About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 12:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
May I ask why I should care that there is a website depicting images of Mohammed?
This is a story that has outlasted its normal duration, and needs to be let go. I, for one, am sick and tired of hearing about it. 
    Why is it so freaking important to disrespect someone elses beliefs. I understand questioning someone on their beliefs, and challenging their logic. I do that all the time. But I never disrespect anyone. And, it is disrespectful to continue agitating muslims with these depictions.
I suggest we all just let it go away. Please!


Sanction: 22, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 22, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 22, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Respect is an earned process - if a belief is anti- human in its nature, to 'respect' it is to concur with its anti-humanism, to be an assessory to the actions on which it is based.

Post 2

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Regardless of respect or disrespect, information is always valuable. I found going through this archive very informative.  (I think the relief sculpture on the Supreme Court building is going to be my pet factoid for a while!)

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
David;

"I suggest we all just let it go away."

Islam isn't going anywhere anytime soon; It's of vital importance that we stand up to the "theocracide" that Islam would have if i came to fruition in America and Britain.

Andy.

Post 4

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 1:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert, I said nothing about giving unearned respect. I did say something about giving unearned disrespect. Not all Muslims disrespected me, and my fellow Americans. Infact, some of my fellow Americans are muslims, and this includes family members. I have no cause to hate all Muslims, only a chosen few.
 
Keith,The Muslim religeon is no more anti-human than christianity, or budhism. Who, themselves have had violent pasts. We don't see people crying out against that violence. And there are still people commiting acts of violence in the name of "God" against homosexuals, and other groups, who call themselves good christians. Where is the disrespect we should be giving these people?
 
Andy, The United States has an 80% christian population. As for England, I don't know, maybe the same. I don't think it is Islam that we have to worry about. I believe there was an article in this forum about American christians not trusting atheists. Maybe that is where our worries should lie. 
 
Gentlemen, I don't have time right now to go extensively into this. I must go to work, but there will be more tonite.


Post 5

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
David,

This is not about "respect." It's about freedom of speech:


 

 

 



Post 6

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 4:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
David - I still can't see your point.

"I have no cause to hate all Muslims, only a chosen few."

Those chosen few would gladly end your life on the spot; They also are "spiritually connected" with your friends and family who are Muslim too. Don't tell me they're separate people; Because both are the outcome of a little thing called religion. Even the most moderate of Muslims will want to create an Islamic state in which for them to live; Do you think they care what that place is called? Iran, Saudi or The USA; It's all the same to them.

Allah and Mohammed supposedly gave them this green earth for them to inherit; They think it's Allah's; I think it belongs to you and me. Bush does get some things right; Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists.

I apologise if I sound a little preachy; I feel VERY strongly on this subject. My life is my primary concern; My destruction is theirs. Clearly we cannot co-exist with these people; Giving them ground is unacceptable.

Andy.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 7

Tuesday, April 4, 2006 - 7:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     When disrespect (can we say 'insult'?) is perceived via awareness of satirization, characaturing, mocking, etc of one's 'sacred' beliefs, and THENCE such perception results in the 'insulted' actually rioting, burning, bombing, killing, maiming, advocating and supporting all thereof, AND threats of more to come if such speech-viewpoints continue, and all this is accepted by the apathetic believers (and, 'empathic' sympathizing non-believers!) with little to no complaints about the lethal actions done by the insulted....(can we say 'PC'?)...

     ...then, I have a question: what about the 'insults' of the LETHAL ACTIONS of the killer-wannabees?

     Can we say that such believers (and non-believer empathic idiots?)  deserve WAY MORE of the same...if not also deserving their own actions returned to them?

      'Believers of "X"' who are so thin-skinned as to allow themselves to become dangerous psychopaths when they dislike another's condescension deserve no 'respect' at all, neither for their beliefs, nor their actions. --- They deserve only one thing: their desire for others...applied to them.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: I say: make MORE 'cartoons'. Make them as 'X'-rated as you can. After that, let's have a Mo' Hammed Day barbecue...of all the rabid-bacon we can...cook; and exterminate the species (or at least make it 'endangered').

(Edited by John Dailey on 4/04, 7:10pm)

(Edited by John Dailey on 4/04, 7:16pm)

(Edited by John Dailey on 4/04, 7:22pm)

(Edited by John Dailey on 4/04, 7:24pm)


Post 8

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 12:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andrew, I see now that you are going to hate muslims no matter what anyone says to you to prove what you say, and think is wrong.
   Ofcourse  they want a Muslim world. I want an atheist, and an Objectivist world. Will my dream come to fruition? I seriously doubt it. And niether will theirs. Ofcourse, I am not willing to kill others in order to have my way either, and niether are the majority of muslims. My muslim family members included.
   What I, and they would do, is kill to protect mine and, their right to practice what ever religeon we chose for ourselves. As long as my practice doesn't harm the rights of any other person, what business is it of anyone else?
   Muslims have lived piecefully, and co-existed in this country for many years now, and suddenly a few militants blow up the world trade center, and they are all evil bastards. The entire religeon. This just seems extremely ignorant to me.
  As for the freedom of speech issue. I agree about that. I should, if I choose, have the right to publish those photos.
  But, why would I publish them in the first place? I would have to know that the photos would spark some kind of backlash, and insite some kind of uproar. I would know that these people are quite fanatical about their religeon. As are most religeons. I would have to have some kind of agenda. Throwing gas into a fire maybe? Returning an improved situation back into a bad one? Giving the world more reasons to hate Muslims ( oh look, now they want to steal away our freedom of speech, or our freedom of press).
   I don't hate Muslims, or Islamic people. I also do not respect most of the things they believe either. But, I also have no cause to disrespect the religeon as a whole. Because the religeon didn't attack me, and my fellow Americans. A few individuals did, that just happen to have been muslim. They were not representative of the entire religeon.
Bush does get some things right; Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists.
Andrew, this is a statement of pure ignorance. There is also a position of indifference. And he said, you are either with us, or against us.


