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Post 60

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Jon, I have to take exception to your revisionist account of WWII. Besides, do you know that cost of prolonging the war with Japan two or four months? The death of U.S. troops would be astronomical. Incidentally, the death of Japanese civilians would be considerably more. We had reached the point where we were killing as many Japanese with conventional weapons in two days that we killed with one nuclear bomb. Think of continuing that for 2-4 months!

Let me leave you with a recent quote from the military historian, Victor Davis Hanson:
We of quieter times lament the dropping of two atomic bombs. But those who lived though the nightmare of Okinawa — far more killed than on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined — were thankful that Okinawa was not to be soon repeated on a scale 20 times worse on the Japanese mainland.

Most Americans of that late summer 1945 did not censure their politicians for the use of such horrific bombs to stop the carnage of the Pacific War. More often they were perplexed that we went ahead with Okinawa when the weapons to prevent such a traditional bloodbath were on the immediate horizon.



Post 61

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Follow the Bidinotto link in post 56.

At 1:47 Brook says, "bring the consequences of this war to the civilians who are harboring, helping, and supporting the insurgents"

Thanks for making my case. Remember Bidinotto, context context context! 



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Post 62

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:30amSanction this postReply
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Unidentifiable Bob,

How are you going to make the distinction about who is harboring and helping when you are using a nuclear weapon???  Context indeed!

Jim


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Post 63

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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Lance (post 54), the example is silly since Osama wouldn't (a) announce a specific target in advance, or (b) pick NYC as a way to get our attention for an attack on...ahem...Cleveland. Okay, okay -- it has the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame, but...

Seriously, no foreign offensive measures we could take at that point could preclude a further attack: presumably the terrorists already would be in place here. We could bomb all of the Arab states into the stone age, but not stop the existing cells in the U. S. from acting here. Defensive measures -- martial law in Cleveland, a ban on all ground, air and water traffic into and out of the place -- might be the best bet to foil a given attack. But nuking the whole Middle East wouldn't stop the threat: it would merely move it to cells in Europe, Indonesia, the Phillipines, etc.

Which underscores my point about the long-term value of fostering international cooperation in intelligence-gathering-and-sharing -- cooperation that our launch of nukes abroad would destroy overnight. Psychologically speaking, not giving a damn about what Those Foreigners think of us is perfectly fine. But this isn't about getting them to like us. We need the cooperation of foreign allies for intelligence, troop deployments, flyovers of their air space, tracking down cells in their territories, etc. If so, then pointlessly undermining that cooperation makes zero sense. Especially if the way we do it is through a militarily stupid campaign of indiscriminate targeting of civilians around the Arab world.

Alternatives?

We have a great deal of leverage right now on the Saudi royal family, and we should be using it to the hilt. Their survival is threatened by al Qaeda; they also need us as oil consumers. We need to play hardball to get them to stop aiding and abetting the Islamicists. (That may already be happening; don't be deceived by the Rose Garden photo ops of Bush with Saudi muckamucks.)

Iran is a more serious and immediate threat. It is out of the question to let them develop The Bomb. They are the best argument for military action -- starting with their nuclear facilities. These are deeply buried and protected against even our own nukes; but these facilities are not totally invulnerable -- and the Iranian leadership is vulnerable. Besides helping out the internal resistance groups (which we are), we need to nudge things along with an ultimatum: Stop your production of WMD by X date, allow immediate international inspections, or it's Shock & Awe, Part II. The Iranian bosses hate us, but they aren't stupidly suicidal. I bet they cave.

Same with Syria allowing passage of terrorist scum into Iraq. They need a "seal your borders, or else" ultimatum, with a deadline -- followed by a punitive blow if they don't.

But using nukes against civilian populations there is both futile and immoral. Futile, because the leaders of these regimes don't give a damn about the lives of their citizens; the terrorists are too scattered to be destroyed by such attacks; and the repercussions would be to unravel all international support for fighting these bastards. Immoral, because it would amount to deliberately targeting the innocent rather than the state leaders and the terrorists.


Post 64

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:09amSanction this postReply
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The fallacy of the Straw Man:  First distort an opponent's argument by stating it in a extreme form, then refute your distorted position, not the real one.

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Post 65

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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Jason, you're free to "take exception" to whatever you wish, but you can't honestly say that I offered a "revisionist account" of World War II. The fact that Japan was already defeated in 1945 and thus it was wholly unnecessary for President Truman to use nuclear weapons (particularly on towns that were not military centers) is backed by a great deal of credible historical evidence. I even offered an example of such evidence in my post, which you flatly ignored. 

