About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Forward one pageLast Page


Post 60

Thursday, March 1, 2007 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
yeah - remember, the Amigas was what the dinosaurs from Jurassic Park movie were created from....

Post 61

Thursday, March 1, 2007 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
There is no standard dialect spoken anywhere, whether of English, French, Italian, German, Russian, Spanish or otherwise that is not an "artificial construct" in the way that you are using the term. I suggest that anyone who cares read Raimo Anttila's textbook on Historical Linguistics, or Anthony Burgess's popular Mouthful of Air

English is a combination of Southern Grammar and Midland's pronunciation with the printer's spellings as adopted in London under the Stuarts. London Cockney is not the Queen's English, and even she does not actually speak the Queen's English. And everyone, by which I mean everyone, has an accent. Watch My Fair Lady.

Spanish is the language of Cervantes modernized with Castillian spelling reform. Italian is Dante's northern Dialect with a more centralized consensus pronunciation. German is Luther's dialect, which almost no German speaks at home. No Swiss can understand anyone From Berlin. Frankfurters do not understand Viennese. They all adopt a learned dialect. Russian is based on Pushkin's language with some Czarist spelling reforms. And while they are dyin oiut, the native dialects of Glashhow, York, Staffordshire, Kent and Somerset are just about mutually unintelligible.

Have you ever heard urban blacks speaking fast? Is the speach used in Rap music "natural"? Their vocabulary switches just about every five years. There was a Mad TV sketch that pointed out the truth. When "the man" starts to understand a word in jive, it becomes passe.

My mother's elders all spoke Ruthenian to hide their comments from strangers and children. When I speak my little snippets of Ruthenian, Russians call me Slovak, Poles call me Ukranian, and Ukranians think I'm a hick.

None of this is unique to, or even special to China. Neither is doubletalk, newspeak, or alphabetsoup. Do you know what "Drop some sticks means?" You may know what sorry, "they're 86ed" in response means. Doctors, lawyers, bureaucrats, psychiatrists, prisoners, cops and the military all have their own jargon, always meant to keep the outsiders ignorant. The only thing truly special about Mandarin, pu-tong-hua, or what have you, is that non-Chinese speakers don't understand it.

And how about them Jews?

Ted Keer

Post 62

Thursday, March 1, 2007 - 11:49pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil,

For a short period of time when I was doing some video editing I purchased a Sony 3/4 inch tape two-deck set-up converted for time-track sync and driven with an Amiga. 

When the Powerbook first came out I purchased one for my personal use. 

My first computer was a KayPro luggable.

But when I was making the purchase decisions for 7 and 8 figure projects I looked at the following:
  • The hardware and software companies I choose had to be there in the future for upgrades
  • I had to be sure I could get support down the road and be able to hire developers and technicians easily that knew that hardware and software
  • It had to be likely that widespread hardware and software compatibility would exist in the future and across third parties
  • I had to justify the cost per station
It would have been irresponsible of me to let the inner-techie drool all over my good sense and buy cool stuff that would leave the company up the creek 3 years later.

To put it real simply, the Windows/Intel commodity package can now do everything that can be done on a mass-produced personal computer.  It will interface with more software and more hardware than any other.  It has less chance of being obsoleted in the near future.  It has the largest base of replacement parts.  It has more systems people (cheaper), more developers (cheaper) and more certified technicians (cheaper). 

My brother has done high-end art work (art director for a national magazine) and high end computerized music (Grammy nominations) and he hates windows and hates microsoft and he loves the Mac - but guess what - he does his work on Windows/Intel because they have the software (and prices) that he needs.

If Amiga or Mac or whatever are much better in a bunch of ways, good for them.  But why attack Microsoft - they didn't put anyone out of business - only customers and/or bad moves on the part of a company can put it out of business.  Microsoft is an awesome tribute to free market success - this is the last forum I'd expect to be slamming them.


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 63

Saturday, March 3, 2007 - 4:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I've already listed a number of instances that don't fit the model of a good business entity for MicroSoft.  There are plenty more:

Steven Levy's classic "Hackers" goes into the Bill Gates story in some detail, as I recall.  Gates fundamentally altered the software market even before he pawned off MS/DOS to IBM.  It was Gates who began sueing computer users for pirating MicroSoft BASIC.  Up to then, software was passed around from user to user, typically at user group meetings.  Anyone was free to hack the code and make whatever improvements they wanted, just like the Open Source movement today.

