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Post 60

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 2:13pmSanction this postReply
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Jon, how about mid-July? My condescension is limitless...

Post 61

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 6:48pmSanction this postReply
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Oh please!

I'm filled with suspense but beginning to suspect I'll be disappointed in my quest to perfect my understanding of sophistry and deciete.

I've missed a calling of politician or lawyer.

Scott

Post 62

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 7:09pmSanction this postReply
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Answer in about an hour (I willl post it, and whether anyone has won the grand prize, after I've gone out to eat)...

...My hints of post #24 and post #58 were entirely unhelpful?

Post 63

Monday, April 17, 2006 - 9:59pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry guys, this will have to be tomorrow. I'm too tired from the festivities tonight to do it justice and the answer has to be expressed precisely.

Post 64

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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There seems to be some type of logical disjunction and I see the "no true Scotsman" thing in some of the O'ist foodfights, but I'm unsure if that would apply to the Googleley dude because of the way he phrased his sentence backwards.  He is, however, attributing the trait of arrogance to doing business, seems to be a package deal.  Anyway, the Easter Bunny was right.  The answer doesn't address the criticism.

Kat


Post 65

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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Here is the answer, finally:

I have observed countless arguments in which the discussion is supposedly on one point but gets changed into a discussion which is not precisely on the same subject. One way to do this is to blatantly start talking about something else, to -directly- change the subject. Raise an entirely irrelevant topic (or maybe a side topic that might require its own discussion, go off on a tangent for example -- that happens a lot...and many Oist threads do this.)

But what about a more subtle way of changing the subject, just via wording, by connotation, by language itself? Hijacking a discussion, deflecting attention from the precise discussion which had previously been engaged in? What about indirectly or more subtly altering the discussion simply by using "slanted" language, words or statements?

In other words: Changing the subject by slanting the language.

Let me explain: In the original post of this thread, Google's CEO responded to the criticism that he shouldn't knuckle under to Chinese censorship by saying, "I think it's arrogant for us to walk into a country where we are just beginning to operate and tell that country how to operate."

First remove the slanted, emotionally negative words 'arrogant' (and even 'walk into' which has a slight connotation of presumptiousness). These are indeed examples of slanting or using biased, non-objective language. But the more subtle case is when he cast the argument in terms of "telling a country how to operate". Other posters in this thread have pointed out the illegitimacy of shifting a discussion of censorship to one of the vague and fuzzy term "operate".

But what I want to point out is the -result- of doing this: Intentional or not, he switches the discussion entirely from the word "censorship" to the much broader and fuzzier concept he wants to substitute in your mind: "operate". He is trying to remove the original, very precise concept of censorship from your mind. This is similar to those who advocate speech codes on campus who want to focus on whether or not certain speech "offends" or causes "emotional harm" by insulting someone's religion, etc.

The thinking (and analytical and debating) error here is that a legitimate, properly defined, crucial issue which needed to be pursued in *exactly the context and language in which it was originally formulated* has been hijacked and the focus has been changed to something (or in this case someone) else. In your eagerness to swat down each and every issue that is raised, if you swallow the bait and start talking about whether a country has the right to be free from external interference or not be told how to "operate" or whether the U.S. should get involved in policing the world...or whether someone on campus hearing critical remarks is emotionally injured, you are committing a major thinking mistake. Assuming you have not yet finished doing so, you are allowing the subject you need to prove, to drive home to be taken away from you.

So the Googler changed the subject by selecting language people would be more sympathetic to. Most Americans would say you don't have the right to walk in and "tell someone else how to operate" because they don't distinguish what kind of operation. This is an example of using slanted language to move people's minds away from the topic and from intellectual precision.

Is this done frequently? All the time. Is it a minor thinking error? No. We will see how the same mistake is made by Objectivists...on this very board, on SoloP, on Noodlefood, on the old OWL, and so on.

In my next post.

Post 66

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
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Changing the subject by slanting the language.

The crudest form of this is readily seen on the more heated and thus longer threads on Oist websites. It can also be seen everywhere in the world today, in debates between liberals and conservatives, in disputes between factions within religions and in university academic departments. It is simply using slanted language to undercut someone or his record or approach. We've all seen the frequent use of words such as evader, dishonest, appeaser to question someone's moral character. Or "arrogant, rationalistic, unwilling to examine" to question someone's methodology. Or most extreme, outright insult which have no cognitive content, such as "go to hell", or "asshole."

