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Post 40

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

The hammer-screw scenario conclusion works because of all sorts of past observations and assumptions about how the world works.

Jordan


Post 41

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Assuming is taking something for granted. You make assumptions when you can't know. For instance, I assume my car will start tomorrow -- not because I know it will, but because it is logically superior to assume so.

However, I do not just assume that hammers work better on nails than on screws. You seem to miss my whole point here. It's understandable for you to miss my whole point here, because there are so few folks out there arguing for the kind of certainty that I do. Do you see the difference between starting a car and hammering nails versus hammering screws?

In both cases, there is an understandable mechanism producing predictable outcomes -- however, in the case of hammering nails vs. screws, there is a superiority relation that is contextually-absolute, and knowable to man. Man can't know if a particular car will start the next morning -- even though he understands the mechanism by which cars start. Man can, however, know in general -- via veridical generalization -- whether hammering nails works better than hammering screws.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/29, 7:27pm)


Post 42

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 9:14pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

Our discussion here goes way back, and we never manage to convince the other, but what the hey...

I'm not sure what difference you want me to focus on with regard to your car and hammer scenarios. Maybe you want me to focus on the idea that it's difficult to predict the occurrence of a specific event (car turning on tomorrow) versus events in general (hammers working better on nails than on screw)? Eh...doesn't change my point: To conclude something about the car and about the hammer-nail-screw stuff, we still need to rely on previous observations and conclusions drawn therefrom. The observations and conclusions are highly *reliable*, but reliability is not certainty. Your "mechanism" is just a reliable explanation of an event.

Point of clarification: Are you saying that every time a hammer hammers a nail it does so better than every hammer that hammers a screw?

Jordan

Post 43

Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 10:14pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I'm not saying every nail would go in better than every screw. That's silly. There are some nails that are bent, and some screws that are thin -- lending to the possibility that a particular screw could get hammered in better than a particular nail.

What I'm saying is that in the case of starting your car, you can't know it will start (before you turn the key). That's because the process isn't foolproof. All we have to go on is understanding the mechanism behind car starting, and tabulating the frequency (brute or savage enumeration) of successful attempts.

But there is a foolproof relation (a foolproof superiority) of nails to screws, when the tool in your hand is a hammer. It has to do with the nature of screws and nails. Now, on the flip-side, if you were working with a screwdriver then the screws would be better. I don't merely believe that it will be better. I don't overwhelmingly believe it will be better. I don't merely have extreme confidence that it will be better. I don't merely have a doubt-free mental conviction, pending on any "new evidence" that it will be better. 

In the context of general carpenter-ship, I know it absolutely. It is a veridical generalization.

The difference of the car and the nail/screw examples is that -- in the case of the car -- we have to rely on enumerating past success in order to get a handle on whether the car will start. We don't have to enumerate successes, however, in order to know (not just justifiedly believe, but to know) that screwdrivers work better with screws than they do with nails (in the context of general carpentry).

It isn't possible that some "new evidence" will ever overthrow that generalization. The are only two ways to usurp that generalization:

1) change what it means to be a "screw" or a "nail" (make it so that A isn't A anymore)
2) change the context

Both are illegitimate.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/29, 10:17pm)


Post 44

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 12:02amSanction this postReply
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Jordan, in Post 38, you wrote,
Circumstances change. Objects change. Identities change. This makes predictive certainty impossible. Joseph's critique doesn't overcome this point. The issue is not with the law of identity. It is with the efficacy of casuation identification.
The point of Joseph's critique was to answer Hume, and he's done that. Hume was arguing against necessity in causation. Joseph refutes Hume by showing that necessity is a function of identity. In Joseph's view (and that of Objectivism), the law of identity is ontological; it is not simply a law of thought, but a law of reality. The law of causality, which says that if the cause is the same, the effect must be the same, is a corollary of the law of identity. Just as a thing must be what it is, so it must act according to its nature.

