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Post 60

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
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John,

I sanctioned your post. And sent a friend of mine a copy, who at first thought Ron Paul had made a good point. After seeing your post, he thanked me and said, "I am humbled."

Remember Rand who saw things so clearly, and couldn't understand how others didn't see them that clearly too? Well, everyone has his or her biases or, (if you don't like the word "bias") point of view which, to a certain, extent, inclines them to focus on some facts or considerations and to ignore others.

If a person is intellectually honest, he or she can be converted, but the arguments have to be made, and sometimes made again and again. I don't know whether or not anyone has confronted Ron Paul with good, compelling arguments against his position. Perhaps, like a lot of people, he is so wedded to his views, he simply doesn't read or consider the arguments of the other side.

The most obvious things are often not obvious until someone points them out.

- Bill


(Edited by William Dwyer on 12/05, 12:22pm)


Post 61

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 12:30pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Bill!

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Post 62

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 2:15pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I think you may be letting Paul off the hook a little too lightly.

He's not just some random blog commenter, he's a U.S. Congressman and, as such, has a higher obligation to do his homework before giving an interview to Business Week.

More importantly, I believe his errors go deeper than a simple lack of information or a failure to do some historical research.

His comments provide evidence of deeper flaws in his thinking, such as an implicit moral equivalence between the U.S. government and the Iranian. He may well believe there's little difference. If so, I don't believe such an error can be made entirely innocently. Not, at any rate, by a middle aged physician with 20 years experience in public office.

Concretely, among other errors, he fails to distinguish between the Iranian government, the mullahs, and the general populace. There might be some slim justification for the average Iranian to be angry at U.S. policy and past actions. The President of Iran, the Grand Ayatollah, and similar persons have no such excuse.

He displays more wooly-headed thinking when he asserts that 'we are occupying their lands'. The U.S. military is not being attacked by the forces of the Saudi Government, nor the Kuwaiti, nor the Iraqi. It's being attacked by jihadists who have no official position or role. To portray these scum as some type of freedom fighter giving payback for wrongs almost certainly goes beyond mere error.

Somehow, I doubt presenting Paul with more historical evidence, additional data, or alternative arguments would sway him from his "hate America first" position. I don't think he can be unaware of the evidence that the IRG is supplying fighters with the means to kill U.S. troops. If that information doesn't move him, it isn't facts he lacks or good arguments, but the right values.

That brings us to the not-so-minor issue of aiding and abetting the enemy in wartime (albeit only by his words).

(Edited by Jeff Perren on 12/05, 6:56pm)


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Post 63

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 6:34pmSanction this postReply
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I could be generous and say perhaps Paul is losing his memory.  How could he forget about this from Canada?

Post 64

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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Excellent observation Teresa I had forgotten that incident.

I was also thinking further about Ron Paul's assertion we are under attack because the United States occupies their land, I remembered a terrorist incident in Egypt where foreign tourists were visiting the ancient Pyramids and were gunned down by Islamo-fascists. I was trying to make the connection between tourists and occupiers, never mind the fact they were visiting what is considered by Islam to be pagan structures, nevertheless those Imperialist tourists were occupying their food courts and bus depots.

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Post 65

Wednesday, December 5, 2007 - 7:55pmSanction this postReply
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Good point, John. Since Ron Paul's idea of foreign policy consists of trade and tourism, what do you suppose he recommends when trade is disrupted by fundamentalist Islamic regimes (say, Iran's nationalization of Western oil companies) or U.S. tourists are slaughtered in Arab nations by jihadists (your example)?

Mr. Jefferson decided that gunboat "interventionism" against the Barbary pirates was the only recourse. Mr. Paul recommends only Letters of Marque and Reprisal -- in other words, allowing the families of dead tourists to mount military operations against governments or terrorist organizations.

Jesus.


