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Post 80

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:37amSanction this postReply
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Everyone feels comfortable, apparently, conceding that some foreign state would conspire treachery against them and their countrymen, as in the obvious case of Pearl Harbor. Nor do people object to "conspiratorialism" or raise the issue of "psychological mindset" when considering the possibility that a foreign state conspired treacherously against its own subjects, as in the cases of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia or Cambodia.

However, charges of sloppy or reckless reasoning, or of eccentricity, or insanity ("tinfoil hats") are invariably hurled at anyone who marshals facts and evidence that suggests his own state engaged in secret activities for treacherous purposes. These charges are made as though the accusation that one's own government could behave treacherously against its own citizens is self-evidently impossible, manifestly absurd, beyond the realm of rational inquiry. How do these crystal ball gazers of history know this? They just know. And rather than deal with facts directly, they prefer to psychologize about those who disagree with them about some facet of history. As to why they do this, one can only speculate.


1) A healthy use of skepticism doesn't rule out the possibility of a conspiracy ever. Note the conspiracy by the Japanese government to bomb Pearl Harbor was never a secret. Their planes were not marked with a different country's flag nor did they attempt in any way to cover-up their crime but made it known to the world who was attacking. That's not what is meant by conspiratorialism.

2) Using Occam's Razor (taking the more likely scenario as the truth rather than the least likely scenario) we understand that the more people that are expected to keep a secret in perpetuity to keep a conspiracy under wraps, the least likely it would remain a secret.

3) The U.S. Government has routinely in the past tried to keep a conspiracy secret but has also routinely failed miserably to do so. Clinton's extra marital affairs, the Gulf of Tonkin attack, Nixon's Watergate scandal, these demonstrate the more people needed to be involved in a keeping a secret, the least likely that secret will remain secret. The Government couldn't keep a simple breaking and entering crime a secret, but we're expected to believe they can pull off the almost impossible, keeping a conspiracy that logistically would require massive support to keep it a secret (such as 9/11 conspiracy theories the government blew up Tower 7, where such a conspiracy theory would have to concede the entire civil engineering community is in on this conspiracy, and that they don't have a better understanding of the facts surrounding the collapse of tower 7 but less skilled ignorant individuals are better qualified to pontificate on building structural engineering)

4) Conspiratorialism is holding onto a conspiracy even when the facts suggest no conspiracy is needed to explain a set of events, and even when contrary evidence to a conspiracy theory is presented to rule out a conspiracy as a likely possibility, such evidence is ignored by the conspiratorialist. That is when reason is abandoned in favor of a non-falsifiable hypothesis to further a personal agenda, or someone just not willing to accept reality as it is.

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Post 81

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
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Mark: "Our military ought to be employed for the purpose of our defense. The word has meaning. If, after repelling an invasion or suffering an unpreventable strike, we have to go abroad to eliminate the source of aggression, we should do so."

Mark, you claimed you're not an anarchist. But can't you understand that by believing the US military ought to be limited to the defense of American citizens and territory (i.e., military noninterventionism), you're *de facto* a libertarian-anarchist-capitalist-conspiratorialist? It's already been proven that we can smear all such people with the same broad brush. You need to pay more attention.

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Post 82

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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Acknowledging the existence of various conspiracies is NOT what I mean by "conspiratorialism."

For example, obviously there was a 9/11 conspiracy: al Qaeda organized it. And obviously there was a Pearl Harbor conspiracy: the Japanese organized it. "Conspiratorialists," however, are eager to deny the existence of such obvious, acknowledged conspiracies. Instead, they assert that there was another, far grander, secret plot behind these events -- some mega-conspiracy, in which al Qaeda or the Japanese, respectively, were mere pawns.

Here's a decent-enough definition of "conspiracy theory" from the very informative Wikipedia entry on the topic:
A conspiracy theory usually attributes the ultimate cause of an event or chain of events (usually political, social, pop cultural or historical events), or the concealment of such causes from public knowledge, to a secret, and often deceptive plot by a covert alliance of powerful or influential people or organizations. Many conspiracy theories imply that major events in history have been dominated by conspirators who manipulate political happenings from behind the scenes.

The entry goes on to cite a discussion by Daniel Pipes on this topic:
In an early essay by Daniel Pipes "adapted from a study prepared for the CIA", Pipes attempts to pin down what beliefs distinguish 'the conspiracy mentality' from 'more conventional patterns of thought': appearances deceive; conspiracies drive history; nothing is haphazard; the enemy always gains; power, fame, money, and sex account for all.