According to Joseph: "The fact of change is not disputed, nor the difficulty of finding two things that are qualitatively the same. But if the second has a different effect, that must be because of its qualitative difference form the first, and not merely because it is a second; and so far as it is qualitatively the same, the effect must be the same also: it being understood of course that to sameness of effect qualitative sameness is equally necessary in all the material conditions. To deny this is to deny the possibility of reasoning altogether. If we cannot truly make the same assertion about a number of things, then, as Aristotle observes, there will be no universal, and so no middle term, and no demonstration. (Anal. Post. a. xi. 776a 5-8) For an universal judgment connects a certain attribute with a certain subject in virtue of their nature and without regard to the frequency of their existence." (An Introduction to Logic, p. 408)

Furthermore, I wouldn't say that just because circumstances, objects or identities change, predictive certainty is impossible. I can predict with certainty that if I drop an ice cube from my freezer into a glass of water, the ice cube will float. I know this, because I know that I am dropping an ice cube into water. To be sure, if I had some reason to doubt that the cube is ice, or the liquid water, then I would have less than predictive certainty. But barring such doubts, I can be certain that the cube will float once it's dropped into the liquid. I can also be certain that if I try to walk on water, I will sink. I know this, because I know my own identity and that of the water.

On the other hand, if I flip a coin into the air, I cannot be certain that it will land heads or that it will land tails. All I can be certain of is that it will land either heads or tails. Predictive certain is possible in some cases, but not in others.

- Bill

Post 45

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 7:29amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

On the other hand, if I flip a coin into the air, I cannot be certain that it will land heads or that it will land tails. All I can be certain of is that it will land either heads or tails.
That's the philosophical certainty I'm talking about. The coin will, definitely, come up heads or tails. It's because of the nature of coin-flipping that this won't ever cease to be the case. Therefore, it is a veridical generalization that applies to all normal coin-flipping, everywhere, and for all time.

Ed


Post 46

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

I don't know what it means for something to be absolutely generally true. Won't my car absolutely generally start when I turn the key in the ignition?

Hi Bill,

Again, Hume was not questioning the law of identity; he was questioning the effectiveness of causation identification. Hume doesn't say that causes don't exist or that things can behave against their nature. He is just saying that our limited experience leaves us with no foolproof way of nailing down causes. Joseph doesn't seem to address this. 
 I can predict with certainty that if I drop an ice cube from my freezer into a glass of water, the ice cube will float. I know this, because I know that I am dropping an ice cube into water.
I'd say the prediction is highly reliable as opposed to certain. It doesn't make a practical difference; the result will be the same. The difference is epistemic. Reliability is established through consistency in experience; to identify the prediction as reliable is to accept an experience-based epistemology. Perhaps more importantly, reliability precludes the arbitrariness that certainty would entail. That is, there's no non-arbitrary point where we can say that a prediction shifts from being highly reliable to being certain.

Jordan


Post 47

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 5:08pmSanction this postReply
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“On the other hand, if I flip a coin into the air, I cannot be certain that it will land heads or that it will land tails. All I can be certain of is that it will land either heads or tails. Predictive certain[ty] is possible in some cases, but not in others.” [Bill]

“The coin will, definitely, come up heads or tails. It's because of the nature of coin-flipping that this won't ever cease to be the case. Therefore, it is a veridical generalization that applies to all normal coin-flipping, everywhere, and for all time.” [Ed]

Until one rests on its edge.



Post 48

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 6:56pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I don't know what it means for something to be absolutely generally true. Won't my car absolutely generally start when I turn the key in the ignition?
There's specific knowledge of the specific, there's general knowledge of the general, there's definite/specific/particular knowledge of the general, and then there's general knowledge of the definite/specific/particular.

In the case of the car, we're seeking to predict an instance, which is definite, specific, and particular. What we have to go on -- in order to predict with at least some rough accuracy -- is crude, brute, savage, vulgar enumeration (of relative frequencies). We could predict better if we knew more, specifically more about each component part involved in a car-start.

For instance, if we knew the exact condition of the starter motor (before turning the key), and all other factors involved -- we'd be golden. We don't know this stuff though, so we assume, we take some things for granted. However, if we didn't have to take anything for granted -- if we knew the exact condition of the starter motor and such, then we could predict outcome 100% of the time.