Each of these words is a heavily slanted word, carrying a negative emotional impact, and influencing anyone who simply accepts the word as accurate to disapprove of the person or side so labelled.

Slanted language substitutes loaded words for actual arguments. Here is a blatant logic text example: "The senator bad-mouthed the institution and shouted down his opponents." Instantly, as you read this, you feel disapproval or negative emotions toward the senator. And yet no actual argument has been made and no real proof offered. Stacked verbiage has been substituted for an argument or a detailed description of what happened.

[ As an exercise, can someone recast this into neutral, non-emotionalist, non-loaded language? ]

A crucial distinction: If a poster or thinker or writer or speaker had *as his subject* to criticize a person or his methodology, it is possible that could be a valid discussion. Maybe Senator Blowhard is abusive, illogical, stupid, ill-informed, a bully, etc. And that might be a valid opinion piece or topic of discussion...although seldom as important a one as discussing the actual issues facing the nation, since ideas are more important than people as subjects, at least for intellectuals. (I did a post once about the dishonesty of the New York Times once. That was not a hijack since that was my original subject. And, assuming my evidence was good, it was not an ad hominem for the same reason. Similarly, if I claim that Oist writer X is an intrinsicist or rationalistic in his or her arguments, as long as that is my subject, it is legitimate to have as a separate and distinct subject the errors or flaws or bad methodology of a public figure.)

In a way the Google example is more intellectual and more high level that the posts of many Objectivists, because it doesn't use slanted language to hijack a topic by attacking a *person* (who will then switch to defending himself and counterattacking instead of focusing on the original topic), but to recast an entire *argument* by changing the language of its discussion.

But in all these cases, slanted language has been used to change a subject or to hijack a train of thought, a topic of discussion. And that is enormously common. You would think Oists would learn to monitor their thinking to avoid it. Some do, but not a sufficient number.

Continued in next post.



(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/18, 3:44pm)


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Post 67

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Professor Phil, 

You asked us to name the common logical fallacy that the quote illustrates. When you finally gave the answer, it was a name you made up yourself rather than what is usually in the textbooks.  Can you tell us which one of these on the Wikipedia list it comes closest to? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Logical_fallacies


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Post 68

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:03pmSanction this postReply
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~~ If there's any (as Katdaddy refers to re 'textbook'-listed, and presumably Phil is asking for an explicit identification about) 'fallacy'...I don't see it. That is, not an actual 'logical-argument' fallacy re Phil's quoteof Google's stated...'excuse.'

~~ Whatever China's telling Google to do, I see as beside the point. The point is what Google's accepting re China's conditions for operating in China's controlled area, and showing such in the quote which Phil is asking about.

~~ 'Loaded' terminology aside (which Phil seems to be working up to arguing about), Google has clearly made itself a sycophant in accepting China's (or, if the Yakuza had probs with Google in Japan, them also; then there's the Mafia relics in Sicily...and...) required conditions for mass (ergo, 'regulated') accessability there.

~~ An interesting thing about 'sycophants': they're always seen as mere remoras or leeches, and, for the most part, they are no more than that, as shown in history re Monarchs and other rulers; There's the obvious personal ones, but, also group/'faction' ones. However...I have no doubt that at some time or other most, if not all of them, in all past history and especially (international corporation - wise) now, whatever their reasons for currying favor by the obvious rulers of area-populace X, at some point see the potential at becoming a 'favored' sycophant, ergo, one who 'has the ear' of the ruler(s), ergo, one who can (eventually) 'influence' top decisions, ergo, one who can become the power-behind-the-throne. --- That smart rulers don't watch out for this seems rarely to be considered. I find THIS to be the 'fallacy' in Google's machinational ignoring of any 'rights'-to-free-speech re China.

~~ I see this, not a 'textbook' fallacy per se, so much as a bona-fide 'error-in-thinking', nevertheless, specifically tactically (as in Machiavelli or Sun Tzu ) as well as morally. An additional concern: Google is advertising to the world how UNimportant this 'right' of others is...to them; I would call this an operational 'fallacy' re the apparent short term benefits against the long term non-benefits.