Among the methodological fallacies and shortcomings of conspiratorialism:
Particular accusations of conspiracy vary widely in their plausibility, but some common standards for assessing their likely truth value may be applied in each case:

* Occam's razor - is the alternative story more, or less, probable than the mainstream story?

* Methodology - are the "proofs" offered for the argument well constructed, i.e., using sound methodology? Is there any clear standard to determine what evidence would prove or disprove the theory?

* Whistleblowers - how many people—and what kind—have to be loyal conspirators?

Regarding the bullet point "Methodology," above, I would elaborate as follows: Conspiracy theories are methodological variants of rationalism. Once postulated as an explanation, the abstract theory is then applied deductively to account for every subsequent fact, event, and personality, in its own defense and support. Precisely because the "explanation" involves conjecture -- unknown or hypothesized conspirators, meetings, acts, etc. -- the "explanation" can be modified to account for and incorporate anything, limited solely by the speculative creativity of the conspiratorialist.

For example, the downward collapse of the Twin Towers appeared to generate outward puffs of dust and debris. To the engineer, this is easily explained by the massive air pressure generated by collapsing upper floors and ceilings, which blew out the windows of the floors below. Wedded to the 9/11 conspiracy theory, however, conspiratorialists "explain" the puffs of debris as evidence of a "controlled demolition."

For U.S. government complicity and involvement to be true, one would have to believe that "the Conspiracy" managed to secretly place massive amounts of explosives throughout the WTC, completely undetected -- a plot that would have to involve big teams of demolition experts sneaking into the innards of the buildings over a period of many days in order to lay their charges. One would have to believe that none of those people would ever become a "whistleblower" on this plot against thousands of his fellow citizens -- and one would have to believe that the Conspirators in High Places would have had total confidence in EVERY PARTICIPANT in this incredibly risky act of treason. The demolition team would then have had to lie in wait nearby at the preordained time after the jets hit the towers, so that they could blow these precisely laid explosives and finish demolishing the buildings.

In addition, to be true, this monumentally complex plot would also have to involve hundreds of others in a vast conspiracy to hijack those planes. Given the hijackers' (proven) Muslim backgrounds and al Qaeda involvements, there would have to have been direct coordination between the U.S. government and al Qaeda to get these pawn-"martyrs." There also would have had to be complex coordination between U.S. agents and the hijacking group -- to arrange their training, their international meetings and movements, their accommodations and funding.

To account for the simultaneous attack on the Pentagon, conspiratorialists have creatively hypothesized a U.S.-launched cruise missile, not a commercial airline -- which, to be true, would have had to involve active U.S. military pilots willingly shooting at their own headquarters and murdering their fellow soldiers. Add to this the incredible cover-up, involving radar operators, flight crews, ground crews, officials where the jets were based, etc. All this, to protect a group of politically motivated power-mongers.

Also, we have the little matter of that missing airliner, filled with people, many "important" -- including the wife of the U.S. Solicitor General. We have the little matter of some of their bodies, identified by DNA, recovered at the Pentagon site, too -- which, to have been faked, would have had to involve a host of additional conspirators among rescuers, hospitals, medical labs, etc.

And the same for the airliner that crashed in Pennsylvania. Either this was an action caused by al Qaeda, or by a U.S. military shoot-down. In the latter case, imagine how many people would have had to be involved in the action and the cover-up. Also, all the recorded cell-phone conversations from Flight 93 passengers to their loved ones would have had to be faked.

Now, add all of this together. Try to conceive how all of it could be kept perfectly secret -- without a single defector to blow the whistle, either before or afterwards. Try to conceive of any contemporary public official who would have risked so much to do such things. His actions would have to be undertaken with the full knowledge that, if exposed, he would certainly face a life sentence or even execution for his deeds. Then try to imagine hundreds of government employees similarly motivated, all acting in concert, and in complete secrecy.

When one considers all of this mind-boggling complexity, then contrasts it with the simple, most obvious alternative -- a plot involving 19 al Qaeda hijackers -- I can't imagine anyone who would leap to the "9/11 conspiracy theory" other than for psychological or ideological reasons.

Lending weight to this last point is the fact that so many 9/11 conspiratorialists subscribe to multiple anti-government conspiracy theories. All of these plots entail horrific acts of treason and murder (often mass-murder), deliberately and cold-bloodedly engineered by demonized politicians and government officials. Moreover, the conspiratorialists indict, as the diabolically scheming malefactors, individuals whose lives and careers bear not a hint of the kind of sociopathic motives that such atrocities would necessarily require.