I have nothing against people profiting from creating something of value.  It's just that the model of doing this became, after Gate's successful legal campaign, one of producing a slickly packaged commercial product that very often did not work as advertised and usually had major bugs, which might be fixed months later if sales started dropping as the word spread. 

And most of the money shifted from going to the programmers to going to the marketing company.  And you couldn't fix the bugs yourself both because of legal restrictions and the fact that the code was a black box system.

And, it didn't stop the pirates at all, with an estimated 90% of software today being pirate copies, although it did create a new market space for the black-boxed software.

This all hit the fan around 1983, when every scam artist and his brother produced garbage software and dumped it into the market in beautifully packaged boxes via the ignorant Toy'R'Us and Targets.  The buyers were collectively ripped off for millions of dollars, while a number of truly great companies, such as HES (Human Engineered Software) were driven out of business due to direct loss of sales to the rip-offs and then to the public backlash as people discovered what garbage they had bought and stopped buying any software at all for the next year.

Alternatively, we could have had a system, for example, in which the software was copied for a small fee at a local store or downloaded, with the fee going directly to the producer, who could also make money providing tech support.  Under such a system, there would be no incentive to pirate software - and who would care if you did (?), and a good wordprocessor could make millions of dollars for its producers.  Instead of $100, with $99.90 going to marketing, packageing, store shelf space, etc., perhaps $1 or $5 or 50 cents per copy would go directly to the producers. 

And, with open Source Code, bugs could be fixed quickly and distributed quickly, just as they are now in the Linux community, whose software generally has a rep for being much more reliable than the typical Windose products.

Today, instead, I shudder every time I hear that a new version of Windose is coming, as management where I work has foisted off several of them onto my work machines, and it is always a time to pray - as nothing else will save me from all the crashes from all the now incompatible software I've been relying on.  I'm crossing my fingers - so to speak - regarding Google's project to finally completely replace the Gates' model.

Then there was JAVA.  JAVA was designed by SUN to finally give us back the control over our computers that MicroSoft seems to be hell-bent on incrementally  removing with each successive version of Windose.  As you may recall, MicroSoft contracted with Sun to do a version of JAVA optimized for their OS, with the stipulation that they would NEVER introduce elements or features that would create incompatibilities with the Sun standard.

Is deliberate violation of a business contract in order to destroy competition good business practice?  Because MicroSoft did exactly that and ended up paying Sun a large settlement as a consequence.  However, they still came out winners, because they essentially destoyed JAVA in the process.  And that "win" came directly out of the pockets of all the rest of us.

MicroSoft's ultimate replacement for JAVA is of course Visual Basic, which most computer users are never going to find the time to learn.  I estimate that if I spent a solid year on just learning VB, I would be competent to write simple utilities of the sort that I could do in any flavor of the old versions of BASIC, which could be learned in a few days.

Then there's the Explorer browser.  I don't know if you are aware that MicroSoft has been removing user control features from it, but it's true.  Check into the issue of favelets (also known as "Bookmarklets"), for example.  Note the increasingly stringent limitations on the simple length of a favelet code that Explorer will allow.

And note all the features that should be in Explorer that aren't.

More and more we are being forced into a world in which everything we do will require fees to MicroSoft or other intellectual property holders, even when, as is more often than not the case with software patents, the patents were issued, not because the "invention" was new or original or non-obvious, but simply because the patent was applied for, and the patent office makes money off each granted patent, and nobody opposed it because the loss per individual is not worth the trouble.

People don't sue for the extras they never agreed to on their phone bills, because each one separately is so small it would never be worth it.  Together, however, they can easily double the bill, going to profit companies that are pure scam artists.

Similarly, people will pay directly or indirectly in millions of little frauds, for the intellectual property scams and other nefarious behavior that our corporate fascist system is producing, "incorported" in every product they buy, and the system is tilting more and more in that direction.

See http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html

also, http://www.amazon.com/Trust-Social-Virtues-Creation-Prosperity/dp/0684825252 , in which Fukuyama goes into detail on how the French monarchy destroyed the social capital of general trust via its patent system, leading to economic stagnation and finally the violent French revolution.