LLAP
J:D

P.S: Phil: *Your* analysis is well put. Language slanting via avoiding 'controversied' terminology is a common (can we say 'PC'?)  tactic nowadays, but, I'm not sure where the idea of 'fallacy' plays there. Anyhoo, I thought my perspective is an alternative consideration re 'motive' for such verbal-tactics; and...they both definitely are mutually supporting...whatever fallacies involved.

(Edited by John Dailey on 4/18, 11:09pm)


Post 69

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:11pmSanction this postReply
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What Phil is talking about is changing the subject by 'You Too' Ad Hominen[sp?] attached as well. It's not just one fallacy, Phil, it's about three you can get from the quote. The closest is the red herring/changing the subject, then 'You Too' Ad Hominen, and possibly moral relativism as the third runner up.

-- Bridget

Post 70

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:14pmSanction this postReply
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense <-- CLOSEST I CAN FIND TO 'SLANTING THE LANGUAGE' ^__^

-- Bridget

Post 71

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:15pmSanction this postReply
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~~ It seems safe to say that it adds up to "0" worth of an actually rational justification for their decisions.

LLAP
J:D


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Post 72

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:57pmSanction this postReply
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Well, I'm not Phil [wipes brow, looks up and mouths a thank-you], but I'll 'take a stab' at the answer, Kat ...

It may sound a little Ad nauseam -- but this is probably not the case here, in this instance. I'm leaning toward Amphibology -- if, for no other reason, than that it sounds cool. A convincing case might be made for the Animistic fallacy -- as the animation of others' emotion is at play -- but then Appeal to emotion would seem to be a superior alternative, so so much for that.

Appeal to motive seems exceptionally commensurable with that which has been articulated by 'the good doctor' -- but, in this instance, an Argument from ignorance (the ignorance of a trans-pacific dictaphone) provides ample competitive commensurability to maintain a degree of cautious skepticism, as does the oft-used, rarely uncovered Argument from setting a precedent.

Argumentum ad Capslock is definitely off of the table, as the quote included more smalls than caps -- as can be directly ascertained via visual inspection. Argumentum ad Google might be the sleeping giant here, but more details are needed before passing that Rubicon. The politically-omnipresent Argumentum ad populum is always fair game, when it comes to press releases -- but that broad stroke can be effectively dis-empowered by a skillful combination of Base rate fallacy and Begging the question.

One might accuse the 'interlocuted' of Cherry picking -- but only if one could, simultaneously, avoid a Converse accident. The Definist fallacy just about submits itself, as a dark horse worthy of intellectual focus -- but an especially cunning marriage of the Dicto simpliciter with the Doublespeak argument would seem, to any fair-minded onlooker, to keep this horse in the stables.

The Fallacy of four terms is clearly not at play here, as there are, decisively, more than four terms in the afformentioned quote -- but the Fallacy of misplaced concreteness is especially attractive, and compellingly and groundingly down to earth. Let's not count-out Greedy reductionism -- though 'the Coates Fallacy' might, ultimately, be viewed as a fallacy of Greedy Ambiguity.

A Hasty generalization seems to be at the front of the pack -- though the If-by-whiskey fallacy could be affecting my personal perception on that particular point. Ignoratio elenchi sounds like the name of a man, not a fallacy, but I do, now, digress [hiccup]. As there is something illicit to the thing, either Illicit major or Illicit minor would seem to be rival competitors for the prize of Coates-ness -- but, in order to make the distinction, one would have to rule out having made an Incomplete comparison.

The Infinite regress is too far off on a tangent to even be considered here -- as the Inverse gambler's fallacy eloquently and demonstrably articulates. The Joint effect is, perhaps something that should only be elaborated on behind closed doors -- and, in public, one should ne'er admit to any sort of incrimination by inhalation, else a Juxtaposition of 'living quarters' just might ensue.

Misleading vividness, irreconcilably related to the Joint effect -- is still arguably, at least potentially, a candidate with special and illuminative powers of explanation of the present dynamic. No true Scotsman has already been mentioned above, but it's effect on the needed global scale has not ever been demonstrated, much less the effect of male skirt-wearing, and the consequent drunken middle-agers in pubs -- watching The Simpsons.

