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Post 20

Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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Scientific Vocabulary

Hong's comment that she had no problem with such primaries as weight, mass, force, etc in Chinese does not surprise me. These concepts are mostly expressed by one-morpheme roots in English, and Chinese, as an "isolating" language uses mostly single morpheme words as well. A morpheme is the smallest meaningful unit of speech into which a word can be broken down serially. "Unwanted" is one word with three morphemes (un-want-ed) only the second of which can stand on its own. It is a free morpheme, the "un-" and "-ed" are bound morphemes. Some English words cannot be broken down so, such as cranberry or women. There is no such thing as a cran, so cranberry is usually described as one morpheme, even though one would like to separate out -berry. Likewise, one cannot separate out such irregular plurals as women, mice, or geese. These words are treated as single morphemes, even though they combine the sense of the root with the plural number. In English, such cases are marginal. In Latin and Greek, almost every noun and verb behaves this way, homo, hominis; gune, gunaika where the inflected words cannot easily be seperated into root and suffix. While in Chinese, almost every syllable is a morpheme that can potentially stand on its own.

Hongs' complaint about the vagaries of chemistry, with its many derivative endings, like -ide, -ite, -ane, -ene, -ate, -ol, etc., is a complaint that most English speaking students share. (Most of these endings are Latin adjectival endings that have been pressed into service in modern times and which only get their meaning within a scientific context from sheer convention. Knowing Latin doesn't help with organic chemistry or with oxidation states of inorganic ions.)

Indeed, none of the modern European languages ever was the language of science. Scientific vocabulary and derivational endings have always come from the classical Greek and Latin, even when the form was actually Arabic or English, as in algorithm or potassium (the second comes from English "pot ash" the term used was Latinized). Nowadays we use the English language to speak about terms whose ultimate origins are classical.

In biology, many fascinating new archeological finds from the age of the Cambrian (540 MYA) when complex animals first became dominant in the oceans, and the age of the dinosaurs, when birds arose, are being made in Chinese fossil beds. Here is an image of the Cretaceous waterfowl Gansus yumensis, literally goose from Yumen. (Or possibly Yu Me) Gansus is a Latinate root (goose), -ensis a Latin ending. Chinese fossils typically get Chinese names with quasi-latin endings, or species names such as sinensis which is literally the latin word corresponding to the anglo-norman "Chinese."

The only reason that English is widely used as the language of science is that it already has the largest scientific literature and community in existence. This is a cultural, not a linguistic phenomenon. While English grammar is not particularly difficult, English spellings and pronunciations are quite irregular and harder to grasp compared to almost any other existent modern language. But there is nothing inherently superior in English itself, other than its already dominant position as the world lingua franca.

Any concept expressed in one language can ultimately be expressed in another language, if one makes the effort and strictly defines one's terms. The connotations of certain words may be different in different languages, such as the connotation of black as a color for mourning in the West, when many Eastern cultures choose white for that purpose. But this is of more importance when one is translating literature than in scientific studies.

Ted Keer
(Edited by Ted Keer
on 2/15, 8:03pm)


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Post 21

Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 1:59pmSanction this postReply
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Chris Baker: "Of course, this is why I am firmly convinced that all copyrights should die the exact moment that the author dies."

Chris, this implies that you do accept the validity of copyright, the purpose of which is to reward both the author for his effort and the audience with his product. If copyright were to end upon the death of the author, how would old or terminally ill people negotiate to get published? Steven Jay Gould's treatise on biology was published posthumously. Both of Orianna Fallaci's final works were published as she lay dying from lung cancer. What publisher would have wasted the effort in printing these works if they could be pirated as soon as they were published?

Likewise, the bodies of posthumous works by Rand and Tolkien are quite large. The Making of Middle Earth Series is twelve volumes long. Tolkien's Silmarilion and Untold Tales were also posthumous. Would it be better if no posthumous works were published? And what about the movie rights to those books?

I can see disagreeing with the current excessively long intellectual property monopolies which mainly benefit such conglomerates as Disney, and the congressmen who received campaign donations from such conglomerates. But I see no principle discernable behind your stand.

Ted

Post 22

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 2:48pmSanction this postReply
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I could speak long and hard on the difficulties of introducing objectivism to China.  So far, during the 46 years since I read "Atlas Shrugged," I have met exactly one Chinese - from mainland China - person who actually had read and understood Rand.  I've also worked for a Chinese/Taiwanese company for 16 years, doing their 1500+ page website since '98, so I have a lot of personal experience to rely upon.