Post 64

Saturday, March 3, 2007 - 4:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I have always hated MS for the clunkiness of there products, the fact that each new system is grafted onto the old, with the flaws just multiplying. I used 3.011 until 2001, and then the new system crashed disasterously four times. I now have gone back to Mac, which has made me ever so happy, not one glicth ever, except with Word for MAC! and I could retrieve the file in OS easily enough.

"Then there was JAVA. JAVA was designed by SUN to finally give us back the control over our computers that MicroSoft seems to be hell-bent on incrementally removing with each successive version of Windose. As you may recall, MicroSoft contracted with Sun to do a version of JAVA optimized for their OS, with the stipulation that they would NEVER introduce elements or features that would create incompatibilities with the Sun standard.

Is deliberate violation of a business contract in order to destroy competition good business practice? Because MicroSoft did exactly that and ended up paying Sun a large settlement as a consequence. However, they still came out winners, because they essentially destoyed JAVA in the process. And that "win" came directly out of the pockets of all the rest of us."

This alone is reason enough to despise microsoft. They even got the validity of this business model on the Simpson's when homer was bought out by Bill Gates.

Ted Keer

Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 65

Saturday, March 3, 2007 - 6:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil,

There are so many flaws in your post I won't address them all.  I'm sorry if that sounds condescending but when I see the lack of logic I just don't care.

And I'm sorry to all the others on this forum that have a dislike for Microsoft.  It is everyones' right to have likes and dislikes and they don't have to be either rational or irrational.  But when we make statements we should be accountable for rationality. 
"Gates fundamentally altered the software market even before he pawned off MS/DOS to IBM." 
"pawned off"  What, like IBM - this giant international corporation wasn't capable of evaluating software and were hoodwinked or defrauded?   Give me a break!

Let's look at what you say Gates did that harmed the software market: 
It was Gates who began sueing computer users for pirating MicroSoft BASIC.  Up to then, software was passed around from user to user, typically at user group meetings.  Anyone was free to hack the code and make whatever improvements they wanted, just like the Open Source movement today.
So his terrible crime was to insist that others not steal from him?  He must not have the right to own the product of his efforts.  Christ on a stick - this is supposed to be an Objectivist forum!

Then you spend several paragraphs indicting Gates for the prices he charged being higher than you think it should they have been, as if the market place isn't the only proper place for the validity of prices to be determined.  You indict him for trying to protect his code from being stolen, and for not dedicating his life to creating an open source system, and for not paying programmer's more (what, were they enslaved by force, tricked with fraud?)

I've done software for decades and couldn't believe the next statement:
MicroSoft's ultimate replacement for JAVA is of course Visual Basic, which most computer users are never going to find the time to learn. 
VB has been around longer than JAVA - VB was introduced in 1991, JAVA in 1995.  And the number of individuals that code in one version of VB or another is much, much greater than JAVA - all of which still has nothing to  do with the hatred for Gates. 

Who is trying to make you do anything with VB?  Get over it - you can't attack Gates and Microsoft in the ways you have without abandoning Capitalism and harboring contradictions.  I have decided that your arguments boil down to a desire to do away with IP - people don't own the product of their efforts if those products are intellectual - like books, inventions, designs, code, etc. 

I'm not going to reply any further on the anti-Gates, anti-Microsoft posts - this isn't the proper thread, my heart isn't in it, different issues deserve to be parsed out enough to talk intelligently about them instead of lumped together as big stew-pot of unrelated charges, and the issues regarding what is and what isn't property are going strong on the copyright questions thread.  Adios.


Post 66

Saturday, March 3, 2007 - 8:03pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve, wasn't the breach of contract thing with Sun et al. innapropriate on MS's side? I remember it seeming so at the time in the press, as I read it critically. I'm not a rabid detractor, just a critic on what I see as obvious technological and specific narrow legal grounds. I have no axe to grind, seek no legal restrictions on MS, and am just curious.

Ted

Post 67

Saturday, March 3, 2007 - 8:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ted,

I appreciate your mentioning a single and specific issue which could be examined according to Objectivist principles.  And I appreciated that you made it clear you weren't a 'rabid detractor'  - that makes a difference for me.  I really do want to exit this aspect of this thread, and I don't remember the details of that legal action. 

