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Post 20

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 4:38amSanction this postReply
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Dean:
I reject Cal's assertion that we do not "directly" sense external reality. Our neurons change in their own state when they are influenced by other parts of reality, this is "sense"ing. This is a direct influence, you can't get any more direct then one part of reality influencing another part of reality like an electron exerting force on another electron. This influence directly causes the nerve to change its behavior, it fires electrical impulses differently. The different rates that a neuron can fire are different states. Each state contains information that is directly influenced by external parts of reality. That is how our nervous system gets all of its input.
That's not what I'm saying. You're confusing "sense"ing (neurons firing in response to signals coming from the outside world) with "perception", which entails recognition of the outside world by interpreting the incoming data. Without such interpreting there can be no awareness. You may compare it with the data your compute receives from the Internet: these will directly influence the gates in your computer ("sense"ing), but they still have to be interpreted and sorted out ("perception"), so that you will get readable text or a picture on your screen (or sound from your loudspeakers). BTW, I also use your term "sense"ing, as "sensing" can also be used as a synonym for "perception", which would only increase the confusion.

Post 21

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 5:06amSanction this postReply
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I should say that I agree with Cal fully on this: "Perception is not merely receiving signals from the outside world. It is a process wherein the brain constructs an interpretation," but yet not on this: "i.e. a model of the outside world on the basis of these signals and on what is stored in memory" with the implication that it is not reality that we are perceiving.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 1/18, 11:19am)


Post 22

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 7:18amSanction this postReply
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Cal seems to be arguing that in order to perceive reality directly perception must be passive, a mere receptor for whatever evidences are available from reality. However, since perception is not passive we therefore do not perceive reality directly.

The error is in the first premise. It is not the case that direct perception of reality requires passivity. In fact, perception is an active process and it is by that active process that we perceive reality directly. Bill, in post #17, has it correct.

Perception is not in any way interpretation. Perception provides the data that is the basis for interpretation. Perception is the automatic physical process that converts sensations into a particular form, the form in which we directly perceive reality.

Interpretation depends on thinking, on the choice to focus.

Post 23

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 7:49amSanction this postReply
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Do not forget in this discussion that the issue of the perceiving pertains to all animals, not just humans, so in claiming not perceiving reality is a claiming nothing perceives reality.

Post 24

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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Rick:
Perception is not in any way interpretation.
Oh yes, it is. Just look it up in the dictionary, for example: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/perception : Recognition and interpretation of sensory stimuli based chiefly on memory. Collins English Dictionary: the process by which an organism detects and interprets information from the external world by means of the sensory receptors. The New Shorter Oxford Dictionary of the English Language: the neurophysiological processes, including memory, by which an organism becomes aware of and interprets external stimuli.

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Post 25

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
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Robert:
Do not forget in this discussion that the issue of the perceiving pertains to all animals, not just humans, so in claiming not perceiving reality is a claiming nothing perceives reality.
Did anyone claim that we don't perceive reality?

Post 26

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 9:21amSanction this postReply
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Cal, those dictionaries are operating on faulty philosophical premises. I realize that many people include "interpretation" in their definition of perception. Those people are wrong.

A thermometer "perceives" the relative speed of molecules and can present that "perception" in various digital and analog forms. The thermometer does no interpretation. It merely presents the facts in various forms. Our perception works similarly.

In your example of the far away object, our interpretation that it is really a large object that is far away rather than a small, near object is based on our perception of that object plus other perceptions and knowledge that we have. We do not perceive it as a large, far away object -- we perceive the object and then interpret that it is such. Two separate actions.

Post 27

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 10:18amSanction this postReply
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Rick, don't you mean sensation does not require interpretation? To me it is all too clear that perception does require mental activity--albeit largely automatized. Even if the science had nothing to say on this, I would know it by introspection.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 1/18, 11:26am)


Post 28

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Are you not confusing perception with conception?

Post 29

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:25amSanction this postReply
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No, I am not, Robert, but I've edited to more closely reflect my view. Thank you.

The main point being that the raw data do require some processing in the mind/brain to yield perception. However, I most emphatically reject Cal's view that we are perceiving a model rather than perceiving reality.


Post 30

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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Rodney:
The main point being that the raw data do require some processing in the mind/brain to yield perception. However, I most emphatically reject Cal's view that we are perceiving a model rather than perceiving reality.
That's not what I said. See my post 19.

Post 31

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 12:36pmSanction this postReply
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Yes, Cal, you said  
We don't "perceive the model," but perceiving reality is building a model of reality.
But your idea of a "model" really puts you in the same camp, despite your wording. A model is a representation, a test, which you then look at. Your view leaves out the idea of true awareness. Perhaps your real name is Daniel Barnes? (Who used to be our resident Popperian.)


Post 32

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
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If the following is what is being said, I have no problem with it:

1. Living creatures with awareness receive data from specific parts of reality through sense organs.
2. Such data exists outside and independently of any living creature and its awareness.
3. A brain (and the mind within) makes a mental unit of the data received.
4. Such mental unit can be called a "model" as a synonym.