Post 9

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
" My muslim family members included."

I was waiting for this to come out. Feels like a civil war, doesn't it?

Hey, don't feel too bad, David. It's not just Muslims being depicted. South Park has "Jesus and Pals," Satan and Saddam Hussein shack up, Jesus gets his ass beat by Satan before Satan takes a dive, and God is depicted as a being that looks like Yoda's ass.

Kevin Smith does "Dogma" and pisses off the Catholics. Mel Gibson does "Passion" and pisses off the Jews. "Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat" pissed off my sunday school teacher. And on and on and on.

Muhammed ain't so special. Why shouldn't he get in on the fun?
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 4/05, 8:38am)


Post 10

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 8:47amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
" And, it is disrespectful to continue agitating muslims with these depictions."

Uh, it's disrespectful to go around chopping off heads. It's disrespectul to run planes into buildings. It's disrespectful to cheer at such a sight. It's disrespectful to chant "Death to America!" It's disrespectful to run riot in the streets. It's disrespectful to issue Fatwahs against authors. It's disrespectful to murder converts to Christianity. It's disrespectful to abandon reason in the name of Allah. It's disrespectful to condone suicide bombings in the name of Allah. Etc. Etc.

Respect is something earned, not given freely.

Post 11

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 9:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
David - Stop!

"As long as my practice doesn't harm the rights of any other person, what business is it of anyone else?"

You're saying that Islam doesn't harm anyone else?

Andy.

PS; I've no desire to hate any individuals; Our aim isn't against individuals. If terrorists are the NATURAL outcome of Islam (Which they are), what are our alternatives?

Post 12

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 1:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I already made the point that I never said to respect anyone for no reason, or without cause. On the same note we have no reason to disrespect the entire muslim religeon. It is a very small portion of Islam that are terrorists.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 13

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Andrew, yes I am saying Islam doesn't harm anyone. Individuals harm other individuals. The religeon as a whole did nothing to run airplanes into the twin towers, on the pentagon. It was a group of militants that did that. Each individual militant making the conscious choice to be a part of it.
 


Post 14

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Disrespect the entire Muslim population? Of course not. Disrespect the entire religion? Why not?

Post 15

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe, don't feel bad for me. I am not muslim myself. And I am not offended by the depictions. Just sick and tired of seeing stories about them.

Post 16

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I haven't seen enough. Go figure.

Post 17

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 2:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Andrew, yes I am saying Islam doesn't harm anyone. Individuals harm other individuals. The religeon as a whole did nothing to run airplanes into the twin towers, on the pentagon. It was a group of militants that did that. Each individual militant making the conscious choice to be a part of it."

I've had enough; I can't rationally debate this with you anymore. If you can't see a correlation between religion (Islam specficially) and treating life as though subordinate to god, allah, whatever, then you won't see at all. Terrorists are the natural and predictable outcomes of religion; To suggest anything else has got to be evasion.

Andy.

Post 18

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     Hmmm..."...Islam doesn't harm anyone.Individuals harm other individuals."

     I guess this type of thinking applies to Naziism, Aryanism, Communism, misogynism, etc, since, they're all just 'ideas', and not individuals.

     Of course, Catholicism is irrelevent to the Inquisition, Protestantism is irrelevent to the witch-trials...and Islam is irrelevent to Ground Zero. R-i-g-h-t .

     I find this type of thinking...lacking a bit.

LLAP
J:D

(Edited by John Dailey on 4/05, 3:25pm)


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 19

Wednesday, April 5, 2006 - 5:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

David,

 

You've gone way beyond advocating tolerance, which I support. You are advocating appeasement.

 

While there may be good found in most religions, it is only where it has deviated from its irrational foundation that you'll find that good. I used to believe that religion was just silly. Rand has taught me that religion is evil; it is evil because its metaphysical and epistemological foundation is the unreal, the make-believe, the fictional, the made-up, the irrationally contradictory. Without reality as a proper foundation, the ultimate consequence of these primitive philosophies called religion is death.

 

As Rand pointed out: faith and force go hand in hand, as do reason and freedom. Faith and reason are opposites.

 

I, like you, have loved ones who hold religious beliefs. I tolerate this in them and love them in spite of those beliefs, but I always condemn any irrational ideas or actions stemming from those beliefs. I continue to love them because of their overall good sense of life because they have not given explicit thought to these flawed ideas but have accepted them implicitly. I will tolerate honest errors from them. I will not tolerate the initiation of force based on those errors.

 

The freedom of speech is our most important right. Without it, there is no hope in winning the cultural war. When our right to freedom of speech is lost, that will be the time to shrug.

 

Freedom of speech must be fought for. We must use it or lose it. I do not grant sanction to any form of appeasement to the religionists, be they Islamic, Christian, Druid, or the religious flavor of the month.

 
No appeasement... no sanction... live free or die!






Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.