We agree on the evil of any company's use of the courts or government prosecution to win what should be gained by wooing customers in a free market.  In that respect Microsoft may have been guilty on one or more occasions but I would say that has not been a significant part of their success.   I know that Sun and several other companies have been much more active in initiating government sanctions and lawsuits.  Look at the list of instigators behind the anti-trust actions against Microsoft and then about the EU actions against MS.  

Anti-MS or anti-Gates rants have never felt like a discussion of the merits of software excellence versus costs to acquire that.  It has never felt like a discussion of achieving success by means of government manipulation versus marketplace competition.  I could never see enough fire to justify all the smoke.

I'm uncomfortable with the intense hatred for Gates and/or MS - at least partially because none of the stated reasons would justify that kind of vitriol. 

And I certainly didn't like seeing intellectual property rights being the actual target and Gates/MS as a kind of stand-in ("See how awful Gates is?  Don't you just hate him?  Well, lets make everything better by getting rid of IP".)


Post 68

Saturday, March 3, 2007 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Steve, sounds good. All I remember at the time is feeling that something treyf was happening. I didn't think the remedy was antitrust regulation or the abandonment of IP protections. I see the failure of the congress to deal with IP issues, and as a side matter, telecom/cable competition issues, as a major failure on their part. The issues take brains to understand, and while they may garner campaign contributions, they don't garner votes. It is only by avoiding conclusive leislation on these matters that the campaign $ keeps rolling in. So the political incentive is to leave the real issues unsolved.

I also do happen to dislike Gates, but what that has to do with the law I know not.

Ted

Post 69

Saturday, March 3, 2007 - 10:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
And this thread was about what, exactly?

Post 70

Saturday, March 3, 2007 - 11:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If you haven't gotten the hang of it yet, Phil, just read again from the beginning.

Am I missing anything of value from SOLO-P? Since I still haven't read PARC, and since Mr. Valliant seems to think that answering a yes-no question is best done with an evasive paragraph-long non-answer, I haven't been bothering to reset my sign-on.

Ted

Post 71

Sunday, March 4, 2007 - 1:09pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Phil - yes? I'm here.  Oh, the other phil...

Just what this thread is about.

The problems and feasibility of getting Objectivism into China, I would've said.

For me, this fits into the larger paradigm of how to recapture the world business market in general, taking it from one of corporate fascist kleptocracy, to one of responsible free-market capitalism.  China has been a focus of mine in this respect because of long personal experience dealing with Chinese business people, and the fact that all the idiocies and short-term thinking and scams that plague our own markets are writ in 100 point Helvetica for China.  And it the solutions don't make it there, we are in real trouble.

By "responsible," I'm including some means by which externalities - such as destroying the planetary ecosystem - are handled a bit better than in our current model.  That shouldn't require a top-down Big Brother or some kind of collectivist Green Kum By Ah nonsense, but rather a closer accounting on the full cost of doing business to ones neighbors. 

I'm afraid that some of the examples I provided were controversial, but I'm not sure how that could be avoided.

On that note, re MicroSoft:  one only has to go to E-Bay and google on Amiga computer (there also was an "Amiga" rock band) and/or video toaster.  There you will commonly see 15 year-old Amiga systems still selling for significant sums.  How many PCs of that vintage - 386/486's - do you see for sale?  Maybe for $10?

The Amiga was not killed by MicroSoft (as far as I know, although I'm open for info on that... There was the incident in which a lone customs official held up the import of the Amiga 2000 for six months claiming that it was a cheap PC clone.).  It outsold the Mac for several years running, and with millions of users and the fanatical Video Toaster buffs leading the way, could easilly have taken on the MicroSoft/PC product line.

The Amiga was killed by the very same corrupt corporate culture and business model that enabled MicroSoft to prosper.  The guy who actually ran Commodore was a financier by the name of Gould - perhaps "Ghoul" would have been more appropriate - who clearly knew nothing at all about computers.  He backed Jack Tramiel when Commodore was about home appliances and pocket calculators. 

When Tramiel's innate arrogance got him kicked out of Commodore, Tramiel used his share funds to buy Atari, which had just been stolen from Bushnell by other financiers, in the same way and for the same reasons,  I suspect, that Wozniak and then Jobs were 86ed at Apple.  The financiers can make money going up or down via insider knowledge - easy enuf when you call the shots.  The one thing they CAN'T handle is a really independent creator running things.  Then you can't predict what will happen next.