Thus perception can be understood in two phases: (1) data input, and (2) inner processing into mental units.

However, as words usually have more than one definition, I believe that when Peikoff talks about direct perception, he is (a) referring mainly to the data input part, (b) stressing that reality exists independent of the perceiver, and (c) claiming that data input comes before inner processing time-wise. I don't think he is confused about what perception is and stating that it is "direct" in the sense that it means processing coming before input or, worse, lumping the two phases together as an indivisible whole.

Michael

Post 33

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney,

No. I meant what I said. It requires conscious mental activity to deal with perceptions, but the perceptions themselves are fully automatic.

It is perceptions that are presented to our consciousness for further processing. The brain may play a part in certain types of perception formation but that is below the level of conscious awareness and is just the final step(s) in the chain that starts with the sense organ and ends with a percept.

Any knowledge we have of sensations is discovered, conceptual knowledge. Sensations are not immediately available to our consciousness.

This is my understanding of the Objectivist position from reading The Evidence of the Senses and listening to tapes by Kelley and by Binswanger.

Post 34

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 2:56pmSanction this postReply
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Rick, that is almost what I believe, but I suppose the main difference is that I think some of the brain activity in perception is not entirely "below the level of conscious awareness," to use your words, and that it is even partly in our volitional control. (That is, we can partly "turn off" or stop the interpretive process.) I realize this is contrary to what Rand said.

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Post 35

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 3:23pmSanction this postReply
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Rodney:
But your idea of a "model" really puts you in the same camp, despite your wording. A model is a representation, a test, which you then look at. Your view leaves out the idea of true awareness. Perhaps your real name is Daniel Barnes? (Who used to be our resident Popperian.)
No, it's wrong to say that we "look" at the model, the model is the way we interpret the incoming data. Take for example the Necker cube: here two different perception models are possible, and we can switch between them. But we don't look at the models (that would be the fallacy of the Cartesian theatre), we look at the real world and use the model for a representation in our brain of that real world, the model is our awareness. This example has a complication in that the Necker cube usually is presented as a drawing, i.e. lines on a 2-dimensional surface, in which case it is a perception of a virtual world, but similar ambiguities can also be realized with real 3-dimensional objects.

I've no idea who Daniel Barnes is.

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Post 36

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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I miss Daniel.

Post 37

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 3:43pmSanction this postReply
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Cal, perhaps you could tell us what you disagree with in the following statement, which is from Rand's IOE:

Although, chronologically, man's consciousness develops in three stages: the stage of sensations, the perceptual, the conceptual--epistemologically, the base of all of man's knowledge is the perceptual stage.

Sensations, as such, are not retained in man's memory, nor is man able to experience a pure isolated sensation. As far as can be ascertained, an infant's sensory experience is an undifferentiated chaos. Discriminated awareness begins on the level of percepts.

A percept is a group of sensations automatically retained and integrated by the brain of a living organism. It is in the form of percepts that man grasps the evidence of his senses and apprehends reality. When we speak of "direct perception" or "direct awareness," we mean the perceptual level. Percepts, not sensations, are the given, the self-evident. The knowledge of sensations as components of percepts is not direct, it is acquired by man much later: it is a scientific, conceptual discovery.... (It may be supposed that the concept "existent" is implicit even on the level of sensations--if and to the extent that a consciousness is able to discriminate on that level. A sensation is a sensation of something, as distinguished from the nothing of the preceding and succeeding moments. A sensation does not tell man what exists, but only that it exists.) (p. 5)

Also, according to Objectivism, man is aware of reality, not of some representation of reality from which he infers its existence, which is what is meant by a "direct" perception or "direct" awareness in this context. According to you, neither perception nor awareness can be direct, because it involves "interpretation," by which you evidently mean what Objectivism means by an "integration of sensations." If so, then we may be arguing at cross purposes, using different words to mean essentially the same thing.

- Bill

Post 38

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 5:11pmSanction this postReply
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I didn't actually believe you were Barnes, for various reasons. But I thought I saw a similarity. I suspect as Bill does now, that your view is not too different from mine when we get past the wordings and metaphors.

Except for this: if you agree with the final quote in Warren's first post, then our differences still stand; and I still disagree with you about the pain in the arm.


Post 39

Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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The question seems to be: what is now exactly the Objectivist viewpoint? What Rand writes or what Peikoff writes? The Rand quote doesn't really seem to contradict what I've said in this thread. She does stress the difference between sensations and percepts and tells us that perception is the result of integration of sensations. Peikoff on the other hand seems to skip the "sensations" stage altogether, he talks about direct perception that is mediated by the senses. My conclusion is that the Wikipedia article is not contrary to what Rand writes, it just elaborates a bit on the "integration" part. Peikoff is a different matter. But who cares what Peikoff writes? Didn't he say himself somewhere that only what Rand has written belongs to Objectivism?



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