Many Objectivists think that because America, as established in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, is philosophically and materialistically superior to other countries (true), it means that American politicians have never acted wrongly when it comes to foreign affairs (false). This should be changed. It would be a good start if more Objectivists actually read U.S. history books written by credible, independent scholars, instead of simply repeating what they were taught in social studies classes (in government-run schools).


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Post 66

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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I logged out at post 5, being sickened by the matter. I return a day later, and "whoa!", the same execrable argument is being propounded here, now, and positively!

Thanks and sanctions to MSK, Robert B., Pete, Aaron and others who have preserved their sanity. Fantastic replies.

I'll try to add my own input without psychologizing the possible motives of those who have posted in support of Dr. Brook. It simply gives reason for this thread to be side-tracked on non-essentials.
I'd rather wipe out an entire nation of terrorists and those who support them directly or implicitly (by doing nothing) than lose one American soldier's life.
Is there actually a nation that consists entirely of terrorists. How nice of them to huddle up all in one place. Unfortunately, this is not reality.
Btw, so-called nations led by despots have no right to existence and, in fact, should be wiped out within seconds of coming into being because they pose a potential threat to American citizens just as surely as a murderer on the loose in our own country does.
So the moment a ragtag military junta takes control of a country, it should be nuked? Along with all the other people in that country whose only fault is to be caught standing on the wrong side of the border?

Please realize how desperately dictators try to cling to their "citizens". Such people who try to escape are brought to firing squads. Click here if you don't believe it. This is common to all dictatorships. Remember, these looters need the good people to survive.
Meanwhile, China, North Korea, Syria, Pakistan, Iran, Libya and others need to be on our immediate raze list -- nonobjectivist public opinion be fucking damned!
The United States is not the only country with nuclear weapons. Can you imagine China Communist hardliners making similar arguments? "Well dear Party Secretary General, this Taiwan problem is pesky. They are actually converting our proletariat with their capitalist rhetoric. Hey! We can solve this problem by simply nuking the island! Not one Red soldier lost! Does this not appeal to your sense of efficiency Secretary General?"

That is how hotheads (from both sides) manage to:

1) escalate a lesser war to a greater war
2) make a war where one doesn't exist
3) kill so many people who were just minding their own business

This is true from modern nation-states to tribal people. Read Chagnon's Yanomami: The Fierce People, for a scientist's insight on how humans justify initiating and aggravating war.



Perhaps, there is too much attention given to this. In Pete's words, objectivism could already be in "the fringe" of philosophical ideas (with representatives like Dr. Brook, it's no surprise). It would be presumptious to assume that the US administration would actually give serious hearing of these views. It's lunacy.

___________________________

Neil P., thanks for the notice on the new pope. What I did mean to indicate is that it would still reduce his 'moral standing' in the eyes of many Catholics, weakening the Vatican.

Nature L.,your post [46] on nuclear weapons was spot on.
___________________________


This post is already too long. You people sure type fast!


(Edited by num++
on 4/28, 11:33am)


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Post 67

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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Whew! Now that we have put off blowing up a huge slice of humanity for a while, we can get back to ARI.

Kat, that was a perfectly valid - and even important - point about ARI's PR problems with their despicable stance.

I feel really saddened that the legal heir to Ayn Rand's copyrights has founded an institution that resulted in this.

Ayn Rand was a proponent and defender of reason. 

For some reason I keep hearing a subtext of "Jewish" in ARI-originated pronouncements on the Islamic world I have seen. I hear words like "reason" and "USA" spoken by them, but all I can fathom is "Jewish" in their epistemological content of these words.

Nuking the bastards has very little to do with the USA - more like Israel, folks. Think about it.

(I am talking about the ARI management here. Not overzealous US patriots on this thread like Dave and Aquinas.)

I cannot be silent when I hear someone using Ayn Rand's precious name touted by "official" spokespeople to spew off collectivist garbage like these "noble spirits" are doing. That is degrading to her. It is degrading to reason. And it is degrading to Jews.

ARI is nuking its own self out of all intellectual seriousness that way. They will be able to coast on  Rand's copyrights only for so long if they keep that crap up. I have no personal axes to grind with them. It just makes me so wistfully sad to see the erosion and eventual destruction of what should be a moral sanctuary for rational self-interest.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/28, 11:58am)


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Post 68

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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But using nukes against civilian populations there is both futile and immoral. Futile, because the leaders of these regimes don't give a damn about the lives of their citizens; the terrorists are too scattered to be destroyed by such attacks; and the repercussions would be to unravel all international support for fighting these bastards. Immoral, because it would amount to deliberately targeting the innocent rather than the state leaders and the terrorists.
Excellent point Robert. I will also add to the point about unraveling international support by adding that we not only lack both strong international support but also U.S. citizens are deeply divided on the war. Yeah, we screwed up the first Iraqi war in leaving some stuff still smoldering and unfortunately, now we are having to deal with it. It should also be pointed out we are usually the ones cleaning up the messes after a war by throwing in all kinds of money, troops and humanitarian aid. Just imagine the type of mess after a nuclear war. They may be a threat, but simply not one worth the nukes.