The unique contribution of the West to humanity could be summarized in the term "objectivity."  From Aristotle to the Germanic tribes and the common law, there is a tradition of respecting facts as existing independent of desire, fear - or particular observer, which led the West to develop objectively based judicial systems, democracy, and the scientific method.

The rest of the world, including China, never got that concept.  The Japanese have made perhaps the most progress in integrating objectivity into their language and culture, and they may very well ultimately surpass the West in that respect, as they have a definite talent for taking good ideas from other cultures and running with them.

As for China, the ruling princicple of Chinese culture is "if you have power you can get anything; if you lack power, you will lose everything."  The success of the West, economically, technologically, etc., can largely be attributed to its ability - with many fits and starts, to be sure - to subsume power within objective principle, as in the U.S. Constitution, with its checks and balances.  Far from perfect, but still a major step forward.

China, in contrast, has, as major philosophical input on a practical level, "The Art of War," the "Thirty-Six (meaning, "many") Strategies," and "Thick Black Theory," all of which make Machievelli look like a rank amateur.  The focus is on the most ruthless tactics by which one acquires power.

Because of this, facts are secondary, to be manipulated and rewritten as needed to reflect the power aspirations.  The scary part is that there is an ever-present inclination to feed information to one's superior that makes the superior look good, accurate or not.  This was responsible for the various Five Year Plan disasters that killed 50 million people or more within China, and also explains how a top Chinese fighter pilot would collide with a U.S. spy plane.  Now apply that disastrous positive feedback loop to nuclear weapons capability...

I would like to see some discussion about social/philosophical technology by which we could turn China around in this respect, if for no other reason than I don't want to be on the receiving end of a nuclear exchange born out of faulty epistemology on their end.  I'm leaning strongly in the direction of an explicit general social contract.


Post 23

Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 9:06pmSanction this postReply
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>The unique contribution of the West to humanity could be summarized in the term "objectivity." 

Hmm, I'd say that the monotheist religion is the unique contribution of the West to humanity. ;-)

Plenty of Chinese philosophical and cultural wisdoms emphasize on "objectivity". For example, one of the "36 strategies" is "know your enemy; know yourself; you will not lose in a hundred battles".

> facts are secondary (to Chinese)...

No. Objective facts are just as important in Chinese people's thinking as anybody else. Furthermore, Chineses are particularly keen on the contextual truth of some of the so-called facts. 



Post 24

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 2:14amSanction this postReply
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Westerners have known the notorious "Thick Black Theory"! China always provides the world with junks.

In 1910s, a Chinese writer Li Zongwu wrote a book which aimed to expose the dirty tricks used by various persons to gain power. He summarized these trickes as two general aspects: "thick faces" (shamelessness) and "black hearts" (cruelty). The author himself didn't want his book to become a textbook of trickes. But due to the influence of the pathological Chinese culture, Li's book have been widely used as a book that teaches trickes, especially the ways of sacrificing others for oneself. After Li, various books that taught dirty trickes had been issued, and the "thick-black-ology" came forth. 

"Thick-black-ology" is not the source of immorality, but the product of existing immorality.   


Post 25

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 8:11amSanction this postReply
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Also, it is a great distortion to say that "Thick Black Theory" is a major Chinese philosophy. It is nothing nearly as mainstream as Sun Tze (The Art of War). And it is viewed by those Chineses who are aware of its existence as very negative aspects of the society, just as how it was intended.
(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/18, 8:25am)


Post 26

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 3:45pmSanction this postReply
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Reply to Hong Zhang: I beg to differ.  I have had many good relationships with the many Chinese employees where I work, and I find much to admire in Chinese culture.  However, at one point - just to illustrate my point - the Jesuits went to Beijing and attempted to sell the court on the idea of a Copernican cosmology.  They had the best evidence and argument available at the time, and indeed, reportedly the issue was taken seriously and debated furiously for some time, after which the Emporer decided it was incorrect and all the people who had taken the incorrect side were executed. My understanding is that this sequence of events actually repeated again some decades later, with the exact same result.

More recently, when Hong Kong was incorporated into the mainland political dominion, a story was related on mainstream news about a statue that had been erected in tribute to a man who had for generations been held as a traitor.  It seeems that he was responsible for the war that enabled the Brits to take over Hong Kong.  This happened when he received orders directly from the Emporer to attack the Europeans.  However, between the time of the transmittal of the orders and his attack, the Emporer died.