Let's get real: If you were a sitting politician, just imagine what it would take, psychologically, for you to deliberately cause, or to consciously allow, a terrorist attack to annihilate thousands of your own fellow citizens, wreak economic devastation during your own administration by destroying the New York financial district, and cause huge damage to your own military headquarters. It's hard enough to imagine a single official with such nihilistic motives. To believe that hundreds or thousands of such sociopaths exist in public office, and that they could or would unite in such a nihilistic enterprise, completely defies common sense.

That conspiratorialists would remain wedded to such preposterous "theories" (no, let's call them "fanciful conjectures"), despite their many and monumental implausibilities and all contrary evidence, says far more about them than it does about the events they are trying to "explain," or the individuals they are trying to blame.

Post 83

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 4:49pmSanction this postReply
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Hey everybody! I'm leaving for the Outback for a week. But in my absence, please feel free to (metaphorically) beat me to a pulp, kick my teeth in, flush my head down the lew, drag me at 60 mph behind a pickup truck down a gravel road, or anything else they do these days to "conspiratorialists." I don't mind, "cause I know you've all been manipulated by the Puppet Masters. 

When I return, I'll enjoy explaining why Robert's attempts to cast certain historical ideas out of respectable company is regretable, misguided, and wrong. Not wrong because I say so; wrong because I can prove it. I'll also deal with the review and article that Bob Googled.

Thanks to Jon Trager for his friendly post. Better get out of Dodge, Jon. Before Tonight......


Post 84

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 6:15pmSanction this postReply
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The Jew Phone

My father used to listen to a conservative and Jewish talk radio personality broadcast out of Philadelphia. Shortly after 9-11 the radio host was incensed by the ridiculous claims that Jews were either behind the attacks or had received a secret special warning. He did a hilarious bit about how the conspiracy theories were true, and that he and his Hebrew friends had a special subscription to an alert service known as the Jew Phone.

The joke backfired. People thought it was true. Little old ladies were jamming the switchboards, asking where to purchase one of these phones. Callers wanted to know what 800 number to dial to order a subscription. One born every minute?

Ted Keer

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Post 85

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 7:29pmSanction this postReply
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Bidinotto, as usual, makes a number of excellent points.

But there's another possible one I've not seen discussed: why would the alleged conspirators bother?

Why endure the risk, etc. of any such undertaking when they quite openly and often abuse the American people without the need for any subterfuge?

They want to undermine energy production in the U.S. and they advocate (and frequently pass) laws and regulations that restrict exploration and production, hinder innovation, misdirect capital, etc. No need for any false constriction of the oil supply by conspiring with OPEC, et al. They simply endorse the highly suspect, and widely contested, conclusions of the IPCC report and, before long, ethanol is popular, carbon caps are a nearly done deal, and so forth.

Why would the government go to all the trouble of a conspiracy to scare people to accept, say, restrictions on the use of DDT, when all the head of the EPA has to do is ignore the scientific testimony on the subject, rely on the popular press, and simply restrict its use?

There are many other examples that could be cited from the past 50 or more years.

Really, they're quite open about their encroachments on freedom. Why bother with risky schemes to bamboozle anyone?

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Post 86

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 8:01pmSanction this postReply
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**The “Snow-Job” Technique**

One example of a “snow job” is orally when someone talks really fast, throws lots of detail at you, too fast for you to unsnarl the inconsistencies.

Or sift out the trivia from the stronger points. Or he hopes that sheer quantity of claims will overwhelm the fact that when you add up a string of epistemological zeroes, they still add up to zero.

The glib used car salesman is a classic example.

As far back as my college days, one of the effective techniques of the Left for misleading people is to try to “bury you in paper” and thus to overcomplicate simple things. To claim that you don’t know enough because you haven’t read the definitive bookshelf proving that John F. Kennedy was assassinated by right-wingers or that the Twin Towers were taken down by the U.S. government.

“Gee, everyone knows that Israel violated the rights of the Palestinians decades ago...and the claims that the Palestinians or Arabs aggressed against Israel have been disproved in this thousand page book by a known communist. Haven’t you read it? Shame on you! Drop everything and go master my (arbitrary) reading list.”

Then when you find a flaw, they refer you to –another- source and claim that you are simply irresponsible if you don’t do a massive amount of research to rebut each and every claim they make.

