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Post 180

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 4:06pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

 

Are you advocating that the soldiers have the right to unilaterally abrogate contractual obligations that they voluntarily entered into, and for which they have received the stipulated compensation?

 

No.  I am not advocating that.  I am defending the soldier’s right to express a contrary viewpoint if the war is not justified or his life is being put in danger when it should not be.  Needless to say, there are limits to what a soldier can reasonably do when he is obeying orders, but that is a topic for another thread.


Post 181

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis

John,



If a young person volunteers to join the army because he wants to fight to preserve our freedoms, and then finds himself getting sent to Somalia or Iraq or Vietnam where the government’s purpose has little or nothing to do with self-defense, you would call him a “fair-weather” soldier with no right to complain?


And isn't it amazing Dennis, that probably according to your judgment just about every war America has fought since I'm guessing the Revolutionary War meets your definition of an altruistic war, yet for some reason a soldier volunteering for the US military in the past decade should expect to fight some kind of different war that meets Dennis Hardin's criteria of a non-altruistic war.

You'd think these soldiers who think the way you do should have known better than to join a military that according to your logic has consistently only fought altruistic wars.


(Edited by John Armaos on 1/22, 7:06pm)


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Post 182

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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There are about 200,000 active army and about 300,000 ready reserves.  When my brother-in-law's National Guard unit was sent to Iraq, he was not the only 50-year old soldier there. Another guy's children and grandchildren were there to see him off.[`1]  These people expected to be delivering hot meals to people caught in blizzards, to be filling sandbags as creeks rise.  Even during Gulf War One, they were sent to Europe to be support and logistics

 

My brother-in-law was a firefighter. Then, they were all sent off not to fight forest fires here but house fires over there. Next to him at that going-away breakfast was a 20-year old girl who joined the Guard to be a truck driver.  These people expected to serve at home.  The chief executive officer of the National Guard is the governor of your state.  They were dragooned by the federal press gang into being combat troops. 

 

They are, indeed, patriotic or they would not have volunteered.  They volunteered to serve.  They are Christians (most of them) who were raised to believe in duty and the glory of sacrificeAs Ayn Rand pointed out, if someone is making sacrifices, then someone else must be collecting them.  They are fighting because they were ordered to and they have the guardian/warrior mentality that finds this satisfactory to their own inner needs.  People like you put labels on the enemy for your own convenience.   For those who serve in defense of the nation, the labels are not necessary.  However, neither is any morality. If your president raised a green flag with star and crescent, these people would serve and fight and die for an Islamic America.  That is the role of the guardian. 

 

Personally, I see Objectivism as a philosophy for traders, for those who create values and who offer profitable exchanges.  As a security professional, I do not vilify the threats to my clients.  (A tornado is not a cyclano-fascist.)  As long as everyone under my care is safe, I have done the job I was paid for -- without sacrifice.

 

[1] When the Germans were activating 50-year olds in World War II, the Russians were at the gates of Berlin.  Are we so beleaguered?

 


Post 183

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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No.  I am not advocating that.  I am defending the soldier’s right to express a contrary viewpoint if the war is not justified or his life is being put in danger when it should not be.  Needless to say, there are limits to what a soldier can reasonably do when he is obeying orders, but that is a topic for another thread.

So, how would you rewrite the existing prohibition against active-duty military publicly criticizing the orders of their superior officers?  Should a soldier given orders to ship off to Iraq be allowed to publicly denounce his or her orders to do so, and thereby encourage mutiny, rebellion, or defection?  Should it be limited to when they are stateside, and have not yet been given deployment orders?  When they are in a combat theatre, but not actively engaging the enemy?  When they are under fire?

I understand your concern about the abrogation of free speech, even when voluntarily agreed to via a contract.  But, that has to be weighed against the need for people performing perilous tasks, for which the survival of the group members depend on teamwork and instantaneous obedience to orders, to not waste precious fractions of a second wondering whether their orders were just or should be obeyed.  This applies not only to soldiers, but to other occupations, such as firefighters.

Out of curiosity -- are there examples of other successful military organizations where soldiers are allowed to openly question orders they have been given?


Post 184

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 9:39pmSanction this postReply
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John—I’m not sure what point your sarcasm is meant to convey.  It isn’t difficult to assess when a war is being fought for the legitimate purpose of American self-defense.  Pardon me if I’m a little startled to see someone arguing for using soldiers as dispensable cannon fodder on an Objectivist website.  I see no point in pursuing this discussion any further.

 

Michael---Not sure who you were addressing.  I concur with much of what you say, but I would certainly disagree with any implication that wars truly fought for self-defense are not justified and moral.