Post 66

Thursday, December 6, 2007 - 2:28amSanction this postReply
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Muslim extremist admits he was spy who revealed Canada bomb plot
By Toby Harnden
Last Updated: 11:56pm BST 15/07/2006
Muslim leaders in Canada have reacted with fury after a radical advocate of Sharia law revealed that he had been a government spy who helped to uncover an alleged al-Qaeda plot, writes Toby Harnden.
Mubin Shaikh, 29, came forward to confirm that he was recruited by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), the country's equivalent of MI5, and directed a 10-day winter training course in guerrilla tactics
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/16/wterr16.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/07/16/ixnews.html

 Only six of the 12 adults have been charged with intending to cause an explosion: Fahim Ahmad, Zakaria Amara, Asad Ansari, Shareef Abdelhaleem, Quayyum Abdul Jamal and Saad Khalid.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060605/terror_suspects_060605/20060605/





Alleged terrorist released on bail
Muslims put up much of $100,000 bond for eldest of 18 arrested in 2006 sweep
November 06, 2007 -- ISABEL TEOTONIO -- Toronto Star
Jamal, eldest of the 18 arrested in a massive police sweep in June 2006 for allegedly belonging to a terror cell plotting to detonate truck bombs and storm Parliament Hill, was released after the most serious charge against him was dropped.
A dozen men and youths allegedly attended a so-called terrorist training camp in a wooded area 150 kilometres north of Toronto, wearing camouflage and playing paintball.
http://news.therecord.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/265769


I understand and appreciate the threat to my own life from criminals who mask behind political rhetoric their choice to be predators.  The other night, in a sociology class, we watched a video made by one of our peers interviewing a ghetto gangster.  That criminal's excuses were not so airily stated. "I wanna do the right thing, but this is who I am."  That said, not every headline that scares you can be substantiated by a real threat to you.  It is only by sheerest chance that America is not being targeted by the Tamil Tigers or a dozen other guntoting muscle-mystics. ... or perhaps it is, but we just do not hear about it...

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/06, 2:52am)


Post 67

Thursday, December 6, 2007 - 2:29pmSanction this postReply
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I don't understand the point of post 66? Can someone else translate nonsenicalese for me?

Post 68

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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Perspective of Yaron Brook and Alex Epstein

 

Theirs concerning Iraq appears the same as Ayn Rand’s concerning the 1962 situation in Algeria, which she expressed in a newspaper column, included in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal (Chap. 12).






Post 69

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
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I tend to agree with Brook and Epstein that the primary goal ought to be to make Iraq non-threatening with a pro-west government. Freedom for Iraqis (well compared to Saddam they are more free today than before) is a corollary to that policy. Our presence there and our culture will influence theirs, just as it did with South Korea and Japan. I wonder if Brook and Epstein though give enough credit to Iraqis as their opponent asked of them. The same could be said about Imperial Japan, that their culture was not ready for freedom, that they didn't understand the institutions that are needed to make a free society, that Japan was a tribalist culture. But they sure as hell learned really fast didn't they? And without western intervention there would have been no hope for a pro-west, free Japan that we immensely benefit from today. I don't think Iraq is the same of course, but at least today there is hope, where as before there was none.

Post 70

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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Much is made, perhaps properly so, of the Islamic-based Constitution of the re-made Iraq. Though certainly horrible in principle, I wonder how much actual difference that will make.

I think possibly the U.S. legal system pays much more attention to the U.S. Constitution (even while Congress violates it regularly) than other countries do to their own.

Any international legal scholars out there know whether this is true or not?

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Post 71

Friday, December 7, 2007 - 7:00pmSanction this postReply
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There are two primary considerations in appraising the appropriate conduct of foreign policy and military action by a government. The first is ethical-political: what is a just war? The second involves historical facts: who did what to whom?

A just war is defensive. Because government derives its proper authority to act from its citizen clients, as an agent, it has no rights or powers that private citizens themselves do not first possess. If this is true, then certain conclusions follow. One can act against another using force defensively--to ward off an attack--or in retaliation--to right a wrong. Any other use of force--excluding life boat situations--violates the rights of the person targeted by one's forceful assault. Individual rights are the standard that, in political action, seperates right from wrong.