It is not just lefties who do this. Gullible libertarians, for example, have bought into this process (led by verbose “scholars” like Rothbard).

The only proper way to respond is: Show me. Bring it right here. You claim that if I read hundreds of pages I would be convinced. No one has time to read books on your say so alone, so instead of telling us how many people are convinced. Bring the BEST of the evidence here. You do know how to –essentialize- and –summarize- don’t you?

SHOW US THE SMOKING GUN IN CRYSTAL CLEAR FASHION OR SHUT UP.
....

Example of a “snow job” from this thread:

“David Griffin proved in four books that our government had to have been at least complicit in, and very possibly responsible for, the 911 attacks. ...massive evidence, stubborn inalterable facts, careful and restrained reasoning, and scrupulous logic. Yet Randians who defend the Bush wars refuse to read any of his books, which they mischaracterise ... a case that they have never read...
.... you're mistaken about this, as you'll discover by visiting http://patriotsquestion911.com, which lists among those who have spoken out publically about their doubts about the official story the following: 110 military, intelligence, law enforcement and government officials; 270 engineers and architects; 60 pilots and aviation officials; 170 professors; 200+ 911 survivors and family members; 110 entertainment and media professionals; seven CIA veterans; eight Republican Administration appointees.” [Mark Humphrey]

Notice the attempt to impress you with numbers instead of "smoking gun" argument in the last sentence.

Notice also the over-verbose, "blowing smoke" tone of many of Mark's overlong posts in which the thread of argument gets lost.

Or is never made.


(Edited by Philip Coates on 12/10, 8:13pm)


Post 87

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
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That was a great smoking gun summary!

Post 88

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:30pmSanction this postReply
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Good point, Phil. Sanctioned.

I raised a host of very specific objections to conspiracy theories generally, and to the 9/11 claims particularly. Based on past experience, I will guarantee that none of those points will be addressed in subsequent criticisms of my posts.

What will happen instead is that they will be completely ignored, and we will be invited instead to read fifty new books and articles...material that manifests the same fallacies and flaws that I pointed out. As if repeating these same falsehoods and methodological errors, but using new examples, will somehow negates the critique.

As you say, it's a "snow job" -- or, to adapt the metaphor, burying principled arguments under an avalanche of concretes.



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Post 89

Monday, December 10, 2007 - 11:06pmSanction this postReply
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(Thanks, Ted and Robert.)

Another example of a classic "snow job" -- by anarchist libertarians this time -- is the claim constantly making the rounds that an anarcho-capitalist paradise once existed somewhere on earth. The location and the voluminous books they want to read keep shifting.... Somalia...Medieval Iceland...a particular tribe of American Indians.

"Where's the evidence? Can you summarize it in a paragraph or detail it in a page or three?"

"..Well, it's kind of complicated...Here are some out of print books for you to track down.... " :-)

The part that very often fools people about “snow jobs” is that the people engaging in them are seemingly very hard-working and claiming to have done a lot of reading and to be "scholarly."

They -appear- to have looked in more depth (or at least at greater length) into the matter than, you, the person they are trying to convince, have.

And sometimes you have to look very carefully at the manner and respect for facts hidden between the lines of what they say and how they argue to see that, i) for those who are conscientious but mistaken, it’s just a shaky grasp on how rigorous are the requirements of proof -or- ii) for those who are not, it's simply a blustering attempt to intimidate.


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Post 90

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
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Follow-on to #68

 

Atrocity in Algiers

Country Profile: Algeria





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Post 91

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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Stephen, thanks for the pointer back to #68.  I saw the atrocity in Algiers on this morning's news. 

John, you must be reading a different article than the link from #68.  As I read their compelling essay, it includes a long string of statements such as this:
Reason and individualism are utterly alien to Iraqi culture. This is why, far from fighting for or establishing genuine freedom, they are enmeshed in ethnic warfare against one another, while hoping for “security” under a government in which “Islam is a basic source of legislation”—or one in which their particular tribe has massacred the others into submission. To be capable of freedom, the Iraqi people need an Enlightenment—not simply an aversion to their raging civil war.

Yet you claim that Brooke and Epstein said something else entirely about (in your words) "the primary goal ought to be to make Iraq non-threatening with a pro-west government. Freedom for Iraqis (well compared to Saddam they are more free today than before) is a corollary to that policy."  