edit - *purr alert*
Michael, we just crossed posts.... purrrrrrrrrrr
I'll add that I went to Andrew Bernstein's talk on the war last fall at Northwestern University. I agree with you. It is more about Israel than the U.S. interests.  He and I believe others in ARI are of the belief that Israel has the perfect government. There is definitely a pro-Israel bias in the organization that objectivists may not have been aware of.  Thanks for pointing that out.  Sanction smooch coming your way.

(Edited by katdaddy on 4/28, 12:06pm)


Post 69

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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There are days when I find it difficult to decide who is scarier - the terrorists or the idiots at ARI. 

It's probably a coin-flip.


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Post 70

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, I read clearly what you wrote, Jon. You said you wanted to continue the war with Japan for 2-4 months instead of dropping the atomic bombs. I pointed out that we were killing as many Japanese civilians by conventional weapons every two days or so and continuing the war for months would have killed 30-60 times as many Japanese civilians as the atomic bombs. This is probably the most atrocious proposal I have read today – and just to feel good about not using nukes.

I also provided a link to show that some would argue it was totally unnecessary to allow our GIs to die on Okinawa. But apparently, you are only worried about mistakes that kill the enemy’s family and even then only on two particular days! This is the most bizarre logic I have read, just to assuage guilt. Sorry, Jon, while I have many complaints about our government’s history, focusing first on this most vicious enemy and their families isn’t my first concern.

Two to four months of additional fighting and the additional loss of GIs might have taken the life of my father. When it comes to using those bombs – I say damn right decision. And I exist to be able to say it!


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Post 71

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 1:36pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, I read clearly what you wrote, Jon. You said you wanted to continue the war with Japan for 2-4 months instead of dropping the atomic bombs.
No, Jason, you obviously didn't clearly read what I wrote. I wrote that Japan was already defeated before the U.S. government used the atomic bombs, and thus it wasn't necessary for us to continue fighting at all. Here's more evidence:

In Japan's Decision to Surrender by Robert J. C. Butlow (1954), he quotes the dispatch that was decoded in Washington, DC, on July 13, 1945 (before the atomic bombs were dropped): "Togo to Sato . . . Convey His Majesty's strong desire to secure a termination of the war."

In Great Mistakes of the War (1949), Hanson W. Baldwin writes: "Our only warning to a Japan already militarily defeated, and in a hopeless situation, was the Potsdam demand for unconditional surrender issued on July 26 . . . Yet when the Japanese surrender was negotiated about two weeks later, after the bomb was dropped, our unconditional surrender demand was made conditional and we agreed, as [Secretary of War] Stimson had originally proposed we should do, to continuation of the Emperor upon his imperial throne."

In his book I Was There (1950), Adm. William D. Leahy writes: "It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons."
 
I could go on, Jason, but I think I've proved that more than 100,000 Japanese civilians were killed by the U.S. nuclear attacks unnecessarily. If you want to just ignore the evidence, go ahead. But that's not the mark of an Objectivist. And it's not the mark of someone I want to continue debating, either.


Post 72

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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Now I get your drift, you wanted us to stop fighting for 2-4 four months. Just sit and wait? Is this from the Gandhi school of warfare?

I've read about the claims that "they were trying to surrender but we didn't allow them to surrender." I’m unimpressed but that would require extensive exposition. Japan could have surrendered and insured the complete cessation of attacks at any time. They obviously didn’t do that. The total moral blame for the war and every single death falls on the Japanese government.

I also read many military experts whose advice was ignore and we took heavy casualties because of it. Oh, you don’t care about that! The only Monday Morning Quarter Backing that your concern with is with saving enemy lives. Can you say altruism?


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Post 73

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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I will leave the WWII debate for later, but regarding the current state of the world, keep in mind that:
1.  Trading with other Nations is good for us (and them) and a part of Capitalism
2.  The true "fountainhead" of wealth = human mind and what it can achieve.  The people currently enslaved can one day be great assets to us and the world.  Freeing them with a minimal of casualties is in our Self-Interest.

So, while some force may be necessary, each time a dictator like Saddam goes down there will be others who then give us the cracks we need to win without a war (i.e. the concessions we are getting from other middle eastern nations now).  Remember the Russians were defeated without a war, and China has already lost (they just don't know it yet, or in fact they do, they just realize that losing is actually = winning).  All we need is an edge to let globalization (which means capitalism, too) win.