His attack turned out to be a disaster, resulting in the treaty that gave the Brits Hong Kong.  However, he was blamed, not for the disater itself, but for the fact that he was not authorized to attack, as the orders became invalid when the Emporer died, even though he had no way of knowing this.

So, I think he was executed, and his entire extended family was exiled to a remote province and lived in dishonor and poverty, even extending through the Mao years and right up to the point that Hong Kong reverted to mainland rule, at which point he suddenly became a hero for having resisted the European Imperialism.

This kind of Orwellian behavior is unfortunately endemic, and I could easilly give a hundred additional examples without doing any research.  Where I work, the company president's son can do any kind of absurd thing that costs the company all sorts of money, but because of his status, the General Manager, who is theoretically his boss, cannot criticize him, and in fact has to make up some fable that will exonerate the Number 1 Son.

The same issues of nepotism, cronyism, SNAFUs (like the Iranian revolution, which EVERYONE knew was happening except the U.S. State Dept., because they had set up a feedback loop that kept telling them what they wanted to hear) occur in the West.  However, Westerners consider them to be failures and anomolies, indicating that the system must be examined and fixed.

As far as "Thick Black Theory" is concerned, my information comes from the cover article a decade or so ago of "Success" magazine, and the interview with the Chinese author of "Thick Face, Black Heart," which was another retake on the original, but in English (which I read).  So far as I know, BTW, TBT itself has never been translated into English.  Neither have most of the "36 Strategies," although I found a collection of them some years ago.  All the ones in the collection emphasized various methods of deception as means to controlling other people.

Then there is the standing Chinese joke that the first of the "36 Strategies" is to RUN!  According to the author of "TFBH", the study was of ordinary people who had risen to power and wealth.  The author simply wanted to discover what traits led to success in Chinese culture, and then reported this in the book.  She also claimed that TBT was read by virtually all military and business students in China.

(Edited by Phil Osborn on 2/18, 3:54pm)


Post 27

Sunday, February 18, 2007 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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femino,

=================
"In 1910s, a Chinese writer Li Zongwu wrote a book which aimed to expose the dirty tricks used by various persons to gain power. He summarized these trickes as two general aspects: "thick faces" (shamelessness) and "black hearts" (cruelty). The author himself didn't want his book to become a textbook of trickes. But due to the influence of the pathological Chinese culture, Li's book have been widely used as a book that teaches trickes, especially the ways of sacrificing others for oneself. After Li, various books that taught dirty trickes had been issued, and the "thick-black-ology" came forth.

"Thick-black-ology" is not the source of immorality, but the product of existing immorality."
=================

One way to look at the evil in the world is with a "don't ask - don't tell" philosophy. This philosophy is prominent in religious sects, for example, who attempt to cover up or wash-away the sexually-deviant behaviors of their otherwise-pious patrons or leaders.

Another way to look at the evil in the world is to study it; to learn about it -- and, in learning about it, one makes it possible to confront and battle the evil as it takes its various forms. On this view, books about how it is that folks can and are evil -- are helpful books, serving to arm the populace against myriad transgressions.

An example of this other way to look at the evil in the world is found in a book entitled: The Art of Deception, by Nicholas Capaldi. In this book, the author outlines all of the various ways that folks misuse speech in order to get over on their fellow man (instead of using speech as a method of understanding and collaboratively arriving at truth).

The Art of Deception is a great book to have, because it allows you to hold others accountable for the things they say (instead of falling victim to their word-play).

In this sense, books like The Prince and The Art of War do humanity a service -- they show folks how not to allow themselves to be led by power-lusting others in the world.

Ed

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Post 28

Monday, February 19, 2007 - 8:53amSanction this postReply
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>Neither have most of the "36 Strategies,"

I really don't know what you are talking about. If you go to any Borders or B&N bookstores, there are a least two or three different versions of English translation of Sun Tze's The Art of War.

And the first (or the highest) of the "36 Strategies" ("RUN") is not a joke. It is about the supreme wisdom of knowing when to retreat.

Frankly, most of what you write about what you perceive as Chinese characteristics just doesn't make sense to me. You talk about "The Art of War" and "Thick Black Theory", but it appears you haven't read either of them, nor understand them.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/19, 10:33am)


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Post 29

Monday, February 19, 2007 - 3:38pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Osborn, whatever the ills of Chinese culture are (and many probably do exist) your above posts contain such superficial sets of examples (like mentioning the fact that you don't like your boss's son) and poorly formulated logic that I can only I come to the conclusion that you aren't qualified to discuss this subject.  