As for whether and to what extent "the Iraqi people" (defined how?) are freer now than under Saddam Hussein, that, too, must be substantiated.  I do not claim that he was a nice guy or that I want him marrying my daughter.  However, I point out that like all such secular socialist dictatorships, Iraq under Saddam was a mix of some good opportunities (university education for women) within a lot of bad things (chemical warfare against the Kurds).   John, I emphasize the fact that there never was any such entity as "the Iraqi people."   We Americans for all of our diversity and pluralism are more of a "people" than they -- and I question whether a "people" can be reified at all.

Whether political freedom is necessary to economic prosperity is not a proven point.  John Stossel has an excellent presentation contrasting India to Hong Kong.  The largest democracy on Earth, India is poor while Hong Kong prospered under a colonial policy of benign neglect. 

Theoretically, here in the USA, we could elect two kings for life and the secretary of state for a six-year term and let the governors of the states pick the Supreme Court while Congress is filled with anyone who can get a million electors to sign a pettition.  The details are unimportant.  Culture is everything and Iraq -- like most of the world -- lacks a continuing tradition of reason, empiricism and (I hate to say it) pragmatism, that combined allow for toleration of opposition.  America has had its paranoid moments, anti-Catholic, anti-Mason, anti-Communist, but generally, the USA enjoys freedom and prosperity for objective reasons. 

(Parenthetically, Israel has an anti-government, pro-Arab, communist party whose Knesset representatives are women, ethnic Arabs, etc.,  Find the equivalent in an Arab or Muslim state.  What makes Israel democratic?  That is complex.  I point to one cliche:  Two Jews: three opinions.  It is the tradition of tolerance for disagreement.)

One of the principles of cultural anthropology is particularism:  cultures exist as they are for reasons and you cannot impose the standards of one on another.  That is not to say that you must endorse infanticide, etc., but that neither can you simply outlaw it or import baby formula to prevent it, without there being consequences.  We have a hard time seeing ourselves as "The Other."  We fail to appreciate the particularism of capitalism, individualism and reason.  Whether and to what extent these can be exported is for the market, not the military, to determine.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/11, 7:02am)


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Post 92

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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Regarding Phil's post #89: I've troubled myself, on occasion, to actually read the source material cited by various anarchists. It's like following Alice down the rabbit hole.

For example, you'll get somebody from the Independent Institute rhapsodizing about the anarchic splendors of Medieval Iceland, and footnoting some obscure essay by anarch-onomist Bruce Benson.

You dig up Benson's essay, where you find that he's made positive but somewhat more guarded claims about the peace and harmony that supposedly reigned in the purported political paradise of Medieval Iceland. Benson cites as his source some "seminal" but equally obscure essay by economist David Friedman (a Medieval history buff, and ranking member of the Society for Creative Anachronism).

Then you finally dredge up an archived copy of Friedman's essay online...where you discover, at its end, that he's added some major qualifiers and caveats about whether the historical records and claims about this alleged anarcho-paradise are truly accurate or complete. You also find out that, in context, this "paradise" was a veritable tribal theocracy, and that the "final arbiter" of disputes was a combo Attila and Witch Doctor.

Now, most pimply-faced teenagers -- fresh from their first readings of Atlas Shrugged (where they became enamored of the rebel-with-a-cause character of Ragnar Danneskjold), and discovering all sorts of online claims about the "anarchist model" of Medieval Iceland -- would not bother to track down the footnotes for such ambitious claims and discover the full context. Nor would they have the analytical maturity to wonder whether a Medieval model could possibly apply to an advanced, high-tech society rooted in international trade and travel.

But such cherry-picked historical factoids, drawn from arcane and dubious sources, DO serve the psychological purpose of providing reassurance for entertaining wild utopian fantasies. And when such historical claims are cross-referenced and repeated by dozens of writers, each pointing to each other as the source, it's easy to fill up the footnotes section of a book and to give it a profoundly scholarly cachet. Refuting the fraudulent claims requires a commitment to tedious fact-checking that few people have the time and inclination to perform.

That's why my own approach has been to focus on the methodological issues -- issues of principle, rather than getting down in the weeds of endless factual claims and counter-claims. That game gets you nowhere.



Post 93

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 8:12amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Your above post is one of the most beautiful posts I have ever read--shame to waste it in such a temporal medium.

Michael

Post 94

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 9:03amSanction this postReply
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Michael, thanks. The temporal nature of this medium is why I also write in a magazine: The printed word endures. And frankly, I often post preliminary thoughts on sites like this one, and in my blog, then draw upon these musings for later, more polished print publications.