Bob Bidinotto and most others on this thread who share his views on proper foreign policy would probably agree with this proposition in its broadest application. However, they make a big mistake, I think, when they broaden the meaning of "defense" or "retaliation" to encompass unproven and sometimes far-fetched threats to Americans from various foreign states. Whether or not an alleged threat is really imminent or realistic, of course, falls under the heading of "history", an extremely important subject. But one can identify in the abstract what ought to constitute a real and present danger.

A real and present (foreign) danger is one that clearly, by any rational calculation, threatens Americans living within the territorial sovereignty of the United States with a violent invasion or attack. So, if another state masses troops on our borders with the clear intent of an immediate assault, or launches a missle that's headed toward Los Angeles, or is caught trying to spread germs or other toxins, then our government ought to get the aggressor using bullets, aircraft, missles, or whatever other military means are necessary to ending the aggression

Please note that "ending the aggression" is distinct from "ending the threat", because politicans love to postulate threats that almost always turn out to be bulls---. Moreover, even well-meaning people who don't want to BS can exaggerate the significance of an alleged violent threat, if their political values uphold aggressive military adventuring as virtuous. From that perspective, the world is overflowing with threats to neutralize. From that perspective, any "threat", in principle no matter how remote (aside from considerations of scarcity), calls for military intervention.

Readers will have noted the restriction that government should defend or retaliate only against aggressions committed against its citizens within its territorial sovereignty. This restriction is reasonable, because when citizens venture outside its jurisdiction they knowingly enter the jurisdiction of another state. If it were proper for our government to invade Switzerland because its government taxed or otherwise violated the rights of an expatriot or visiting American citizen, or because the Swiss government oppressed its own subject-citizens, then clearly abundant grounds exist for the Swiss government to invade the United States. If defending the rights of its client-citizens is the proper justification for government, then any state activity that ventures beyond this role necessarily violates the rights of its own citizens! For any citizen who seeks only (narrowly defined) defensive protection from his government is forced to underwrite non-defensive military adventures for non-defensive purposes.

The idea that a "good" government has "the right" to militarily assault a "bad" state that has not invaded its own territory, for the purpose of somehow advancing the "self-interest" of its citizens, is logically incoherent. First, governments may act properly or improperly, but they don't have rights; only individuals do. Second, the notion that the US government is "good" is preposterous and absurd on its face. Our government has become an authoritarian monster. Third, even if our government scrupulously respected individual rights, it would be improper for it to assault a bad state that had not aggressed against Americans. For the job it gets paid to perform is defensive. No free individual will voluntarily underwrite the cost of installing "democracy" abroad--not if he can't count on the state to force all others to pay for his whimsical adventuring. Moreover, the only means by which a government can uphold the self-interest of its citizenry is by installing an inviolable regime of individual liberty in its dealings with its own citizens, and yes, with citizens and subjects of other governments and states. There is precisely zero difference in the idea that the state can promote social welfare throuogh the War on Poverty, and the idea that it can advance our welfare through international social reconstruction, i.e. "nation-building".

As to history, my observation is that historical facts become optional to many people if they disrupt cherished illusions. Pearl Harbor is a good example. Robert Stinnett proved in Day of Deceit that FDR had foreknowlege of the attack, which he sought to provoke for the purpose of dragging reluctant Americans into Europe's war. Yet guazy-eyed ideologues devoted to the illusion of the Great War steadfastly refuse to read plain facts. More recently, David Griffin proved in four books that our government had to have been at least complicit in, and very possibly responsible for, the 911 attacks. He proves his case with massive evidence, stubborn inalterable facts, careful and restrained reasoning, and scrupulous logic. Yet Randians who defend the Bush wars refuse to read any of his books, which they mischaracterise as irresponsible and outlandish. Instead, they prefer to Google for refutations of a case that they have never read.