The dear-to-all-our-hearts Package-deal fallacy is, perhaps, one of my more favorite picks of the bunch -- but a Parade of horribles stands in my way of reaching that conclusion without psycho-epistemological disfigurement, hence my current confabulations.

The Perfect solution fallacy should not (perhaps ever!) be counted out -- as well as it's current relation to Presentism (literary and historical analysis). Though, contrarily, the Psychologist's fallacy can be discounted a priori -- as it's intractable Questionable cause most-easily leads down to the under-utilized Reductio ad Hitlerum, a special case of the Reductio ad absurdum.

Reification, along with all of its Sciabarrian conceptual schematisms, should be viewed with a wide focus, so as not to fall into a certain sort of Retrospective determinism. A special option is Special pleading, which might lead, via a Spurious relationship to the Style over substance fallacy -- a fallacy eerily similar to that which doctor has implied.

The Suppressed correlative should be 'removed' from the discussion -- and with the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, if necessary. Three men make a tiger sounds more like a rock band, than like a fallacy -- but I do, again, digress. And if we are ever to assess the Truthiness of a certain sort of Wisdom of repugnance, then we should take pains not to engage in Wishful thinking -- all the while heading in the Wrong direction.

Ed
[to any curious, and perhaps stupefied, onlookers -- yes, this is how I 'unwind' after a tough day]

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/19, 12:02am)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/19, 12:04am)

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 4/19, 12:20am)


Post 73

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 6:00amSanction this postReply
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Fallacy of loaded words is listed as a subfallacy of begging the question. I don't think it's a commonly considered one, and even Phil's description

"In a way the Google example is more intellectual and more high level that the posts of many Objectivists, because it doesn't use slanted language to hijack a topic by attacking a *person* (who will then switch to defending himself and counterattacking instead of focusing on the original topic), but to recast an entire *argument* by changing the language of its discussion."

make it seem that ad hominem (in the Oist case) and strawman (in that of Google) are what's really important. Anyway, fallacyfiles.org has a lot that aren't on Wikipedia, so I look forward to your expanded analysis Ed! :)

Post 74

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
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Aaron,

===============
Anyway, fallacyfiles.org has a lot that aren't on Wikipedia, so I look forward to your expanded analysis Ed! :)
===============

Ummm, I really wish you wouldn't have mentioned that (to me).   ;-)

Ed
[I'm afraid to copy & paste the link, but ... but ... I can't help but to ... I can't ... oh ... "my precious!"]


Post 75

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:30amSanction this postReply
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> fallacyfiles.org has a lot that aren't on Wikipedia, so I look forward to your expanded analysis Ed! :) [Aaron]

Yes, it does (including loaded or slanted language). I just spent an hour with it, and so far it is far better organized and essentialized (see the taxonomy). Also, like Ed does (I know he was joking), you don't want to try to utilize or hold in mind ten billion fallacies. One problem I have with logic textbooks and this applies to some of these websites of fallacies as well, is there are too many to be useful. If your toolkit has a screwdriver, a hammer, a cutting instrument or two you are more likely to know how to use them and think of using them than if your (mental) toolkit contains thirty highly specialized tools, one for cutting cheese, one for cutting steak, one for cutting chicken, one for cutting butter, one for cutting soft wood, one for...

Logical fallacies should not be multiplied beyond necessity.

I forgot to mention another -great- example of (blatant and constant--if you are looking for frequent examples) slanting or loading to add to the Googler and the foodfighting Oists: the "spin" doctors who pop out of the woodwork during political campaigns, or working for the two parties at other times. The spin is just a rewording of an event to paint it with nice (or negative) words.

Just watch the Sunday talk shows when they have a Democratic and a Republican Senator side by side, trying to stir up the emotions of the listening audience and the moderator or interviewer shoveling as fast as he can.




Post 76

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:15pmSanction this postReply
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Wrapping this thread up, two summary points:

1. My explanatory posts (#65, #66) were too long. The briefest way to summarize the thinking error is ***the use of slanted language which results in unwarrantedly altering focus or topic of discussion***. (( So it's a combination of two errors, one of language and one of allowing one's focus or discussion to be shifted by this. There are other ways a subject is invalidly changed (for example, as Kat observed, a red herring might be introduced). But the two work together in a harmful way. One error alone might not be so bad, but the combination is lethal and very frequent. ))

2. A minor example of slanting or loading a discussion: I normally shrug off or don't comment on this sort of thing, especially when just a one-shot, tiny matter. But I've decided to be "thin-skinned" on this occasion, because it's a perfect and current example which shows how insidious ofr subtle the error can be.