You aren't alone.  Lots of Objectivists (including many Objectivist "leaders") these days think that these kinds of broad brush arguments give them the right to talk about huge collective groups of people in a disdainful, self righteous manner.

 
 - Jason


Post 30

Monday, February 19, 2007 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
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Chris, this implies that you do accept the validity of copyright, the purpose of which is to reward both the author for his effort and the audience with his product.
The purpose is to reward the author, not heirs or hangers-on.
If copyright were to end upon the death of the author, how would old or terminally ill people negotiate to get published?
If a publisher wants to take the risk, the publisher is free to do so.
What publisher would have wasted the effort in printing these works if they could be pirated as soon as they were published?
It would probably be the same ones who publish Aristotle's or Mark Twain's works. If there is a market, the works will get out there. They will get out there even if it just means getting them on a web site.

Go down to Barnes and Noble and check the "Barnes and Noble classics." These are all works that are in the public domain. There is an incentive to publish them.
Would it be better if no posthumous works were published?
For reasons above, this is a very silly question. I certainly have higher expectations from you.
And what about the movie rights to those books?
What about them?
I can see disagreeing with the current excessively long intellectual property monopolies which mainly benefit such conglomerates as Disney, and the congressmen who received campaign donations from such conglomerates. But I see no principle discernable behind your stand.
There is certainly no principle behind the current system. If copyrights should outlive authors, then why not make them last for all eternity?

A copyright is not a tangible thing. Tangible things are a car, a house, a share of Exxon stock, or an ounce of gold. A copyright is a contract between a person and a government. It is a creation of law for the benefit of the creator in order to encourage and protect creativity. The author does not benefit in any way from having the copyright outlive him by even a single day.


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Post 31

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 10:49amSanction this postReply
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Chris: An alternative to copyright would be for an author to publish a certain number of books at his own expense and contract with each customer so that he could read it but it must be returned or kept under lock and key so that no one else could divine the contents. The reader would not be allowed to quote from the book  — in essence, it would be secret but he could praise it or condemn it in a general way. The book could be discussed only among those who had a similar agreement. The author could pass the copies on to his heirs who could do the same thing.

Do you think that this would do anyone any good compared to copyrighting?


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Post 32

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 8:49pmSanction this postReply
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Yet another uninformed diatribe follows:  (I note in passing that somehow stupid, uninformed, talking through his hat, Phil, was the person to call attention to tip of the iceberg of evidence - "Thick, Black Theory, etc." - that Chinese culture is basically lacking in any moral foundation, which follows from the dominance of power over reason in every aspect of said culture.  China makes the U.S. look GREAT, by comparison. I do apologize, however, to anyone who was offended by the fact that I didn't fully polish my arguments as much as I would have liked to...  Ran out of time again.  Sorry.)

One of the most common of all characteristically Chinese cultural traits is the inability to tolerate criticizm of anything Chinese by a non-Chinese.  In the 16 years during which I have worked daily with Chinese coworkers and bosses, this has been practically universal among the over one hundred Chinese nationals I've known, both at work and elsewhere (Irvine, California has one of the largest concentrations of ethnic Chinese outside of China).

We Americans, on the other hand, are known around the world for our eagerness in seeking out blame, guilt, etc., to pile on our own heads.  It has been noted time and again how mystified the rest  of the world has been about America's guilt complex.  I suppose that part of it is real enough - the various acts of theft from native Americans and Imperialism abroad, slavery, etc., but, in reality,  if you look at how other cultures fare on those very issues, it is clear that America is on the low side of the scale in guiltiness, while in terms of accomplishments, intellectual, artistic, technological and social, there is hardly any competition.  So, BRING IT ON!  We LOVE criticism.  We know that when we stop listening to it, THEN we are in deep trouble.  WE know that objective reality will win so long as information is free and and we can test it against the facts.

Then we have the great and venerable China, a country that executes thousands of its citizens yearly for the most petty of crimes in order to harvest their organs, that smuggles worthless dextrose and talcum pills by the billions into other nations - and also China itself - passing them off as cancer or AIDS drugs, or sells children's cough syrup using ethylene glycol because they ran out of ethyl alcohol (resulting in at least 80 known deaths in just on Caribbean country - and zero prosecutions), that has no enemies waiting to invade its borders, but spends hundreds of billions on "defense," - and I could go on for a dozen more screens, easily, with material that can be easily referenced to major news sources - is a country that is DESPERATELY in need of severe, continuous, strenuous, unremitting, merciless, CRITICIZM. 

