rush, and the Indigo Girls.  I see no contradictions between these values and do not find my experience of one diluted by the experience of the other.  Objectivism teaches that the path to happiness lies in the pursuit of excellence qua excellence, whereas I have concluded that excellences are simply the highest expressions-in degree- of an educated craft and art of happiness, and essentially plural; I reject Aristotleian teleology amd believe Objectivism's position is simply the moderate realism of philosophical anthropology, rightly intended but essentially Platonic, and an obstacle to human happiness.  This, along with some personal commitments, is why I'm not an Objectivist- the issue with rock music is the same as that of my own Life (or homosexuality, or drug use, or enjoying Thomas Wolfe, friendships with the heathen, or narrative attachments)- and with due apologies to admirable people, as a transgender courtesan, I tire of weaving my own chains.

Meanwhile, I can feel passion to both Wagner and Tori Amos.  Irrational passion?  Perhaps.  Nor all your virtues wash out a word of it.

Stars,
in your mutitude,
filling the darkness,
in order and light,
you are the sentinels,
silent and sure,
keeping watch in the night.
Keeping watch in the night.
You hold your place in the sky,
you know your course and your aim,
and as the seasons return and return...
you are always the same.
 
And if you fall, as Lucifer fell,
you fall, in flame!
 
And so it has been
and so it is written
on the doorway to Paradise
that those who falter and those who fall,
must pay the Price.

 - les Miserables musical
   Javert

"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to a dancing star!
I tell you, you still have chaos in yourselves!"

 - Friedrich Neitzsche
   Zarathustra

Choose.
 
Jeanine Ring  {))(*)((}


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Post 13

Monday, October 4, 2004 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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The music horse is both very dead and very beaten. Occasionally I like a nice, delicious Fillet Mignon. They can be quite yummy. I am also happy to enjoy a disgusting, sloppy, artery clogging Big Mac. (Extra cheese) I don't presume to extoll the virtues of the five dollar drive through quickie over the delicate sweetness of a fine meal, but hell, I don't have to, I'm the only one eating either of them. I extend that view to music, as well.

Post 14

Monday, October 4, 2004 - 1:07pmSanction this postReply
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Joe: "The British prog bands focused more on the lyrical content, which was almost Wagnerian..."

PC: Um, no it wasn't. It was generally only high-school maunderings; in fact they focussed more on the music. But if you think it's truly inappropriate to compare musics, why then try and claim Wagner 's stature for prog rock's schoolboy twiddlings? Are you then conceding Wagner's greater stature? :-)


Michael asked "I assume you all like Rand's work. Can you think of rock that matches the depth, scope, and integration that is in Atlas Shrugged? If so, could you state why?"

Joe replied: "I will preface this with the fact that I have personally grown away from Objectivism, and I am constantly rethinking much of what I believed. So this question does not really resonate much with me anymore."

PC: So is this a yes or no then? Whether or not it 'resonates' with you or not is surely irrelevant - there either is rock music that matches the depth, scope and integration of Atlas ... or there isn't.  I think we both know the answer is the latter.

Let me say there's nothing that makes an electric guitar inherently any less rational than a violin ... except what is done with it. There's nothing to stop any rock musician writing and performing with the depth, scope and integration of Atlas etc. ... it's just that they don't.

So listen all you will to whatever music you wish - to rock, to jazz, to opera (hell, I listen to all of these myself) - but don't delude yourself that something is what it isn't; that for example "[the greatest achievement in Western Art] would have to be Pink Floyd's DARK SIDE OF THE MOON" for example. We all know that's not the case, now don't we.

A is A; rock music is what it is - enjoy it for what it is by all means (as I do), but don't claim for it a virtue it doesn't possess, or a stature it doesn't have. It's only yourself you're trying to fool; and by fooling yourself in this manner you miss out on a whole world of artistic scope and integration that really does have real depth. :-)


Post 15

Monday, October 4, 2004 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Mathew: "The renaissance SOLO seeks is happening -- condemned by some of SOLO's leading figures!!!"

Oh come now, Mathew. Sure, you can find pleasing aspects in rock - that's always been possible - and you may even make a case that the seeds of a renaissance may eventually be found in such a place, but to claim that it is happening based on the examples you cite is ... well, wishful thinking, perhaps?



Post 16

Monday, October 4, 2004 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
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Rick: "And the winner is David for being both an absolute achievement for any period and a contextual achievement for the greatest advance by a single artist."

See, you can judge art works across genres using criteria such as this. I think the chief difficulty in doing so is that we don't necessarily grasp the advance made in each great artistic achievement.

Having said that then, I voted Fallingwater since it represents an artistic achievement that represents perhaps for the first time an integrated concrete expression of the idea of achieving human joy on this earth. Frank was just ahead, but the other entrants in the first seven were all breathing down his neck. :-)


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Monday, October 4, 2004 - 1:44pmSanction this postReply
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Peter,

Oh come now, Mathew. Sure, you can find pleasing aspects in rock - that's always been possible - and you may even make a case that the seeds of a renaissance may eventually be found in such a place, but to claim that it is happening based on the examples you cite is ... well, wishful thinking, perhaps?
It would perhaps have been more accurate if I'd said that the renaissance is "beginning", rather than "happening". I stand by everything else I said in my previous post.

MH 


Post 18

Monday, October 4, 2004 - 2:18pmSanction this postReply
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If an objective evaluation is to be made on the value of a piece of art one should start with the artist and examine his/her values. In other words,  'the values of the artist are revealed in the art', not 'the art reveals the values of the artist'. It is impossible for an artist (unless he's being satirical for some reason) to portray something that is contrary to his deeply held beliefs. But to say first that something is objectively ugly may be an error in translating the motives and intention of an objectively-pure artist. If one understood the artist perfectly one might re-evaluate such an opinion.

Is the Sistine Chapel by Michaelangelo beautiful to Objectivists? I'll leave it as an exercise of the reader to judge it.

Can one separate the art from the artist? I think not.

Sam



Post 19

Monday, October 4, 2004 - 2:19pmSanction this postReply
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Mathew,

"I stand by everything else I said in my previous post," you said. Do you really want to stand by your claim that the music of Rush comes "close to" the depth, scope, and integration that is in Atlas Shrugged? Really? How far would you defend that claim? I don't even think the members of Rush would want to defend it. :-)

If you agree that their music doesn't, then that doesn't mean you can't listen to it and enjoy it (although 2112 is hardly even their strongest stuff, is it? Still a bit too Zep really), it just means you're identifying what is, and can then enjoy it for what it is.

And I have to ask you, why cite 'classical influences' on rock musicians if you say that rock is superior to classical? Trying to claim some stature for the music thereby? Wouldn't it be better just to argue (as I would) that rock and blues is what it is and that the better rock or blues musicians understand and enjoy that. They don't pretend they're simply classicists with a plectrum, or any thing other than what they are.


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