Sometimes, especially with the Oist foodfights, a relatively small amount of slanted language or disrespect or making a very minor personal aside or comment or personal disapproval leads over time to hard feelings. Here is an example of the sort of thing that is a distraction or irritant (I wouldn't expect it to happen in this case, but on many threads and personal relationships between Oists, small disrespect or "jibes" lead to much greater escalation, widening of the issue, full-scale rebuttal, and counter-rebuttal, claims about honesty....yada, yada...)

> " Professor Phil, You asked us to name the common logical fallacy that the quote illustrates. When you finally gave the answer, it was a name you made up yourself rather than what is usually in the textbooks ". [Post 67]

I'm going to give the reaction anyone might have to reading these two sentences as a response to a a careful argument he has made. It comes across as sort of a sarcastic put-down (not merely as friendly banter or humor). Reading it makes -me- feel irritation at being treated somewhat unjustly or ungratefully for my efforts. Here is why:

(i) I said "logical fallacy or thinking error" not just logical fallacy right up front in my original post.
(ii) I don't think I said whether it was a purely textbook one or one I originated or a combination.
(iii) "Made up yourself" is hostile or negatively loaded...that's an example of a slanted word itself, since "made up" implies fictional, not actual, irresponsible...as opposed to "were clever enough to originally identify yourself" -- which would have a positive spin.
(iv) "When you finally gave the answer" also has an unjustified negativity. Is it inappropriate to drop hints and make people struggle with thinking about a tricky issue? Am I obligated to provide answers to questions on someone else's time schedule? Is having to wait somehow wrong or improper?
(v) Should I take "Professor Phil" as sarcastic and undercutting (implying I'm pedantic or pretentious or a faux academic) or simply humorous and in a friendly spirit as banter? I'm not actually sure.

I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill (and there are far more inappropriate cases), but this is so small -- and therefore something that most people wouldn't even pay attention to -- that it is worth pointing out that ***even something this minor is an example of what to avoid***. Even a -slight- molehill of "taking a shot at a person" rather than just addressing his points, getting distracted in focusing on people rather than just the ideas [PARC/PAR anyone?] is something I see Oists do a lot which -in the intellectual or work arena- lessens effectiveness & -in the personal relationships arena- makes what had been positive vibes turn sour.

Objectivists -love- to take shots at each other (and at people around them).

In fact, here's *another quiz question*: Did I just commit the same mistake of using slanted language in lieu of an argument with the phrase "take a shot at"? What do you think? Should colloquial but emotionally slanted phrases like "take a shot at" and "badmouth" *never* be used?

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Post 77

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 9:39pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

From what Kat told me, she was a bit irritated because she actually researched this. When she doesn't know something, she looks it up. What she found was not what she bought (and the packaging was vague), so she felt cheated. I don't think she meant to be sarcastic in that arrogant "humiliate at all costs" manner we all know so well. She's actually after the knowledge.

I want to make a comment about loaded language. I have nothing against it if it is used for emphasis. Rand went overboard with it constantly, so if Objectivists do this, they learned it from the source. (Still, I think many people simply ape her instead of thinking.)

Using loaded language per se is not a logical fallacy, but it certainly is a warm-up and can be good camouflage. I stand by my earlier post, that the CEO changed the subject. However, I admit that he used loaded language to camouflage that.

Michael


Post 78

Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 11:22pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Researching this is great, I wish more people did so, and that is part of why your answer and Kat's were the two closest to what I "unpacked" in my two posts. Sorry if it seemed I was intending a standard textbook answer, but none of those standard fallacies completely capture the issue. In fact, in my additional puzzle (which is not going to drag on for days), if people try to wrestle with it, I will explain my view which is that the general category of "slanted or loaded language" is not always a fallacy or thinking error [I agree with you on that but I wouldn't say 'emphasis' completely covers the circumstances where it's appropriate].
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 4/19, 11:36pm)


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