Which is why Gould put a series of know-nothings in as CEO of Commodore, starting with a guy by the name of Max Toy, who boasted of never having had a computer on his desk.

Then Commodore went through a series of ups and downs.  Technical triumphs would be announced, appear and then mysteriously be cancelled.   I well recall the VP of Marketing appearing at an Amiga conference and telling us in one breath that the Amiga 500 marketing campaign had been a tremendous success and made huge bucks for Commodore, and in the next breath telling us, "We're cancelling it." 

Followed, as best I recall, by the announcement of the new Amiga 600, which had no more power than the enormously popular A-500, but used a whole new set of incompatible connectors and made most of the A-500 add-ons and expansions suddenly useless.

But knowing which way the market was about to jump can be really valuable to someone playing the stock.  Let's just suppose that you run company "A" and I run company "B."  I announce a huge breakthru for company "A," but I don't buy any stock in advance, as that would be insider trading.  However, for whatever reason, you mysteriously decide to buy an option on my stock.  Meanwhile, I mysteriously short your stock, just before you announce a disastrous last quarter.  Or, it might involve more players, making it virtually impossible to detect.

According to a number of the key people in R&D and engineering at Commodore, they could not come up with any other explanation of what was happening.  Management was deliberately killing the company and raking in the bucks in the process.

I and a bunch of other people tried to engineer a user buy-out of Commodore in its last year or two, but we were just too late.  At no time, from Tramiel to the last days with Medhi Ali, was there ever a technically knowledgeable person running the company.

Which is why it failed, although it made lots of money for the insiders.  Similarly for Atari under the Tramiels.

China is facing this sort of problem in spades.  If we can solve it for China, then the U.S. will be a snap.


Post 72

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 6:32amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
interesting that Jay Gould was one also the name of one of the famous early stock cheats who owned a railroad company.  He did not run it well, but was one of the first to use scams such as you describe.

Post 73

Monday, March 5, 2007 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Since Steve has bowed out of this in disgust, I feel free to attack his posts with total abandon.  Oh joy.
Steve Wolfer posted:
"Gates fundamentally altered the software market even before he pawned off MS/DOS to IBM." 
"pawned off"  What, like IBM - this giant international corporation wasn't capable of evaluating software and were hoodwinked or defrauded?   Give me a break!

*******

My reply:  The history of how IBM ended up with MS/DOS is extremely well documented, as in the PBS special, "The Triumph of the Nerds."  Or, there's quite a bit of stuff related to it in Steven Levy's "Hackers," which should be the Bible of computer historians.  Briefly, IBM got into the game late.  Their internal positive feedback information culture kept reassuring them that the personal computer was just a fad.  Until they started seriously losing customers, who were doing the stuff that previously they had paid to do via a dumb terminal on a distant IBM mainframe on their CP/M systems.

IBM had no excuse for this.  It had already happened once before when DEC and a host of other companies brought out mini-computers and started eating IBM's lunch.  IBM proceded to invent "vaporware" as their marketing ploy, promising all kinds of wonderful advances for their minis that never materialized, or only much further in the future.  By flat out lying to their customers, they survived.

"Fool me once...." 

But here was IBM again about to be cut out of a burgeoning market.  So they put together a crash program to build a PC.  The IBM engineers were totally competent. However, management still had a divided mind about the project.  Their idea was to build a machine that would do a few simple things for the user, but whose primary purpose was to emulate a terminal again on the local IBM mainframe.

So, they started out well, choosing the upcoming Motorola 68000 as the processor.  The 68000 - which became the core of the MacIntosh, of course, as well as the Amiga and Atarti ST - was a FAR more advanced chip than the Intel one they ended up with.  The problem was that Motorola was an honest company.

Thus, when Motorola stopped production on the 68000 and warned about a serious internal bug in the math processing end, IBM was left with no processor.*  Panic began to set in.  The resulting irrational decision was to go with an Intel 16/8 chip (16 bit internal processing, but 8 bit address bussing, or something like that - it's been a while.) instead of the 68000's 32/16 architecture.

*A friend of mine who programs for Motorola commented humorously, "Wow, INTEL would never do anything like that..."

