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Post 40

Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 11:01pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

Why is Kate's post 8 not sufficient?

Jordan

For the same reason why I sanctioned this post.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/17, 11:03pm)


Post 41

Monday, January 18, 2010 - 2:52amSanction this postReply
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Kate, some of the more beneficial clarifications I got from Peikoff's book involved his sections on burdens of proof and arbitrary assertions, the clarity of which became a major time saver in all future dialogues with self and others. To understand those principles fully requires the prior sections on the basic axioms of reality, the validity of the senses and volition, etc. It really is a tour de force of Objectivism though in a style different from that of Ayn Rand. I highly recommend it for someone as well read on her nonfiction as you are. It is also available in audio book format if you prefer that.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 1/18, 2:55am)


Post 42

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

What if someone here were to note that at one point in the 1960s Ayn Rand advised the Collective not to read Kant because it might corrupt their subconscious premises? Does this also constitute a smear because there is no cite included?
(Edited by Robert Keele on 1/23, 4:50pm)


Post 43

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 6:02pmSanction this postReply
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We get it, you don't like Rand. You like Kant. Is there any other purpose for your participation here Robert?

Post 44

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 6:10pmSanction this postReply
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I'm doing a study on paranoia.

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Post 45

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
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In case it hasn't already been made clear, the unsupported allegation which Robert has chosen to repeat is a dishonest one. Unspecified and unsubstantiated charges are always wrong. They are epistemologically wrong because they are arbitrary. The questioner wants his unsupported words to be treated the same as statements for which actual evidence or other valid support has been provided. That amounts to the altruistic demand that the listener do the speaker's work for him.

Such unsupported accusations are also publicly immoral. Unspecified charges and unsupported accusations amount to smears, smears which, since they are unspecific, the accused cannot answer or justly be expected to answer without cause. In written form, such as this internet forum, they stand as a permanent calumny. They should be erased from civil discourse. And beside being improper insults in the context of etiquette, such accusations can, depending on context, amount to libel, slander, and criminal defamation as well as contempt of court.

Observe the motivation of the person above. Is it intellectually honest? When challenged we see that what was posed as an "intellectual" question was intended as an attack both on the subject of the question and the people to whom the question was addressed as well as even you, the reader.

Unspecified charges and unsupported accusations are immoral smears at best. In the end they are the substance of show trials and lynchings.

They have no place within an Objectivist community.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/23, 9:24pm)


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Post 46

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, please confine yourself to the Dissent forum.

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Post 47

Saturday, January 23, 2010 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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I've restricted him to the Dissent Forum.

Post 48

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 6:04amSanction this postReply
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In the interests of providing authorship for a claim that Rand forbade certain books:

one widely copied article on that matter appears, with its author's name here.

Is that claim factually correct, or factually incorrect?

Post 49

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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In the interests of providing authorship for a claim that Rand forbade certain books:

one widely copied article on that matter appears, with its author's name here.

Is that claim factually correct, or factually incorrect?
I don't know.  However, something I find suspicious about the article is how easily Rothbard changes from "not giving one's sanction" to "forbidding reading particular books."


Post 50

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 7:06amSanction this postReply
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Merlin, why do you find it "suspicious" that the article's author first mentioned a theory (of "not giving your sanction to the Enemy") and then stated that certain people holding that theory carried out a certain action (shunning certain books) on the basis of the theory they held?

I don't see how to regard it as "suspicious" that a theory may have (or that someone may report a theory as having) concrete results in the form of acts performed by the people holding that theory.
(Edited by Kate Gladstone on 1/24, 7:08am)


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Post 51

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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Is it suspicious to wonder if Kate asks questions about Rand or Objectivism that are negatively framed? Should we wonder if this is a strange personality quirk rather than some form of passive-aggressive behavior - a kind of hidden attack disguised as an innocent question? How could we determine if Kate is able to grasp complex philosophical questions, yet not grasp the defamatory nature of her question asking? Should we wonder if there are people who either secretly feel gleeful about that kind of questioning, or are just blindly drawn in that direction? What kind of reward might there be in the rush of helpful people paying attention to her while forced into a defensive position intellectually on core values?

How can some one understand epistemological or metaphysical or ethical concepts, but be clueless as to what might be appropriate for dissent, and what might not?

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Post 52

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 8:54amSanction this postReply
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Kate, here is the entire article by Rothbard that was excerpted. What is its tone? It was  written after Rothbard had a personal falling out with Rand, so some animosity with some biased interpretation of events and vindictively chosen words should come as no surprise.

The paragraph before the one I referenced in post 49 says: 
the Rand cult went further to disseminate what was virtually an Index of Permitted Books.
Note the word "virtually." Rothbard uses "permitted", but would "recommended" have fit better? Is this an innuendo that any book not on the list is therefore "not permitted"?

Onto "giving moral sanction" and book reading, why does simply reading a book by somebody considered an enemy amount to a "moral sanction", especially if the book is borrowed from a library?

Why did Rothbard use "forbidden" rather than, say, "not advised" or "read with caution"?  Did what Rothbard see in Rand's behavior toward the Brandens post-split get extrapolated to Rand's behavior pre-split to authors of books with whom she had no personal relations?


Post 53

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 10:25amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

Go with personality quirk on this one. Kate does have a habit of forming provocative questions or claims of this sort. It doesn't seem terribly well thought out on her part, but her follow-ups suggest no malice or mischief.

Of course, if Kate posts something like this again...

Jordan

Post 54

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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I'm just wondering if the negativity is a symptom of Asperger's syndrome, which Kate has.

I don't think she's deliberately trying to be an outcast, or make enemies.


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Post 55

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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If she can understand philosophical concepts, then she can understand opening threads in "Dissent" and she seems to be able to string words together into comprehensible sentences, so it shouldn't be a great burden to keep them from being smears. Certain minimal standards are reasonable.

Post 56

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 1:00pmSanction this postReply
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Can we please stop speculating about Kate? And in the third person no less?

If there is an unaddressed question or a complaint, please be specific and direct.

She has shown enough good faith to be treated with at least minimal respect.


(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/24, 1:01pm)


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Post 57

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 1:48pmSanction this postReply
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Can we stop speculating about Rand, and in the third person no less? No?

Post 58

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 1:54pmSanction this postReply
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Post 59

Sunday, January 24, 2010 - 5:57pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

I did address Kate directly and specifically - see post #15. And I had done so before this on another thread.

You will also see that she has been addressed directly and specifically in other posts: #9, #12, #16, #18, and her actions addressed again in #25.

In post #28 you said, "It is because of her habitually posting things like this that I demanded an immediate source above. The 'question' was raised without evidence. It amounts to a smear, and has now amounted to a license for a fishing expedition..."

And my post #51 the style I chose was Kates. I simply asked questions about her the way she asked questions about Rand.

There are no special dispensations granting some posters here license to defame. But then I guess we are but lowly picnic sharks here to be gently chided by your video into proper behavior.

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