Naturally, however, since the failure to learn the concept of objectivity is at the heart of all the other problems in Chinese culture, the LAST  thing that most Chinese want to hear is criticism of anything Chinese.  The prognosis is not good.


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Post 33

Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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Mr. Osborn: a personal rant does not equal to a fact based and logically argued criticism.


Post 34

Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 8:43pmSanction this postReply
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I was going to get one of my Chinese co-workers to show me the ideograms that would mean "red-haired face-eating Demon," so that I could use it as my identifier here, but I was too busy and forgot.  Maybe tomorrow...

The L.A. Times recently ran a large, several page article on corruption in China.  Note that I have feelings regarding this, but will carefully avoid mentioning them lest they somehow invalidate the facts and logic.  According to the Times article, Chinese parents are essentially playing Russian Roulette every time they go to the supermarket to purchase baby food, as something on the order of 25% of the "Similac" type liquid milk substitute sold in large and small markets in China is nothing by dextrose, starch, and flavoring, packaged to look like and appear to be nutritious food.

Meanwhile, a flood of rich Westerners as well as neuvo-rich Chinese are buying new livers and kidneys and virtually every other body part at cut-rate prices, due to all the executions.  The part that these people really need, of course, is a new brain, as there is no guarantee whatsoever that that kidney might not have come from someone with AIDS or hepatitus or malignant cancer, etc.  Speaking of which, the ongoing AIDS epidemic in China was created by unscrupulous medical personnel pooling blood purchased from obvious drug addicts with all the other blood and then infecting tens of thousands with it.

Last year I read the xlnt best-selling "China, Inc.," in which the author heaps praise on China's incredible economic growth - or so it would seem to the casual reader.  Anyone with more familiarity with Chinese culture would recognize when he words something very carefully to avoid killing his welcome in China while not outright lieing.  For example, he discusses in passing the reported use of special regional dialects of Mandarin in order to perpetrate deception in business.

What he does not discuss is the underlying role of the Mandarin language in general for thousands of years in perpetuating a top-down authoritarian power structure.  The Confucian system, as practiced in the Middle Kingdom, had multiple grades or levels thru which students could progress, thereby assuring them positions in the bureaucratic hierarchy of the autocratic state.

The standardized testing was largely aimed at the memorization of classic texts of literature, poetry, history or philosophy.  As one memorized more, one advanced - or had that potential.  In theory this was supposed to guarantee good or at least intelligent rulers, on average.  However, out of this structure grew a secondary technology.

The secondary information technology of the Confucian/Mandarin system was the use of phrases and allusions to specific historical or artistic points.  A "Mandarin" of a certain level could say one thing explicitly to someone lower down in the hierarchy, knowing that the other Mandarins in earshot, or reading it, who were at a sufficient level of scholarship, would understand that he was saying just the opposite - or something entirely orthogonal - as in (a purely made up example) (explicitly) "You are such a wonderful example of honesty, open like a daisy in the sun,"  where the term for the flower actually referenced something in a history text about a fool who talked too openly and jeapardized the Emporer, and who therefore, it is suggested should be summarily executed.

Thus, a vertical culture of power, in which each level could communicate securely with its own, but was at the mercy of the level above it, was encouraged.

It is useful to contrast this with the historical structure of the Japanese language, in which it was virtually impossible to address someone as an equal.  The various forms of address implied that the other was either a superior or an inferior.  Imagine two samuraiis meeting.  Anything they say could be taken as grounds for a fight!  Thus, the tea ceremonies, etc., and the use of a 3rd party of clearly lower status, who would take the words spoken by one and repeat them to the other.  I.e., this required communication between levels of power.

There are many other factors, of course, involved, but the net result of these various cultural factors (such as the primogeniture system of inheritance that tended to concentrate wealth, while the Chinese inheritance system dissipated it, dicussed at some length in Fukuyama's "Trust," which I HIGHLY recommend) led to China becoming one of the all-time low-trust societies of the world, while Japan is close to the top in general interpersonal trust.

Like any big problem, this is potentially a HUGE market opportunity, of course, for whomever finds a solution.  As I mentioned somewhere here, my inclination is toward an explicit social contract.  If some organization began signing people up to a system of dispute resolution which was properly organized so that everyone could see that it was fair and transparent, something similar in unbiased objectivity to the old common law court system, but streamlined with cost-effective procedures and professional arbitrars, bonding, insurance, and a host of selling features that completely outclassed the expensive, slow, corrupt state court systems, then - simply because the problem is SO bad there, China might actually forge ahead of the entire world.