There simply isn't anything left to be taken for granted regarding the generalization that hammers work better on nails, and that screwdrivers work better on screws.

What's general and absolute about the process of starting cars, is that they'll tend to start when you turn the key. Laymen know this by going through the motions several times -- and counting the successful attempts. A mechanic who is able to examine the car knows a little more, and a physicist able to examine the parts of the car knows even more. A philosopher, however, reframes the question to make it come out a certain way, justifying contextually-absolute certainty (as I did above).

Ed


Post 49

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Jon,

Good one. However, think back to your childhood. Recall a time when you played a board game involving dice. Recall a time when the dice more or less fell onto the numbers that someone wanted, either by a fluke drop or a "setting down" of the dice, or a more elaborate and "faked" roll. What did you say?

That's not a roll! Roll again!

:-)

It's the same way with coins -- though the instances where we say "That's not a coin toss!" (the one you bring up) are far less likely to occur.

Ed


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Post 50

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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Ed,

You say such mean things about enumeration. What has enumeration ever done to you? And how many times!? :P

Jordan


Post 51

Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 7:41pmSanction this postReply
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That's not a coin toss?

Oh, you meant an event that results in a clear heads or tails! And you are certain that any toss defined as yielding a clear heads or tails is certain to deliver a heads or tails.

OK, you’re right, that IS certain!

Mechanic: ‘A start-attempt results in a start or no start. Your car blew up when you turned the key. That’s not a start-attempt.’

“A philosopher, however, reframes the question to make it come out a certain way, justifying contextually-absolute certainty (as I did above).” [Ed]

Tell me about it.




(Edited by Jon Letendre on 10/30, 7:46pm)


Post 52

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
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Jon,

That's not a coin toss?

Oh, you meant an event that results in a clear heads or tails! And you are certain that any toss defined as yielding a clear heads or tails is certain to deliver a heads or tails.

OK, you’re right, that IS certain!

You're starting to understand what identity actually is and what it actually means so ...

Congratulations on that real advance in knowledge!

:-)

Hopefully Jordan will follow the example you've set (and see what identity actually is and means).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 10/31, 6:28am)


Post 53

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Enumeration has done to me what it has done to all sentient animals, it "trained" me and limited my view until I thought like a real human does. I think that you will come around to start to think like a human (as I did), once you let go of enumeration's hold on the concrete-bound part of consciousness that we share with lower animals.

You don't "train" humans with repeated examples, unless you have to (because of your, or their, limited mental acuity).

Ed


Post 54

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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Hey Ed,

Think like a real human? Nah. I prefer to think like the alien with the three fantastic, humongous brains. (It's Halloween after all.) Well, g'luck finding that non-arbitrary point where reliability shifts to certainty!


Jordan


Post 55

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:07amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

Well, g'luck finding that non-arbitrary point where reliability shifts to certainty!
That's just it, though. There isn't a sliding scale here. Your thinking requires a paradigm shift (as I alluded to above). Here's a hint: You won't find philosophical certainty by counting.

Ed


Post 56

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Hi Ed,

My paradigm eats your paradigm for breakfast...countless times! (I.e., I suspect we're at impasse.)

Jordan 


Post 57

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Jordan,

I invite you to consider reading my seminal essay on "human" certainty, and rereading it over and over again (for repetition) -- until it sinks in. At some point, it will upon rereading it, you will move from confidence to certainty.

And we will then no longer be at an impasse.

:-)

Ed


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Post 58

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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LOL - you wish,,,

Post 59

Friday, October 31, 2008 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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"On the other hand, if I flip a coin into the air, I cannot be certain that it will land heads or that it will land tails. All I can be certain of is that it will land either heads or tails. Predictive certain[ty] is possible in some cases, but not in others.” [Bill]

“The coin will, definitely, come up heads or tails. It's because of the nature of coin-flipping that this won't ever cease to be the case. Therefore, it is a veridical generalization that applies to all normal coin-flipping, everywhere, and for all time.” [Ed]

"Until one rests on its edge." [Jon]

Jon, it can't happen with a normal coin toss in which there are no physical supports preventing the coin from landing on either side -- which of course is the reasonable assumption in this kind of example.

- Bill

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