The hardware design that IBM ended up with was modular, depending upon off the shelf components, with expansion slots for future needs.  This allowed them to get the design completed in time, but also meant that they would be locked into the PC model, in which everything has to be generic enough to run happily (or not) with any number of different hardware components or custom cards.  This means, in practice, BIG, SLOW CODE.

They had been working on an OS, and I don't know if it was the 68000 disaster that forced them to look for an outside supplier or just failure to finish the job, but in any case the announced deadline for unveiling the PC was fast approaching and they didn't have an operating system.

They really wanted the original CP/M.  But, when their team of attorneys in suits suddenly showed up at the door with reams of non-disclosure agreements, they found that the owner/producer of CP/M was on vacation far away and unreachable.  His wife, apparently indimidated by the legalize, was unwilling to make the call on the project.

Time for REAL PANIC!  So, and this part I don't recall the source on, so assume that it's rumor or not, Bill Gate's mother happened to be at some Board meeting of a charitable organization.  Another Board member was a higher up at IBM.  He told her about the panic going down at Big Blue.  She called Bill, who remembered that he had an unfinished version of a 16-bit CP/M originally designed for the Intel chipset by a bunch of Stanford grad students for a thesis project, that some guy had mailed him.  He had no interest in it, as the Intel chips were generally not held in high regard by the technoliterate, and hardly anyone was using them in computers...  (end of apocryphal rumoring) 

The rest was covered in the PBS special.  But, what the hell!  IBM needed an OS.  Bill had an OS.  So, Bill calls the owner and offers him $50,000 for all the rights, on the grounds that there might be some slight interest in the product, meanwhile negotiating with IBM for a slightly larger sum.

The rest is history.  Sad to say, MS/DOS was not quite what IBM had in mind.  For one thing, it lacked some of the most powerful CP/M features, such as the ability to log onto a remote machine and run it as though you were there.  But, with IBM's blessing, the PC was a guaranteed seller.  (end of my reply)

Steve posted:

Let's look at what you say Gates did that harmed the software market: 

It was Gates who began sueing computer users for pirating MicroSoft BASIC.  Up to then, software was passed around from user to user, typically at user group meetings.  Anyone was free to hack the code and make whatever improvements they wanted, just like the Open Source movement today.
So his terrible crime was to insist that others not steal from him?  He must not have the right to own the product of his efforts.  Christ on a stick - this is supposed to be an Objectivist forum!  *****

It's not the right to ownership that I object to; it's the way that Gates went about it, which ultimately resulted in a marketing model that does NOT pay the real innovators and producers very much at all.

Steve posted:

Then you spend several paragraphs indicting Gates for the prices he charged being higher than you think it should they have been, as if the market place isn't the only proper place for the validity of prices to be determined.  You indict him for trying to protect his code from being stolen, and for not dedicating his life to creating an open source system, and for not paying programmer's more (what, were they enslaved by force, tricked with fraud?)

***********************
Not exactly Steve, but I don't have time right now to answer all the above.  However, I would indict the big three American auto makers similarly.  Look how they killed the Tucker.  And there are other example...  And, long before personal computers, there was the case of TV.  Philo T. Farnsworth invented TV and never got a penny from it, due to the failure of our court system and the perfidy of RCA.

Steve posted:

I've done software for decades and couldn't believe the next statement:

MicroSoft's ultimate replacement for JAVA is of course Visual Basic, which most computer users are never going to find the time to learn. 
VB has been around longer than JAVA - VB was introduced in 1991, JAVA in 1995.  And the number of individuals that code in one version of VB or another is much, much greater than JAVA - all of which still has nothing to  do with the hatred for Gates. 

********

Yes, I'm aware of the time sequence.  It doesn't have anything to do with the argument.  JAVA was set to replace Visual BASIC in the market.  JAVA manuals were flying off the shelf.  And then MicroSoft started its war against JAVA and ultimately succeeded in effectively killing it.  The people who are programming in VB are largely people who already have a background in serious professional programming.  JAVA has a learning curve as well, but nowhere near that of VB.  And, how many problems with incompatibilities do you run into with VB, depending upon whether you have the latest version and the right libraries, etc.?  JAVA set a standard - until MS destroyed it.


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 74

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 9:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

This is a response to Ted’s post #50 on another thread. 