There's a potential historical parallel in the German military experience, as discussed in Joseph C. Harsch's, "Pattern of Conquest."  In WWI, the German military was thoroughly defeated, and, in the process, its many weaknesses were exposed.  The consequence - quite independent of the rise of Hitler and the Nazis - was that the Germans systematically reexamined and reengineered literally every aspect of the WehrMacht.

The result of the devastating German defeat, then, was the creation of the world's best fighting force, man for man outclassing anything else by something like ten to one.  If it had been a slightly more rational regime running Germany, WWII would have been over in months and there would have been a united Europe, with Germany at the fore.  As it happened, of course, the NAZI idiots took everything the WehrMacht handed them and destroyed any value in it, as Harsch describes in detail.
 
However, the Germans almost took over the world because they listened to criticism.  They identified and studied their mistakes.  They systematically dismantled the rigid top-down power structure of the old WehrMacht and trained their grunts to think for themselves.  They reexamined their whole philosophy of how to conduct war.  Instead of the harvest of death of the WWI trenches, the WehrMacht determined to reduce actual violence and destruction to an absolute minimum.  Instead of raping the women in a captured village, they called a town meeting and provided milk for the children.

I'm not defending the German invasion of their neighbors.  I'm just pointing out that they achieved an incredible level of effectiveness BECAUSE, in that area - their military - they had a total commitment to objectivity, and thus welcomed critique.



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Post 35

Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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Subject: Civility, Once Again

" you aren't qualified to discuss this subject"..."a disdainful, self righteous manner"..."a personal rant"

Why do Oists keep using language like the above in purely intellectual disagreements? Do they use it to address their bosses or their co-workers in their office in regard to a business issue...and how long would they hold those jobs if they did?

Jason and Hong, the above language (and sweeping dismissal) in responding to Phil Osborn's views of China with which you strongly disagree is inappropriate and distracting from a discussion over the validity of his points. Whether he is right or wrong or partly right, he didn't simply post a 'rant'. He offered arguments and books to back it up. Nor is it fair to dismiss a strong criticism of China by saying it's "disdainful" or to speculate arbitrarily on whether or not someone is "qualified" in lieu of answering the actual arguments he presents.

This is the sort of thing that leads to a cycle of personal attacks, and tends to lead to the endless Objectivist food fights that we have seen over the last several years on all the websites. It would be better to simply point out in detail where you think he' s wrong in a polite, civil, respectful manner. No matter how strongly his ideas arouse your emotions. If your criticisms are devastating, that should be sufficient. And it makes for a more worthwhile discussion for readers.




(And *PLEASE* don't write a rebuttal in which you argue that he started it or he deserved it, or the equivalent.)

(Edited by Philip Coates
on 2/22, 12:09pm)


Post 36

Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 12:15pmSanction this postReply
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Moreover, Mr. Osborn is obviously well-read, has had some interesting experiences and offers some thought-provoking insights and comparisons with other situations (such as the Germany example about the Wehrmacht).

Do you really want to chase away intelligent, thoughtful people from discussion with this sort of contemptuous dismissal that doesn't even engage his points in any detail?

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Post 37

Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,
Before your launch on a lecture to Jason and me, and claim that we are "distracting from a discussion over the validity of his points", have you see for yourself what exactly are Mr. Osborn's points? And can you find any logical connection between his long posts and his "points"?

> Nor is it fair to dismiss a strong criticism of China

Neither Jason nor me dismiss criticism of China.  But I absolutely dismiss anyone who do not distinguish the Communist Chinese government from Chinese culture and Chinese people. And I will not waste my time to discuss the nuance and subtlety of Mandarin with somebody who does not speak or read Chinese. Nor will I discuss Sun Tze with somebody who would lumber "The art of war" with "Thick Black Theory". Period. Unlike you, I don't mud-wrestle.

Post 38

Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 5:41pmSanction this postReply
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> can you find any logical connection between his long posts and his "points"?

Hong, even if he made zero points you find logical that's no reason to be uncivil.

Post 39

Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 5:54pmSanction this postReply
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Phil, I've seen you write a million posts similar to the one I wrote above. In fact that is the style of post I see from you most often.

You actually tend to be right when you write those, even if you are kind of annoying at the same time. Are you uncivil when you write things like that or is it only uncivil when Hong and I do it? Actually we were very mild in our criticism and very "civil" about dismissing his arguments.

- Jason

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