If what I wrote in the preceeding paragraph is true, who is guilty of "cheery-picking" history?


Post 72

Saturday, December 8, 2007 - 11:33amSanction this postReply
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John Armaos asserted: Our presence there and our culture will influence theirs, just as it did with South Korea and Japan.
The history of post-WWII Korea belies this claim.  Syngman Rhee looted South Korea.  His dictatorship was so woefully corrupt that North Korea was the more effective economy.  You have to go slothfully quite a ways down the road to hell to be outpaced by the Reds. 

Having had two college classes in "Japanese for Business" before working for two Japanese companies, I can only respect their ability to be ruthlessly honest in the face of the facts.  They cut themselves off from the West in the 1600s and 200 years later found themselves facing steampower.  That brought an end to the shogunate and the rise of industrial and commercial society.  Their humiliation in World War II was enough to make them democratic.  (These are hugely broad assertions I admit but the general case stands.)  Their "salaryman" culture of the 1950s to 1990s mimicked the Western "man in the grey flannel suit" perfectly. But Japan has had centuries of tradition importing and adapting foreign influences including Chinese writing and Buddhism.  So to say "we" changed Japan is to miss half of the equation. 

Whatever influence American culture can have in Iraq cannot be "just as it did" in those two countries.  The contexts are different because the histories are different.


Post 73

Saturday, December 8, 2007 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,
You accuse some folks of reaching improper conclusions based on far-fetched and unproven information, yet the last paragraph in your post indicates that you are prone to the very same problem.


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Post 74

Saturday, December 8, 2007 - 6:31pmSanction this postReply
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Regarding Robert Stinnett (now hanging his hat at -- surprise! -- the anti-government Independent Institute) and his massive Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory, read this article:

A Cryptologic Veteran's Analysis of Day of Deceit -- A Book Review, by Phil Jacobsen.

However, citing a detailed refutation by a knowledgeable critic is pointless when it comes to persuading those ideologically committed to conspiratorialism. As I pointed out in this article on conspiratorialism, conspiracy theories are designed to be self-insulated from criticism. Employing a rationalistic methodology, they absorb any facts and reinterpret them in ways so as to uphold the conspiracy theories. No doubt that Mr. Jacobsen, author of the takedown of Mr. Stinnett, is either (a) a part of the Pearl Harbor cover-up conspiracy, or (b) a dupe of it, relying on evidence and documents cleverly manufactured or doctored by the Conspiracy. Never mind that Jacobsen is a professional cryptologist and security expert, while Stinnett is only a former photographer. Jacobsen we can dismiss out of hand, you see, because his expertise comes from within the Belly of the Beast -- as a veteran of the Naval Security Group, the National Security Agency, and other governmental intelligence organizations. To conspiratorialists, these affiliations, far from being credentials, are the Mark of Cain.

Likewise, let's ignore the fact that 9/11 conspiracy huckster David Griffin, cited by Mr. Humphrey as the most credible source on these matters, is not a structural engineer -- not even a scientist. He is a retired professor of the philosophy of religion and theology. Let's ignore the fact that the chief critics of his "theories" about the collapse of the Twin Towers are engineers and scientists, who have picked apart his "reasoning" and "facts" in painful detail. Let's also ignore the fact that the main defenders of these conspiracy cranks are readers with no particular expertise in the specialized research areas about which their heroes are making such claims, either.

While these wacky theories aren't particularly interesting, what is interesting is the fanatically determined eagerness of some people to believe them, in complete thumb-your-nose defiance of Occam's Razor. Given a choice between a simple, obvious explanation for some atrocious event (e.g., JFK's assassination; Pearl Harbor; Princess Di's or Marilyn Monroe's death; the 1949 weather-balloon crash in Roswell, New Mexico; the 9/11 attack by al Qaeda; etc.), or some bizarre, convoluted monstrosity of conspiratorial conjecture, certain people will pick the latter option every time.