My reference to nefarious Confucianist plots was in response to Phil Osbourne. He seemed to be implying that since the Mandarin system of buraeucrats required one to study Confucius, and that since the Mandarin dialect was named by westerners for these bureaucrats, that somehow some sort of ideological mischief, in furtherance of some secret plot by followers of Confucius, was bein perpetrated by the fact that Mandarin and not some other dialect is used as the stadard…


 

(Ted, you really ought to check your spelling.)

Now, as usual, Mr. Osbourne’s notion here is sheer absurdity, just as how he had demanded facts and historical accuracy from a Chinese fantasy movie. ;-)

 

You are not mistaken here. The Chinese system of bureaucrats originated from the Han dynasty (206 BC – 220), long before Beijing became the capital and Mandarin became the official spoken language. The major dynasties before Yuan (the Mongols) all had their capitals settled somewhere else: Xi’an (Han and Tang), Kaifeng (Song) and Nanjing (Southern Song). Surely the scholar-bureaucrats at court did not speak the Beijing dialect then!  Also, the written Chinese (Han characters) has been the same throughout China ever since it was unified under the First Emperor (Qin). So scholars from all over the country who entered the officiadom through the Imperial Examination system were not hampered by their dialects. In fact, the regions around the eastern Yangtze river, not Beijing or Northern China, had a long standing tradition even to this day to produce more scholar-officials than any other areas in China.

 

The influence of traditional Chinese system of bureaucrats and the standard examination has not abated in Chinese culture today, even though the system itself has long been abandoned. If you wonder why there are so many over-achieving Chinese American kids in US, you'll find your explanation there.

 

Now, really getting back to the topic of this thread, I recommend JJ Tuan’s article “Objectivism in China”.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 3/06, 9:21am)


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 75

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
     Historical Mandarin's relevence to Chinese culture and MS/DOS' history in America's computer-culture...all in the same thread!

     Where else but in RoR can one find these fascinating parallel discussions?

LLAP
J:D


Post 76

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
My apologies for any misspellings. Indeed, Phil's last name is Osborn, so we (Hong and I) both owe him one on that. Let me give two lame excuses. First, the gee key on my keyboard is broken, and often either fails to register, or double registers. I have not been willing to part with my computer long enough to have this rectified as of yet. This causes the large majority of errors. Also, I have access to expensive-dialup or public wifi but no broadband service at my current location. Many posts and much other online activity will time-out on me. I usually compose on line, and often allow posts with minor misspellings to stand as is, rather than take the extra 1-2 hours per night that might be needed for me to wait to see my edits. In general, I hope my posts are enough worth reading to excuse the occasionally misplaced gee.

Post 77

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
News on China (vs. the U.S.):

First, China:

From the L.A. Times, March 5, 2007, a front page article continues on page 4 regarding China's "reeducation" system.  As the half page article details, over 200,000 Chinese are currently serving time for such crimes as having the wrong name, annoying someone in power, trying to sue the wrong party, going after the wrong girl, or running afoul of a cop just after he's had a fight with his wife. 

The China-wide system allows the police to incarcerate and use for slave labor anyone they choose, at any time, without a judge or jury or appeal process, theoretically for a maximum of four years.  However, as one unfortunate victim found out when he tried to sue the authorities after one three year sentence, they can throw you right back in for another term.

Even though this "laojiao" system, which has been in place for decades, is completely illegal under the Chinese constitution, the police are so powerful, and so much graft money is tied up in blackmailing families of prisoners, who get a piece of bread per day to eat and are mercilessly beaten on a daily basis unless someone outside pays the police to stop, that the political will has never been there to outlaw the system.

On the same page 4, the top half of the page was devoted to "China announces military budget hike."  It is estimated that the real Chinese military budget is currently running at as much as 200 billion dollars, almost half of that of the U.S., excluding the direct expenses of the Iraq war.

On NPR's "This I believe" earlier this week, a former Chinese national stated that his belief is that people are inherently brutal, based on his experience living in China. 

Now, the U.S.:

Yes, people,, similar things happen in the U.S.  I personally rescued several people from certain police brutality as a cab driver part time in the mid-80's in the OC, simply by refusing to leave the scene, on the grounds that I had a legitimate business relationship with the victim - being their cabbie.