 

Jim—There is a huge difference between (A) exercising critical judgment or voicing disagreement and (B) denouncing orders given by your superiors, challenging their authority or encouraging disobedience.  Once a soldier is given an assignment, obviously he has the responsibility to do everything he can to help the mission succeed.  Almost sounds as if you think someone enlisting for military service is expected to check his brains at the recruitment office.  I could understand a conservative making that argument, but not someone who supposedly agrees with Ayn Rand that thinking is the primary human virtue.


Post 185

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 10:52pmSanction this postReply
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"Almost sounds as if you think someone enlisting for military service is expected to check his brains at the recruitment office."

Dennis -- I'm saying they're expected to hold their tongues (with certain exceptions -- for example, if a green lieutenant issues suicidal orders, the ranking enlisted man would be allowed and indeed expected to make respectful "suggestions"), not check their brains.

Perhaps the limits on voicing dissent about policy can or should be loosened, but you haven't clarified when or to what extent you feel dissent should be allowed, so I'm still unclear about whether you're proposing something incremental or radical. Thus, it's hard to evaluate your POV.

Specifically, how do you feel about the Lt. Watada case?

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Post 186

Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Dennis using a patently absurd strawman wrote:

John—I’m not sure what point your sarcasm is meant to convey. It isn’t difficult to assess when a war is being fought for the legitimate purpose of American self-defense. Pardon me if I’m a little startled to see someone arguing for using soldiers as dispensable cannon fodder on an Objectivist website. I see no point in pursuing this discussion any further.


You obviously have paid little attention to the posts I've made on this thread and others regarding US foreign policy actions. You and I obviously disagree whether the current war is in the interests of this nation. I'm also curious to hear if you think any past American war was done so in the interests of this nation or if every single one was altruistic (I suspect the only American involved conflict that was justified to you is the American Revolution?) You think it isn't in our interests and that Iraq was chosen out of altruistic concerns (that is easily falsifiable considering the Bush administrations stated reasons regarding Iraq include security threats to our nation: WMD, state sponsored terrorism, etc) but considering the salient facts about the Iraqi conflict I can't see how you come to the conclusion it isn't in our interests at all. You can certainly cite a better argument that it wasn't the gravest threat, that there was an opportunity cost to choosing Iraq over other threats, that the way the war is being pursued is not desirable, that the rules of engagement are not reasonable, I would grant more respect to any of those arguments. But to say this was done for altruistic reasons is a clear obfuscation of reality. For you to say I think soldiers should be used as cannon fodder sorely misunderstands my position. I think they should use themselves how they see fit since they volunteered to fight this nation's wars, nobody uses them, they are not slaves, they are in a voluntary contract with the government so I find your comment to be somewhat Marxist. They are fighting wars to protect their interests as well as ours, and they do so using reasonable means of force that protects our long-term interests. Just as our police officers do not burn down an entire house where hostages are being held in an effort to combat crime. Yes our police officers do risk their lives for the safety of innocents to catch criminals, are they being used as cannon fodder?

But if you thought combating an aggressor nation was in the interests of the United States, all the same parameters of the current war would still be true. Every conflict has fair weather soldiers, every one of them have soldiers that want to abandon their duties, every war has its dissenters, every war has its rules of engagement to mitigate the accidental deaths of innocents, none of those things will ever go away. If anything you are arguing for a Platonic Ideal of the perfect war that can never happen.


(Edited by John Armaos on 1/24, 9:36am)


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Post 187

Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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I'm also curious to hear if you think any past American war was done so in the interests of this nation or if every single one was altruistic (I suspect the only American involved conflict that was justified to you is the American Revolution?)

John, I'm curious if you meant the exact phrasing used above, or whether this was an example of a bit of haste leading to the inadvertant use of phrasing conveying a meaning you did not intend: "in the interests of this nation".  Fighting a war in the interests of a nation (i.e. a government) IS altruism, in the narrow pejorative sense that altruism is used by Objectivists.  A non-altruistic war would be fought for the behalf of individuals, by individuals, even if their employer was the nation (as opposed to an independent militia).  The soldiers on our side in the American Revolution weren't fighting for a nation, since a nation didn't exist while the war was being fought -- we were in a state of anarchy, and the documents that would arise after the fighting was over, the Articles of Conferation and then the Constitution, didn't envision a nation so much as a semi-permanent alliance of independent states united for their common defense and a few other strictly limited items.  The perversion of that into what we now consider a nation happened bit by bit afterwards.

Re: which wars I would consider justifiable defenses of our individual citizens against foreign aggression, I would count the American Revolution, WWII (since Japan initiated the aggression at Pearl Harbor and Germany declared war on us), and the war in Afghanistan (since the 9/11 attack was on U.S. citizens on U.S. soil).  All other wars I would classify as unjustifiable acts of aggression on our part.