A number of years ago, I researched a possible piece for Reader's Digest on the "ozone hole" controversy. At the time, it turned out that the only skeptical book on the subject -- The Holes in the Ozone Scare -- was co-authored by two leaders of Lyndon LaRouche's conspiracy shop (neither a specialist in atmospheric chemistry or physics). The book was loaded with references to scientific papers and impressive-looking (to non-specialists) scientific charts and diagrams. All of these "facts" were aimed at refuting the idea that man-made CFCs were filtering into the upper atmosphere, breaking down, and releasing chlorine molecules that were depleting atmospheric ozone. In reality, claimed the LaRouchies, this was a gigantic hoax -- a devious plot by corporate "schemers" to make billions by scaring people to buy their new chemical products, which would replace Freon as a refrigerant.

Several weeks on the road interviewing the atmospheric scientists who had been conducting the actual measurements of CFCs in the upper atmosphere, and looking at the factual documentation for the CFC theory of ozone depletion, demonstrated to me just how easily non-specialists could be duped by pseudo-scientists with an ideological axe to grind.

In fact, I recommend The Holes in the Ozone Scare as a classic example of junk science offered up to ordinary readers in support of a conspiracy theory. I guarantee that if you know little or nothing about the science of upper-atmospheric chemistry and physics, you will be impressed by this book's marshaling of "scientific facts." You will have no way of knowing how it twists facts and scientific papers at every turn. It is an archetype of the kind of claptrap published by ideologically motivated conspiratorialists in support of their wild "theories."

Good scientists don't harbor predispositions, ideological or otherwise, to have research conclusions turn out in a particular way. But conspiratorialists are not good scientists.

Just as the LaRouchies have ideological motives for hating the U.S. government, so do many libertarians and anarchists. Some are determined to portray U.S. government officials as cold-bloodedly willing to have thousands of their fellow Americans murdered, simply for power-grabbing purposes. As "noninterventionists," anarcho-conspiratorialists also are predisposed to undermine any possible motive for the use of U.S. military power abroad.

Thus, foreign enemies simply could not be responsible for Pearl Harbor and 9/11; those events had to be provoked and/or orchestrated, with perfect precision and in total secrecy, by U.S. officials -- the same government bureaucrats that libertarians and anarchists otherwise claim are completely incapable of doing anything competently.

This, incidentally, is the most ludicrous inconsistency of their position. Government, they claim, is utterly and completely incompetent when it tries to do good. However, when it tries to do evil, they depict it as proceeding with diabolical cunning and infallibility. To conspiratorial mentalities, ginormous, Byzantine governmental machinations, involving thousands of plotters performing with flawless, well-timed precision, are infinitely more credible than the simplest, most obvious explanations for atrocious events: stupidity, incompetence, venality, lack of preparation -- or the calculated actions of non-governmental culprits.

You see, to blame Pearl Harbor on the Japanese would present a persuasive rationale for America to declare war on the Axis powers. Similarly, to blame 9/11 on al Qaeda would present a persuasive rationale for America to invade Afghanistan in pursuit of and retaliation against the terrorists. Both events also provide a general rationale for the existence of a U.S. military -- which is anathema to anarchists.

Far better, then, that America absorb, without response, direct military attacks that butcher thousands of its citizens, rather than possess or employ its own military in national defense.

And far better that we blame America -- not foreign powers -- for instigating such attacks, so that we can thereby dismiss any argument for a strong military response to military assaults against us.

[Edited for typos.]

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 12/08, 6:38pm)


(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 12/08, 8:02pm)


Post 75

Saturday, December 8, 2007 - 8:13pmSanction this postReply
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RB: "You see, to blame Pearl Harbor on the Japanese would present a persuasive rationale for America to declare war on the Axis powers."

Just to keep the historical record straight, the USA declared war on Japan after Japan attacked American colonies in the Philippines and Hawaii.  In response, Germany and Italy declared war on the USA, being bound by treaty with Japan to do so. 