It was typical for the Santa Ana cops, especially, to beat up anyone who annoyed them, and you could assume that half of any valuables or money would disappear from lockup by the time you were released.  And, heaven forfend being caught on the Santa Ana streets late at night "walking while black." 

In theory, a person is deemed innocent under U.S. law until convicted of a crime.  In practice, "innocent" arrestees are treated like vermin and virtually any kind of abuse, including murder or rape, are tolerated in American jails.

In theory, in the U.S., the cops must have probable cause to believe that the arrestee actually commited a crime to make an arrest.  In fact, it is common to plant evidence, especially drugs, or to arrest a travelling salesman, for example, who can't afford to wait for a trial, and then plea bargain to a minor charge in order to get a confession to a string of local burglaries.  Even tho the guy may not even have been in the state when the crimes were committed, he confesses to get out of jail and survive economically, while the police then write up "crime solved" on the burglaries.

In theory, any person in the U.S. - and not just citizens, BTW - must be given a speedy trial or released, as guaranteed by the Constitution. In practice, low income and minority arrestees are intimidated into waiving that right, or assigned a public defender who has 500 other cases on his desk, who waives it for the defendant, and then forgets about them, or simply pleads guilty for them without their agreement. 

Thousands of such people have spent years in jail, having never been tried, much less convicted of any actual crime.  Their "attorney" simply doesn't return calls, and they are typically illiterate or mentally deficient enough to be unable to make any headway on their own.  So they sit and rot for five years - or more - for a charge that would have produced a $50 fine, if it ever went to court.

The U.S. also has a higher percentage - and a higher actual count - of its population in prison than any other country in the world, including even China!  (Although, China executes a lot more...  However, a LOT of people die in U.S. prisons or later from having contracted AIDS or hepatitus from being raped in prison.)

Chinese authorities routinely sieze land from farmers without compensation to be used by whatever developer has offered them the best bribe. 

In the U.S., the Supreme Court upheld the right of cities to use eminent domain to sieze private property for commercial use.

The differences are of degree, not kind, and the only real advantage the U.S. has is its Western heritege of objectivity.  One of the victims of the laojiao is quoted as follows:

"They can five you several years at the stroke of a pen, or decide to beat you if they had a bad fight with their wife, and that's it.  In a word, we need human rights.  Without human rights, we have nothing."

And the form of his statement itself illustrates the exact problem facing China.  He doesn't NEED human rights. He already has them.  Human rights are inherent in being a human being.  As the U.S. under Bush moves steadily toward a position - as exemplified by its attitude and behavior toware foreign nationals - that rights are granted to people by states, let us hope and work toward a philosophical revolution in China that brings the realization that states should only exist to promote the preexisting human rights (if then - speaking as an anarchist), not the other way around.

Of course, without objectivity, rights are impossible to define and the whole concept dissolves.  Lacking objectivity, one has to turn to power. 


Post 78

Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 11:57pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Actually a pretty good post, Phil [sorry, Osborn detractors!  ;-)].

You've apparently got a head on your shoulders (said in some contrast to other, shared sentiments here).

Ed


Post 79

Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 6:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
If you're going to have a president, then you might as well have one that's at least entertaining.

So - Powell and Rice?  Would that be an fun ticket or what?  I mean besides the fact that Condi is a true Major Babe - and still single!

However, the real reason I'm posting is a quote from Condi - who I have had the hots for for some years now, in case she's reading this - connected with the State Dept.'s release of its human rights report for the previous year:

"Too often in the past year we received painful reminders that human rights, though self-evident, are not self-enforcing." (emphasis mine)

Wow.

Is this an indication that Condi is about to split with Bush, following Powell's example of yeilding to principle?  I was worried, frankly, that if and when my relationship with Condi ever transpired, I would have to travel to some Federal or International Court of Justice prison for conjugal visits.  I suppose that could still be in the cards - and I think she might just be worth the effort regardless, as I'm not after her money, which would be presumeably paid out to the tens of thousands of victims of the current administration, along with Bush's oil millions and Cheney's ill-gotten Haliburten gains.

Anyway, I thought it serendipidous (sp?) that Condi should make her statement of principle on the heels of my last post in this thread.  The world occasionaly does deliver these pleasant surprises, after all.  Now if she can live up to her words...

YOU GO, CONDI!


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.