But then, I'm more of a strictly Non-Initiation-Of-Force libertarian than the sort of war-mongering Objectivists who seem to frequent these threads.  I mean that in the nicest possible way, of course. ;)


Post 188

Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
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Jim

John, I'm curious if you meant the exact phrasing used above, or whether this was an example of a bit of haste leading to the inadvertant use of phrasing conveying a meaning you did not intend: "in the interests of this nation". Fighting a war in the interests of a nation (i.e. a government) IS altruism


Jim the context here is that the government, as servants to the individuals that grant them their powers, take actions to serve the interests of those individuals. We can get into a whole debate here as to how free as individuals we are in this country but that is a different issue, as this is essentially how governments work. I agree with you there is no such thing as a government's interests but that's not what I said, instead I mean the nation's interests (i.e. the individuals that reside in that nation) I don't think I'm oughta left-field here for using the term nation, as it is not the same word as "government", rather nation is the term that refers to a large body of people within a specified territory and not necessarily to a body of people tasked with governing. As such we as individuals share common interests like a need for national defense, a harmony of interests exists for such an alliance between men in a nation to establish a common defense.

we were in a state of anarchy, and the documents that would arise after the fighting was over, the Articles of Conferation and then the Constitution, didn't envision a nation so much as a semi-permanent alliance of independent states united for their common defense and a few other strictly limited items.


I'm confused by the standard of morality you have here. Why was it moral to have a temporary alliance because there was a harmony of interests to form such an alliance, but no such harmony of interests can exist on any semi-permanent basis? Is your standard of morality based on a time-limit?

Post 189

Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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John, thanks for clarifying what you mean by "nation".  Agree with what you said with that clarification.  Definitions can be slippery buggers, yeah? ;)

As for this:

I'm confused by the standard of morality you have here. Why was it moral to have a temporary alliance because there was a harmony of interests to form such an alliance, but no such harmony of interests can exist on any semi-permanent basis? Is your standard of morality based on a time-limit?

Perhaps this time I'm the one using wording that could be misunderstood in the absence of further explanation.  My point was that, as I understand the Constitution, the individual states were originally largely self-governing, and had the right to secede from their voluntary alliance with other states if that alliance no long met their interests.  This imposed an additional check and balance on the tendency of a national government to grow beyond its allowed Constitutional scope, since if the federal government became excessively tyrannical, the individual states could withdraw and either start over or force the rest of the nation to become less tyrannical as a condition of their reunion.  This appears to me to be a moral alliance, since it is based on the continuing consent of all the states involved.

The Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression, to some who live in the South) was, IMO, an immoral transgression of this principle of the power of states to secede, and set the stage for the expansion of federal power since then.  (One can concede that the Southern states intended to set up a far less moral nation based on slavery, while still stipulating that the right to secede was nonetheless a moral and necessary principle.)

So, my standard of morality has no time limits, but it necessarily leads to any alliance between states being permanent only to the extent that it continues to preserve the harmony of interests and maintains the consent of the states affected.



Post 190

Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 8:57pmSanction this postReply
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Jim,

 

Perhaps the limits on voicing dissent about policy can or should be loosened, but you haven't clarified when or to what extent you feel dissent should be allowed, so I'm still unclear about whether you're proposing something incremental or radical. Thus, it's hard to evaluate your POV.
Specifically, how do you feel about the Lt. Watada case?

 

I hesitate to comment at length because I am not very knowledgeable in this area.  I certainly do not have any radical opinions about where the precise limits of dissent should be.  The Ehren Watada case is fascinating, since he is clearly not a pacifist.  He refused to go to Iraq, but offered to go to Afghanistan because it was "an unambiguous war linked to the 9-11 attacks."  I certainly think the army had every right to initiate court martial proceedings against him.  Apparently he is perfectly willing to face prison time for his defiance.

 

I was talking more in general terms about a soldier’s right to speak his mind in contexts where it would not be seen as a violation of his contractual responsibiity.  I can definitely see major practical problems when significant numbers of soldiers refuse to comply with orders in the way that Lt. Watada did.  The army has no choice but to take legal action against such dissenters.  Individual soldiers do not have the right to pick and choose which wars they wish to fight with impunity.

 

 


Post 191

Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 10:36pmSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

I think we're in substantial agreement on this issue. At a minimum, I think that a soldier in the states, in between deployments, ought to be able to speak his / her opinion in letters to the editor, public speeches, etc. so long as they are not wearing a uniform, identifying themselves as a soldier, or saying things that are classified information. Right now, IIRC, soldiers on active duty are forbidden to comment on war policy at all in public (private grousing is allowed), under any circumstance, unless called before Congress and ordered to comment. That seems to me to unnecessarily strip soldiers of their First Amendment rights when such speech does not jeopardize their mission or fellow soldiers.

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Post 192

Friday, January 25, 2008 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Dennis,

At this moment no one is compelled to become a soldier. If a person enlists of his own free will and accepts as a condition of enlistment a curtailment of his free speech rights, then so be it. He has consented to hold his tongue while in service. When he leaves the service or is discharged then he can speak freely.