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Post 95

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 2:01pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, in order to dismiss facts, we have to stipulate to them.  By that I mean what von Mises said when he pointed out that socialists and capitalists agree that at a certain place on a certain date a particular commodity had some known price.  So what?  The capitalist and socialist disagree not about the the facts, but what the facts mean.  They dispute the theoretical framework by which facts are to be understood

But, for that to happen, we must, indeed, agree to the facts.  Otherwise, what you have is not objective truth (rational-empirical: logically consistent and consonant with reality) but instead an idealist rationalization for whatever you subjectively feel should be preferred by you and everyone else. 

As for medieval Iceland, having hacked and hewed my way through Njal's Saga when Lord of the Rings was new on college campuses 40 years ago, I can appreciate the examples of voluntary outlawry and wergild, though not as much as I like the fair courts of the pieds pouvres, or the fact that Genoa ran through four different republican constitutions all the while minting coins in the name of a man who never ruled there or anywhere for that matter.  

Medieval Iceland is an easy target.  We are not them.  They are distant from us in many ways.  Genoa and the fair courts, the Hansa, the Republic of the Netherlands... for that matter, Athens and before that Ionia...  Or in our own time, the similarities and differences in capitalism and individualism in the USA, the former East Germany, Singapore, Hong Kong, and Nigeria.  We couild use examples from our own world and avoid the footnotes.  That is why my discussions of the value, power and rightfulness of market services in defense and adjudication come from the world we live iin.  Waiting for one of my criminal justice professors, I met a student I did not know wearing a Securitas uniform.  I gave him one of my cards and wrote Allied-Barton on the back.  It was not for the presence of the American govrnment in Washington DC that we did not attempt to kill each other on behalf of our respective professors.  Yet,. had we been in Iraq, the very presence of that selfsame government might have been the catalyst for just such an outcome. 

(Is this topic not called "...Bidinotto's Facts"?  Why so, if facts are so tedious?)

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/11, 2:10pm)


Post 96

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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Reason and individualism are utterly alien to Iraqi culture. This is why, far from fighting for or establishing genuine freedom, they are enmeshed in ethnic warfare against one another, while hoping for “security” under a government in which “Islam is a basic source of legislation”—or one in which their particular tribe has massacred the others into submission. To be capable of freedom, the Iraqi people need an Enlightenment—not simply an aversion to their raging civil war.

In other words, individualism is not in their interest and as such never would be, by the nature of their interest...


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Post 97

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 3:16pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, did I say that I dismiss facts? Where was that? In fact, I have cited quite a few in my posts.

But I've found that some people interpret words as they wish rather than as they are written.

Post 98

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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Michael N., Robert - do you mean ephemeral?

Ted


(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/11, 4:44pm)


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Post 99

Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 7:38pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Malcom asked perhaps rhetorically: In other words, individualism is not in their interest and as such never would be, by the nature of their interest...
Yes, by anthropological particularism, their culture is what it is and would only be damaged i.e., turned against itself, by what we, (you and I and for that matter Bidinotto and Armaos as well), understand as "individualism."

No, by the standard of reason that mitigates your "... as such never would be..."  as never is a very long time.  Objectively, no, they should just choose to think and thereby choose to be moral.  But such choices cannot exist in a vacuum.  Even if one or another does glimpse the truth and thereby benefit individually, for the culture to shift to individualism would be to expect non-A to become A.
Robert Bidinotto: Michael, did I say that I dismiss facts? Where was that? In fact, I have cited quite a few in my posts.
 Robert, in this thread, most of the facts (truths) that you stated were of the nature of this: "...
the Independent Institute is an anarchist organization. I went to college with Jeff Hummel and know him well..."  as opposed to facts of time and place, actor and action involving the war in Iraq, which is the actual subject here.  You denounced one conspiracy theory (Pearl Harbor) by ridiculing another (Ozone Depletion).   "...my own approach has been to focus on the methodological issues -- issues of principle, rather than getting down in the weeds of endless factual claims and counter-claims. That game gets you nowhere."  Methodological criticism is one thing.  Validation of facts is another.

It is not that I do not "like" you.  I do.  (Though that is irrelevant.)  It is not that I do not "respect" you. (I do.  Again: irrelevant.)  The problem is that I disagree with you and I am attempting to keep you honest by holding your feet to the fire.  (Nothing personal, Robert.)


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