The US can EASILY handly the military end, but what about winning the peace?  This is not WW IV, but war in the context of everything else.  It is war against ignorance, oppression, disconnectedness.  For that, we need not just occasional (especially not all out) military force but far more often diplomacy, peace-keeping, administrative, and private investment! most of all.

ARI is thinking of war in the context of war, and that no longer applies.  We have no enemies in that arena left.


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Post 74

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Kurt,

You wrote,
ARI is thinking of war in the context of war, and that no longer applies.
I would love to give them that way out. I can't. My take is that they are thinking in the context of Israel and distorting a great philosophy - no making an abomination of a great philosophy - to peddle a not-so-hidden geopolitical agenda.

I support Israel. I support other countries as well.

I do not support completely betraying the very ideas you were entrusted to uphold and preaching the unspeakable evil of mass annihilation - but hiding your arguments behind "security of the USA" and whatnot - to increase real estate holdings.

Michael


Post 75

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, I have to agree - I was not really giving an "overall" opinion of ARI or their statements but rather using that type of thinking as a criticism of that mode of thought - so that includes some of the conventional neocon type of ideas that are far too narrow in their view of terrorism, but that probably don't suggest Nuke 'em as a strategy.  I also agree there does seem to be an overly Israel-centric slant to ARI also.

Post 76

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 4:55pmSanction this postReply
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Now let me try the oft-discussed WW II issues:

Overall, the Pottsdam declaration for "unconditional surrender" was a mistake and probably prolonged the war.  On the other hand, it is easy to second-guess after the fact and it may have had value as a political statement to keep the Allies strongly bound together.  One significant advantage the Allies had was much better coordination of their war efforts.  In other words, the so-called "unholy alliance" was a stronger alliance than that of the Axis!

Bombing civilian targets as a terror tactic (which was most strongly favoured by the British) was a terrible tragedy and a grievous error.  Bombing itself, such as against factories and better yet transportation infrastructure (including shipping) was the most effective use of air power.  I think that there was even enough evidence of this during the war that I can fairly condemn it even in hindsight.  However, realize many civilians would also die from the other types of bombing I describe, but the deliberate targeting of civilians was counterproductive to ending the war.

That said, the overall "shock" value of the atomic bombs was all that finally got the utterly intransigant Japanese to surrender - albeit not quite unconditionally but damned close.  I think it was justified, their peace feelers were made without complete authority from the government but by some of the more reasonable factions within it.  It is entirely likely that holding off the atomic bombs would have delayed the war's end, killing more Japanese, Chinese (who were being starved to death because of Japanese attacks to deliberately destroy food), Americans and other Allies - not just those who would fight but the starving prisoners who were already at death's door, and so on.  Then, guess what, suppose the radicals who still refused to surrender had succeeded in their plot and stopped the emporer (they almost did except by virtually sheer luck).  No way to know what could have happened. 


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Post 77

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt,

I am still more of a hawk than you are on Iraq I think (from some of your posts).

But that isn't the issue here. I have no idea how the finances of ARI are run, so I can only speculate.

It galls me to no end to think that the copyright income from Aynd Rand's books is being used to fund that kind of crap. It ain't my money and I don't know for certain that it does. But just the thought of it makes bile come up in the back of my throat.

Michael


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Post 78

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry about the extra quotation marks in my last post. That last paragraph was my own words, of course.

Kurt, I agree that the Japanese were shocked by the atomic bombs. They were shocked that President Truman would use such devastating weaponry against them, the likes of which had never been seen before, *after* they had already made clear their willingness to surrender. And the terms on which the U.S. government later accepted their surrender were no different than what the Japanese government had offered before the bombs were dropped!

So why did President Truman unecessarily use nuclear weapons against an already defeated enemy (ignoring the pleas of his chief of staff and soon-to-be President Eisenhower)?

I don't know. One possible explanation is that Truman wanted to show that all the tax money spent developing the bomb hadn't been wasted. Another is that he wanted to display America's awesome new power to the Soviet Union. Whatever the reason, more than 100,000 civilians were either incinerated or died slow, excrutiating deaths by radiation poisoning.

In sum, virtually all historians agree that World War II was already over before Japan was nuked. America and the Allies had won. But Truman was enjoying flexing his muscles for the world too much.

Funny how history tends to repeat itself.

Post 79

Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 7:48pmSanction this postReply
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Michael Stuart Kelly:

"ARI is nuking its own self out of all intellectual seriousness that way. They will be able to coast on  Rand's copyrights only for so long if they keep that crap up. "

When was the last time David Kelley - or a rep from TOC - in the national press?  Yet,  I see articles from ARI representatives in  "The National Post", Canada's national newspaper, and Yaron Brook on Bill O'Reilly's Show. 


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