RoR: Forum

Bob that post was spot on.

Penn Jillette has an interesting approach to issues like this. A good term for it is the "rape victim premise."

When a woman gets raped it doesn't matter if she was dressing sexy, or anything like that. Something horrible happened to her and she shouldn't be blamed for it.

Muslims (and Christians, and people of countless other ideologies) have been sold a bad set of ideas, that to the degree they accept it will make their lives unlivable and lead to them making life horrible for others.

I don't hate any of them, until and unless they understand and accept what I said above and stay with their evil ideas anyway or they've taken their ideas past the point of potential forgiveness (iniated force). I hate the ideas and the ideology but I think the followers are mostly just victims.

---Landon

Post 21

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 6:50pm

I largely agree with David Earl St Clair. Religion is hold and interpreted by individuals and only individuals are able to commit violent crimes, not ideas. While David has Muslim family members, my own father is still a legitimate Communist Party member. Holding certain ideas do not automatically make a person bad.

Many mass violences have been committed in the name of Christianity throughout history. The mentality of the Crusaders were not much different from today's Islam fundamentalists. Today most Christians are peaceful because their views of their religion have been reformed over the last few hundreds of years. Muslims need to do the same with their religion.

I have only one disagreement with David. David said: "The Muslim religeon is no more anti-human than christianity, or budhism.Who, themselves have had violent pasts. "

No, the Budhism is never violent, nor is Hinduism. Unlike Christianity and Islam, Budhism is inclusive, not exclusive.

Post 22

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 1:23am

Bob, you just said what I have been trying to say. I do have family members that are Muslim, and I love them no matter how unreasonable their beliefs are. They are not terrorists, and have no plans to kill anyone that doesn't believe as they do. Even if religeon, qua religeon, is inherently evil, not all people practicing it are. This is why I say that we connot blame the entire religeon for what a chosen few did. I can't understand how a group of people, who are so intelligent, can't understand this. It seems so easy for me.
As a matter of fact, one of my cousins, and a group of his friends at a peaceful rally, some time in the seventies, were all murdered for what they believed. Someone attacked them for being Muslim. A group of armed "white" men, shot them all down, in cold blood. Is this proof that all white men are inherently evil? That would actually make me half evil then, since my mother is a white woman. And we all know about only being half evil. So I will answer for myself and say "no". And, neither are all muslims.
I will never allow them to steal away my freedoms, or rights as a free human being. But, in the same note, I will not go out of my way to disrespect, or try to take away their right of religeous freedom. Which is also a very fundamental human right. In this I am NOT saying that I give unearned respect. Because I don't. But, on the same note, I do not give unearned disrespect.
I am not, by any means, trying to apease anyone. If I were ever to find someone trying to commit the same acts as the people did on 9/11/2001 or anything similar, I would give my life trying to foil their plans. I did say earlier that I am willing to die, and kill for my rights.
Apeasement is not apart of my agenda, but tolerance is. I will not hate someone because they believe differently than I do. This is the very thing that most religeous doctorine teaches, and as a reasonable, and objective thinker, I refuse to practice that kind of seperatism.

Post 23

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 1:25am

Hong, I stand corrected.

Post 24

Thursday, April 6, 2006 - 8:06am

Great post, Bob! It's about solidarity with those whose freedom of speech is being threatened.

David said:

Because the religeon didn't attack me, and my fellow Americans. A few individuals did, that just happen to have been muslim. They were not representative of the entire religeon.

But, it's the religious leaders who put out the contract on Salman Rushdie and the Danish publishers of the cartoons. It's not just a few individuals, it's also many of their religious leaders, who influence large numbers of their followers.
David also said:

A group of armed "white" men, shot them all down, in cold blood. Is this proof that all white men are inherently evil?

Do you think it's fair to equate skin color with religious belief as a basis for judging someone?
Thanks,
Glenn

Post 25

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 12:32am

Yes they do influence a large number, but not the majority There is a large number of muslims that fallow Osama Binladin, but a majority do not.
The reason I made the comparison with white men is, everyone continues to group all muslims into one political idiology. If you are a muslim, you must be a terrorist. That, to me, is just like the Black panthers, or the Nation of Islam, here in America, calling all white people, the white devils. Considering all white people to be evil. A chosen few white, black, asian, and hispanic people are evil, but not all are. Neihter are all muslims. Most are just normal, everyday people wishing to go about their daily routine.

Post 26

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 4:01pm

David -

Haven't you considered us to be saying that we're scared about the 1% of Muslims living within our societies who want to blow the crap out of us, as opposed to the majority of Muslims?

Andy.

Post 27

Friday, April 7, 2006 - 11:53pm

Andy, it has been more than 5 years since the attacks of 9/11, and nothing else has happened within our borders. Anything that has been attempted, has been foiled by our national security agencies. Unless you know of any attacks that they aren't telling us about, and you have the inside scoop. I am no longer frightened that anyone is going to be successful attacking me inside the borders of this country.

Post 28

Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 4:51am

David -

No one was frightened before 9/11, either ;-)

Andy.

Post 29

Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 12:16pm

So Andy, What is your point this time?

Post 30

Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 3:32pm

The same as it has been all along, that radical Islam is something to be feared without the correct precautions being taken; One of these precautions should be the education of people about dangerous ideals, no?

Andy.

Post 31

Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 7:02pm

I think everyone, after 9/11, has a pretty good idea of how hostile some Islamics can be. But another education should be that not all islamics are as hostile.
As you said earlier, only one percent should be considered hostile to our way of life.

Post 32

Saturday, April 8, 2006 - 8:12pm