It may be "human nature" or it may be only us, but when there is a tragedy, we engage in "counterfactual thinking."  If only... if only...  So, when we look at Peal Harbor, some people blame President Roosevelt and others forgo all that conspiracy nonsense and just say flat out that "groupthink" prevented the Navy Department from considering that Hawaii was exposed.  They never dreamed that Japan would attack. 

Personally, having worked for Honda and Kawasaki (and driving a Kentucky Camry today; in fact, tonight, I brought Sanjuro home from the library), I find it ironic that the Japanese military was encouraged by intelligence gathered from the children of foreign office professionals.  Enrolled as students at UCLA and Berkeley, they thought that Americans were fun-loving hedonists without the backbone for war.  Bomb Pearl Harbor and America will fold its hand and walk away from the table.  ...  or so they thought.
 
I highly recommend The First Casualty: The War Correspondent as Hero and Myth-Maker from the Crimea to Kosovo by Phillip Knightley.  In that, he cites a report from Margaret Mead.  Asked how the Allies could democratize Europe after the War, Mead recommended telling the truth.  Mead pointed out that most Americans had no idea how extensive the damage was at Pearl Harbor because the government was afraid that if the people knew, they would demand that the USA sue for peace. -- MEM
 

It is dangerous to confuse Art and Life, but there is this scene in The Fountainhead where the bad guys are bitching about Howard Roark and one says to  Gus Webb that he's just mad because Roark doesn't even notice him.  "He'd notice me if I bashed his head with a club," Webb says.  No, comes the reply, he'd just blame himself for not moving out of the way of the club.

The first thing you learn in martial arts is how to avoid getting hit.  The second thing you learn is how to block.  Sometimes you have to strike back.  It happens.
 

RB:"Government, they claim, is utterly and completely incompetent when it tries to do good. However, when it tries to do evil, they depict it as proceeding with diabolical cunning and infallibility. To conspiratorial mentalities, ginormous, Byzantine governmental machinations, involving thousands of plotters performing with flawless, well-timed precision, are infinitely more credible than the simplest, most obvious explanations for atrocious events: stupidity, incompetence, venality, lack of preparation -- or the calculated actions of non-governmental culprits."

 
 
Robert, I agree 100%! 

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 12/08, 8:31pm)


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Post 76

Saturday, December 8, 2007 - 9:44pmSanction this postReply
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Michael writes:
Just to keep the historical record straight, the USA declared war on Japan after Japan attacked American colonies in the Philippines and Hawaii. In response, Germany and Italy declared war on the USA, being bound by treaty with Japan to do so.

Huh?

Japan's goal was to attack American colonies???

So, I suppose that all those U.S. Navy ships that the Japanese sank at Pearl were just accidental, collateral damage from their attack on the "colonies"? That they were really aiming at downtown Honolulu, but lost their way?

And I suppose that Germany and Italy, were shocked -- SHOCKED! -- by this utterly surprising, completely dismaying event; and they only very reluctantly declared war on the U.S., solely because of their sense of honor about their treaty obligations to Japan?

Michael, tell me you ain't serious.

Post 77

Sunday, December 9, 2007 - 5:22amSanction this postReply
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Robert certainly, taking out the US Fleet was the goal at Pearl Harbor.  However this was part of the same plan as the neutralization of Corregidor in the conquest of the Philippines.  Though Americans feared a Japanese attack against mainland coastal cities, that did not happen.  Whether it was ever a plan or not is arguable.  As I said the Japanese expected that the attack on Pearl Harbor would neutralize America in the Pacific. 