In a non-military context, a person working for a firm signs an agreement to keep mum about certain proprietary information. Is this a curtailment of free speech or something else. A person while employed by a company is obliged not to say anything contrary to company policy in public except when an illegal act is being done by the company. Then the person should come forth and reveal this. Otherwise, he keeps his lip buttoned until he quits.

Bob Kolker


Post 193

Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 2:20amSanction this postReply
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Bob,

 

You make a comparison between proprietary limits on free speech—such as when a company requires that an employee not divulge specific information about its internal operations—to the authority of the armed services to prohibit its servicemen from voicing their opinions about a specific military assignment.  An employee of Coca Cola, for example, has no right to reveal the formula for their product to the general public, because it would clearly damage their competitive standing.  The employee voluntarily restricts his own freedom of speech by contract.  That is a very specific and delimited contractual restaint.

 

To insist that a serviceman who voluntarily enlists remain silent when he feels that a given assignment is unjust is not really comparable.  Foe one thing, you are taking about a much broader restriction.  Preventing someone from expressing an opinion is radically different from prohibiting him from disclosing specific information.  A noncontroversial comparison could be made to valid prohibitions against a soldier releasing specific information about his platoon’s planned maneuvers to the press.

 

As to the soldier’s right to express opinions, I think a reasonable restriction would conform to the ‘clear and present danger’ principle offered by Oliver Wendell Holmes in Schenck v. United States:


"The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree. When a nation is at war, many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its effort that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight, and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right."


Although that faulty decision involved a civilian draft protester and was subsequently modified, I think it spells out a fairly decent guideline as to what speech, whether public or private, should and should not be prohibited once an individual joins the military. To say, as you do, that a soldier has “consented to hold his tongue while in service” suggests that he has become, in effect, a second class citizen, and that goes way beyond any reasonable limits imposed out of just concern for the safety of his fellow soldiers or the success of his mission.

 

Incidentally, I would certainly disagree with Holmes that this “clear and present danger” principle should be extended to the general population.  I agree with Henry Mark Holzer that speech alone does not rise to the level of treason and should not be legally restricted or suppressed for the "common good." 


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Post 194

Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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Jim:

Perhaps this time I'm the one using wording that could be misunderstood in the absence of further explanation. My point was that, as I understand the Constitution, the individual states were originally largely self-governing, and had the right to secede from their voluntary alliance with other states if that alliance no long met their interests. This imposed an additional check and balance on the tendency of a national government to grow beyond its allowed Constitutional scope, since if the federal government became excessively tyrannical, the individual states could withdraw and either start over or force the rest of the nation to become less tyrannical as a condition of their reunion. This appears to me to be a moral alliance, since it is based on the continuing consent of all the states involved.


Jim I'm afraid I would disagree with you that this is a good standard of evaluation to determining what is a just government. What if a state, say Connecticut, decides to secede from the union in order to become or perpetuate a tyranny within its borders? Indeed you seem to think that is moral by your next statement:

The Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression, to some who live in the South) was, IMO, an immoral transgression of this principle of the power of states to secede, and set the stage for the expansion of federal power since then. (One can concede that the Southern states intended to set up a far less moral nation based on slavery, while still stipulating that the right to secede was nonetheless a moral and necessary principle.)


This implies that a state has a legitimate right to sovereignty even if it does not recognize its own citizens' rights to sovereignty. So according to the standard of what is a legitimate government that deserves recognition to you is merely if it declares itself independent, even if it wants to continue subjecting people to slave labor camps. It is a moral confusion of the effect with regard to the cause, i.e. ignoring the context. A state declaring itself independent without regard to the underlying causes of why it wants to declare itself independent is a perversion of morality rather than in service to it. It was right for example for the United States to declare its independence from Great Britain and the tyranny of King George, because the United States endeavored to establish a more perfect union that better recognized the rights of its citizens to live freely. But it was not right for the South to declare its independence for the purpose of perpetuating a crime against humanity. The South had no legitimate right to exist as a slave nation.

Let's take this to an individual level, is it right for a serial murderer to have individual sovereignty and be free from government prosecution just as it is right for an innocent man to have that recognition of personal sovereignty? Of course it wouldn't, as the actions of the individual determine whether that individual has a legitimate right to sovereignty just as a state's actions determine whether it has a legitimate right to sovereignty.



Post 195

Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 5:18amSanction this postReply
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Follow-on to #90

 

Continuing atrocities in Algeria:

 

Algiers, Zemmouri, Boumerdes, Bouira





Post 196

Thursday, August 20, 2009 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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Pakistan-Afghanistan Saga

15 September 2008
A, B

1 October 2008
That Day

18 August 2009
Stay Tuned


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