In my opinion, historians make too much of the "luck" of the USA in having the aircraft carriers not at Pearl and later at breaking the Purple Code.  I look to the "structural" advantages of free enterprise versus fascism.  All militaries are willing to fight the previous war.  Japan was invested in battleship strategies though it obviously had carriers.  So too was the US Navy ballasted with battleship mentalities who could not see air war or submarine warfare.  That said war is an unequivocal endeavor and the smallest advantage -- cultural individualism versus cultural collectivism -- will leverage a victory.  For a comparison to the European theater -- though this may apply all the more to the Pacific in fact but I have no data -- the American pilots knowing cars as they did could tell their mechanics what the problems were.  The German pilots being from the leisure class not the proletariate could not communicate so effectively about the mechanical details of their planes.  Make of that what you will. 

The run-up to Pearl Harbor might go back 20 years -- Billy Mitchell was court martialed in part for upsetting the Peace Talks of 1920-22 with his bellicose predictions that the USA and Japan would go to war in the Pacific within 20 years. The Soong Dynasty by Sterling Seagrave tells of how the three Soong Sisters (and their brothers) successfully manipulated the USA into supporting their warlords. Chiang Kaishek tried to ally himself with Hitler and Mussolini.  The Italians sent trainers for the Chinese air force but they passed their students on the basis of their social class and Chiang Kaishek's air force destroyed itself without seeing action.  Madame Chiang came to the USA and hired the pilots who became the Flying Tigers.  However -- unlike the Abraham Lincoln Brigade -- those mercenary fighters for a foreign govenrment did not lose their US citizenships.  The point is that while we like to see ourselve as the good guys World War II was a conflict between the factions of governments not peoples.  Even as the situation vis a vis Japan deteriorated the American people were still getting the message via Sax Rohmer movies that China was the Yellow Peril while Japan was a civilized nation.

Finally, of course Japan cleared its attack on Pearl Harbor with its allies before the final commitment.  Nonetheless it was always "possible" that the Germans and Italians would back down or back out.  For the Allied effort the USSR did not declare war on Japan until the very end, all the while insisting that there be no separate peace in Europe. 

If you ever find a morally unequivocal war, please let us know.


Post 78

Sunday, December 9, 2007 - 2:20pmSanction this postReply
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Michael this is incorrect:
Just to keep the historical record straight, the USA declared war on Japan after Japan attacked American colonies in the Philippines and Hawaii.  In response, Germany and Italy declared war on the USA, being bound by treaty with Japan to do so.
 
Germany and Italy were only bound by treaty to DEFEND Japan had the USA attacked first, not the other way around.  Hitler did so anyway in order to try to get Japan's help against Russia.


Post 79

Sunday, December 9, 2007 - 9:43pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, I will read and think about the facts and arguments presented in the two or three articles to which you have linked, and anything else I can dig up about Pearl Harbor. For I don't claim to know conclusively that something is true or false until I have thoughtfully examined facts and evidence. If new evidence arises, I look at it. You'll hear back from me about this in a few days, when I get back from the ranch where I don't have internet access.

In the meantime, I'll respond to a few of your remarkable comments about "conspiratorialism" and the alleged "psychological mindset" of people who disagree with you about some event in history. A conspiracy is a secret plan put into action by several people for treacherous or dishonest purposes. Clearly, everyone knows and agrees that people engage in conspiracies. The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a conspiracy; as was Stalin's murder of each of his political comrades who helped him rise to power; as was JFK's stealing the election from Nixon in 1960 in Texas and Chicago; as was Timothy McVeigh's and Terry Nichol's blowing up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.

Everyone feels comfortable, apparently, conceding that some foreign state would conspire treachery against them and their countrymen, as in the obvious case of Pearl Harbor. Nor do people object to "conspiratorialism" or raise the issue of "psychological mindset" when considering the possibility that a foreign state conspired treacherously against its own subjects, as in the cases of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia or Cambodia. 

However, charges of sloppy or reckless reasoning, or of eccentricity, or insanity ("tinfoil hats") are invariably hurled at anyone who marshals facts and evidence that suggests his own state engaged in secret activities for treacherous purposes. These charges are made as though the accusation that one's own government could behave treacherously against its own citizens is self-evidently impossible, manifestly absurd, beyond the realm of rational inquiry. How do these crystal ball gazers of history know this? They just know. And rather than deal with facts directly, they prefer to psychologize about those who disagree with them about some facet of history. As to why they do this, one can only speculate.

Another favorite tactic of crystal ball gazers is to lump all "conspiracy theories" in the same category. Like the art of refutation through psychologizing, this "lumping together" gives short shrift to actual facts and evidence, as though all conspiracy theories--those supported with massive evidence and good logic, those poorly reasoned and unsupported by facts, those that are logical absurdities or psychological projections--were created equal and deserve the same response. But clearly, there are vast differences in the quality of various attempts at historical explanation. Just as clearly, to refute some explanation of history that one dislikes, one must deal with facts and evidence directly, rather than denigrating the historian (whom one has not bothered to read) as a "huckster", or unpatriotic, or "a former photographer". (The book jacket states: Robert Stinnett "was a photographer and journalist for the Oakland Tribune.")

Concerning 911, although David Griffin is a left liberal, AND religious, he performs a masterful job of marshalling carefully examined evidence provided by many experts from various professions relevant to his inquiry. You imply that all the rational experts--engineers, scientists, and so forth--have sought to debunk criticism and challenges to the official story: 
"Let's ignore the fact that the chief critics of his "theories" about the collapse of the Twin Towers are engineers and scientists, who have picked apart his "reasoning" and "facts" in painful detail. Let's also ignore the fact that the main defenders of these conspiracy cranks are readers with no particular expertise in the specialized research areas about which their heroes are making such claims, either."
But you're mistaken about this, as you'll discover by visiting http://patriotsquestion911.com, which lists among those who have spoken out publically about their doubts about the official story the following: 110 military, intelligence, law enforcement and government officials; 270 engineers and architects; 60 pilots and aviation officials; 170 professors; 200+ 911 survivors and family members; 110 entertainment and media professionals; seven CIA veterans; eight Republican Administration appointees. Among those who in recent months have made public their skepticism about the official story are: Dwain Deets, MS ENG, former director aerospace projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center; Commander Ralph Kolstad, former Navy fighter pilot and commercial airline pilot; Mary Schiavo, JD, former Inspector General, US Department of Transportation; a US Senator, and others considered successful and important. I won't try to list the numerous general and colonels. You get the picture. This is no longer a fringe movement.

You wrote: "As "noninterventionists," anarcho-conspiratorialists also are predisposed to undermine any possible motive for the use of U.S. military power abroad."  I'm not an anarchist. More to the point, neither is Robert Stinnett. In fact, he served in the Navy in the Pacific from '42-'46, where he earned ten battle stars and a Presidential Unit Citation. In the preface, he writes: "This is an unvarnished account of how the US got into a bloody conflict that threatened the free world. It is not an attempt to question the wisdom of America's entry into the war."

What logical reason should I have to delude myself about history? Our military ought to be employed for the purpose of our defense. The word has meaning. If, after repelling an invasion or suffering an unpreventable strike, we have to go abroad to elimminate the source of aggression, we should do so. I don't have to invent a false history about Pearl Harbor to have solid grounds for opposing American entry into that war. If it were true that Japan attacked us, and FDR and his crowd were completely surprised, then we could have retaliated proportionately. Except that this version of history ignores FDRs concerted efforts before December 1941 to provoke and goad the Japanese into going after us, in spite of our official neutrality. These provocations are not controversial or hotly debated; they're history. Many observers at the time commented on FDR's obvious bent toward war.

Similarly, with regard to 911 and the ill-fated invasion of Iraq: if the official conspiracy story about Saudi Arabian hijackers acting without official knowlege or assistance is true, then great! In fact, fantastic!!! I fervently wish this were true, a helluva lot more than you're apparently capable of appreciating. But I'd still oppose our military adventuring in Iraq, for good reasons.

(Edited by Mark Humphrey on 12/09, 10:41pm)


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